"Encounter level"

[CBikle]

Re: "Encounter level"

 

When I GM, I try to keep the damage classes around the same levels as the PC's; maybe going a little higher or lower, but not significantly so.

 

If you use moderation, it also helps prevent an arms race of escalating power-levels.

[ghost-angel]

Re: "Encounter level"

 

Well, so what? Are you saying HERO is too good to bother to provide some guidance? That it's only for "true masters"? What the heck is wrong with giving people somewhere to start? How else does a player attain mastery? Ten pages out of 5ER's 592 is all we get?

 

Metaphor: I've been playing guitar for about 20 years. Guitar (i.e., music) is an infinitely more complex, involved, and subjective endeavor than playing HERO. None of this has prevented the existence of lots of great teaching aids. If a book can set me on the path to comping jazz, a book can help people get better at using HERO.

 

Apologies if I sound a little miffed. I just don't buy the idea that gaging NPCs is somehow beyond explanantion.

 

Yeah, but when you form a chord on a guitar it comes out the same every time.

 

Players are not nearly so predictable.

 

The Rule Of X provided in Champions is a good guideline for what you are looking for, however. So it does exist within the system.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Encounter level"

 

Well, so what? Are you saying HERO is too good to bother to provide some guidance? That it's only for "true masters"? What the heck is wrong with giving people somewhere to start? How else does a player attain mastery? Ten pages out of 5ER's 592 is all we get?

 

Metaphor: I've been playing guitar for about 20 years. Guitar (i.e., music) is an infinitely more complex, involved, and subjective endeavor than playing HERO. None of this has prevented the existence of lots of great teaching aids. If a book can set me on the path to comping jazz, a book can help people get better at using HERO.

 

Apologies if I sound a little miffed. I just don't buy the idea that gaging NPCs is somehow beyond explanantion.

Very well, don't wait for other people to provide you with it, impress us with your brilliance and come up with one on your own.

 

Even if you do come up with one, every other GM on these boards will pick it apart or ignore it in favor of their own methods. Because ultimately just as most craftsmen prefer their own set of tools so to do most GMs develop and use their own tools.

 

That may not be true in the world of a cookie cutter D&D campaign, but it is true of most HERO System GMs because the nature of the HERO System is ROLL YOUR OWN.

 

Anyway, good luck with that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: "Encounter level"

 

To echo KS . . . given that the system tells you to pick power levels and adjust to taste, how could it possibly provide guidelines as you start to mix Active Point Levels, OCV/DCV Levels, Damage Classes, Movement Levels (and Types), Point Totals (especially if you mix them!), Advantage limits and types . . .

 

The nature of Hero regarding how a game is built almost defies a guideline for "encounter levels" completely.

[buzz]

Re: "Encounter level"

 

Very well' date=' don't wait for other people to provide you with it, impress us with your brilliance and come up with one on your own.[/quote']

I already preemptively apologized for my frustrated tone, so I think your tone here is uncalled for.

 

I haven't made any claims to brilliance, so I don't know where you're getting the idea I have some magic answer; that's the whole reason I'm interested in this subject. I've asked the "encounter levels" question and have seen others ask it many times. Obviously, it's something people don't grok just from initial contact with the system. I am glad to see people sharing their experiences in this thread.

 

But, obviously, since the question is getting asked, I think that it's something the company should address. At least, it's something I'd like to see them address. If anyone could provide useful analysis of the system and provide advice, I think it'd be the people who write the books.

[buzz]

Re: "Encounter level"

 

The Rule Of X provided in Champions is a good guideline for what you are looking for' date=' however. So it does exist within the system.[/quote']

Thanks for pointing that out, g-a.

[buzz]

Re: "Encounter level"

 

To echo KS . . . given that the system tells you to pick power levels and adjust to taste' date=' how could it possibly provide guidelines as you start to mix Active Point Levels, OCV/DCV Levels, Damage Classes, Movement Levels (and Types), Point Totals (especially if you mix them!), Advantage limits and types . . .[/quote']

I think it's a given that, while there may be some general techniques a GM can use (e.g., looking at average rolls and damage classes), you really need to have the campaign guidelines in place before getting specific. I.e., once you've "set the dials" and gotten to the "cookie cutter" stage, as Killer Shrike puts it. I'm not claiming that there's a single metric/method you could apply equally to a supers game and a gritty horror game.

 

I dunno. I think that if one can assess whether a PC is minmaxed or fits within a campaign (which the text near the "Rule of X" sidebar in Champs addresses), one should be able to assess challenges, too.

 

I dunno. I'm sure that you and KS have GM'ed a lot more HERO than I have. I'm running a Star HERO game in a few weeks and this subject has been on my mind. I'm simply looking for insight and thinking aloud how I wish there was more on this subject in the published books. It's entirely possible I'll come out at the end of this campaign and realize that there is really no way to make any assessment, but the simple fact that numbers are involved makes me doubtful. Yes, even accounting for the human factor.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: "Encounter level"

 

I have some very loose guidelines when it comes to "encounters" in any Hero game I run (except a Supers game...there's so much variation in that genre that it doesn't really apply there)

 

Compare:

 

Combat Value:

--compare basic CV. CV that are within 1 to 2pts within each other should be a fairly even fight. Any more than that, it begins to become 1 sided.

 

Skill Levels:

--Skill levels cancel each out on a point for point basis (for the most part). If one opponent has significantly more than than the other add the excess to basic CV then re-compare.

 

Speed Values:

--Every point of speed difference indicates an increase in difficulty level.

 

Damage Values:

--compare Damage Class against applical Defense value. If DC is less than the Defense value, then the threat is minimal. If DC is equal to the Defense Value (or within 1 point above or below) the threat is about even. If the DC is significantly above Defense Value, then the threat is deadly. If DC is more than twice the defense value, death is almost assured.

 

Those are very basic guidelines. There's a lot more variables than that in HERO (Presence attacks, Mental Powers, Adjustment powers etc) but they apply in most typical combat situations found in Fantasy and Sci-Fi genres.

[ghost-angel]

Re: "Encounter level"

 

I think it's a given that, while there may be some general techniques a GM can use (e.g., looking at average rolls and damage classes), you really need to have the campaign guidelines in place before getting specific. I.e., once you've "set the dials" and gotten to the "cookie cutter" stage, as Killer Shrike puts it. I'm not claiming that there's a single metric/method you could apply equally to a supers game and a gritty horror game.

 

I dunno. I think that if one can assess whether a PC is minmaxed or fits within a campaign (which the text near the "Rule of X" sidebar in Champs addresses), one should be able to assess challenges, too.

 

I dunno. I'm sure that you and KS have GM'ed a lot more HERO than I have. I'm running a Star HERO game in a few weeks and this subject has been on my mind. I'm simply looking for insight and thinking aloud how I wish there was more on this subject in the published books. It's entirely possible I'll come out at the end of this campaign and realize that there is really no way to make any assessment, but the simple fact that numbers are involved makes me doubtful. Yes, even accounting for the human factor.

 

It's not that there's no way to make an assessment. It's that it really has to be done on a case by case basis. Making it very difficult, at best, to come up with a written set of guidelines.

[buzz]

Re: "Encounter level"

 

It's not that there's no way to make an assessment. It's that it really has to be done on a case by case basis. Making it very difficult' date=' at best, to come up with a written set of guidelines.[/quote']

I might not be making myself clear about what I mean by "guidelines."

 

I'm not asking for a universal CR-like system that applies to all possible variations/implementations of HERO; I agree there are far too many variables for that. What I'm talking about is a general approach and/or process for making assessments once the campaign limits have been set in place. As evidenced by this thread, GMs do this all the time. I just think it'd be cool for Hero Games to codify this knowledge in the hopes of fostering more "virtuoso" GMs. I'd love to see Steve, Darren, or whomever break down a scenario and build it up again. "Okay, let's assume we're in a Standard Superheroic campaign, and our PCs are the Champions. Let's build an adventure where they face off against Grond and VIPER. First off..." I'd totally pay money for that. Even just an example like that would give people a lot of direction, IMO.

 

(And, heck, if someone wants to give that a go right here, please do so.)

 

And to make a point about D&D... D&D is far less formalized than HERO. D&D design is about making stuff up out of thin air, eyeballing it, and saying, "Yeah, that seems about a CR2." D&D has no finite set of components from which everything in the D&D universe is built. It's effects-based and very subjective.

 

HERO otoh, does. It's powers-based, as we all know. Every HERO construct, by definition, tells you what it is and how it interacts with the system. This is a primary strength of HERO. Ergo, if anything, it should be easier to gauge for challenge than D&D.

 

My point is simply that there's very little published guidance on this front, and I'd like to see more.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Encounter level"

 

The D&D approach isn't perfect either, and it makes a lot of assumptions. I recall a Dungeon letter commenting on a creature with a CR 5 seeming very overppowered when it was pitted against a group of 4 l5 characters. It had very high hit dice, and good damage.

 

The answer to the letter? Well, any group of L5 characters should have a fireball or lightning bolt to soften up the creature, so that gets rid of the hp advantage. Really? Every L5 group always has a character with one of those two specific spells, and they'll always have an opportunity to use it at sufficient range to not catch their own members in the blast? The same issue that one specific group may differ from the assumptions exists there as well.

 

The drawback to the D&D approach is that the GM commonly uses the CR without exercising any judgement. For anyone who's never had the thrill of a GM who excuses any problems with "That's what the module says", I envy you...

 

I agree that more guidance on how to measure Hero combat effectiveness would also be nice, but implying judgement need not remain a key component is, in my opinion, a serious error.

[buzz]

Re: "Encounter level"

 

I agree that more guidance on how to measure Hero combat effectiveness would also be nice' date=' but implying judgement need not remain a key component is, in my opinion, a serious error.[/quote']

I am in no way trying to imply that, Hugh. As a veteran D&D player, I know how subjective CR can be. I also know that it's still a very useful tool.

[ghost-angel]

Re: "Encounter level"

 

I think I get what you're after.

 

Perhaps what you want, instead of a Hero CR (to use a concept) is a "How To Build a Hero CR For Your Game" type of guideline.

 

What factors to look at, how things might compare, the importance (or unimportance) of Active Cost vs Damage Class.

 

Basically a How To look at these characters and guage what they're capable of; finding strengths and weaknesses to play against them.

[buzz]

Re: "Encounter level"

 

Exactamundo! An "Okay, you've set all the point guidelines and rules for your campaign; let's look at ways you can gauge what kinds of opponents you can throw at your players" kind of thing.

[ghost-angel]

Re: "Encounter level"

 

Ok, I see a use for that. Sounds like it'd make a killer Digital Hero article.

[buzz]

Re: "Encounter level"

 

Cool. Apologies to everyone if I derailed the thread in the process of explaining what the heck I meant.