New Mechanic: Reach

[schir1964]

Reach (Special)

Reach defines the amount of distance that a character can affect targets innately. Anything within that distance can be affected by the character (barring obstacles, barriers, and so forth). When a character is reaching to affect a target, the character is by default susceptible to being affected in all the hexes covered. Limbs is the most common SFX for most characters, but this is not a requirement. The character can only reach for one target at any one time. Reach is visible by default and the amount of reach a character has is obvious. A character may conceal the total reach they have with the Extensible/Retractable advantage. Reach does not impart Indirect by default. Reach does not have Non-Combat inches.

 

Cost: 2 Points Per 1" Reach

 

Modifiers

 

Advantages

Increased Targets (+1 Per Doubling): The character may affect double the number of targets at any one time.

Extensible/Retractable (+1/2): The character's inches of reach is adjustable from 1" to the max inches purchased.

[The Souljourner]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

How is this different from stretching?

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

Reach does not allow Indirect attacks by default.

 

Addendum: Reach is fixed and static. You can't change the number of inches. What I mean is that visibly (SFX) the character can't change the inches. The character can use reach to affect anything "within" the maximum. Bad phrasing on my part. Sorry about that.

[SpydirShellX]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

Hmmm....

Can't you just limit stretching to get the effect of no Indirect attacks and only to an exact amount of inches?

 

Also, it would seem that you could do the same thing with the limited stretching and extra limbs for the increased targets.

 

Not to mention that the SFX of something that can reach out to exactly some number of inches (no more) seems rather lacking in something it would model.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

Hmmm....

Can't you just limit stretching to get the effect of no Indirect attacks and only to an exact amount of inches?

 

Also, it would seem that you could do the same thing with the limited stretching and extra limbs for the increased targets.

 

Not to mention that the SFX of something that can reach out to exactly some number of inches (no more) seems rather lacking in something it would model.

Both Reach and the Manipulation mechanics were results in an the analysis of what exactly Limbs are mechanically. So these two needed to be defined as mechanics before I could address Limbs as a more flexible power than Extra Limbs.

 

In answer to your first question, technically yes. But combining Stretching with Extra Limbs results in some problems with how they mesh. Plus the definition of each are really different. Stretching by default allows any part of your body x number of inches. Reach allows you to take a specific SFX that has x number of inches of reach. You can't move it around like you can Stretching.

 

A humans arms are always the same length regardless of how they bend. Stretching falls short of that SFX, which I think you would agree would be the most common SFX. Stretching is geared for Superheroes and Sci-Fi where normal limbs won't cut it.

 

Therefore, the Reach mechanic makes more sense for normal limbs or robot limbs, while Stretching makes more sense for Plastic Man, Reed Richards, and so forth (the fantastic).

 

For more extensive discussions, see the Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power? thread.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[SpydirShellX]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

Both Reach and the Manipulation mechanics were results in an the analysis of what exactly Limbs are mechanically. So these two needed to be defined as mechanics before I could address Limbs as a more flexible power than Extra Limbs.

 

In answer to your first question, technically yes. But combining Stretching with Extra Limbs results in some problems with how they mesh. Plus the definition of each are really different. Stretching by default allows any part of your body x number of inches. Reach allows you to take a specific SFX that has x number of inches of reach. You can't move it around like you can Stretching.

 

A humans arms are always the same length regardless of how they bend. Stretching falls short of that SFX, which I think you would agree would be the most common SFX. Stretching is geared for Superheroes and Sci-Fi where normal limbs won't cut it.

 

Therefore, the Reach mechanic makes more sense for normal limbs or robot limbs, while Stretching makes more sense for Plastic Man, Reed Richards, and so forth (the fantastic).

 

However, you can generally bend at the elbow or move your limb around slightly to touch things within that area. Which is why stretching allows for distances out to a particular point.... and why foci bought as Stretching can also be used for hitting in close - despite having even less ability to bend around than even normal limbs.

 

I believe that moving limbs around things is the original source of the Indirect included in the power.

 

For more extensive discussions, see the Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power? thread.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Yes... much more extensive... been keeping up with it mostly until I decided that the repeat level on both sides of the argument was getting too high.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

Both Reach and the Manipulation mechanics were results in an the analysis of what exactly Limbs are mechanically. So these two needed to be defined as mechanics before I could address Limbs as a more flexible power than Extra Limbs.

 

In answer to your first question, technically yes. But combining Stretching with Extra Limbs results in some problems with how they mesh. Plus the definition of each are really different. Stretching by default allows any part of your body x number of inches. Reach allows you to take a specific SFX that has x number of inches of reach. You can't move it around like you can Stretching.

 

So you are proposing, I take it, that we add Manipulation and Reach to Extra Limbs and Stretching, retaining all of these mechanics. IOW, your intent is not to replace, but to add more mechanics.

 

I think your Reach "specific distance, no more and no less" would be very uncommon. What ability would require, for example, exactly a 5" reach - nothing further away, and nothing closer? Does someone who purchased +5" Reach now lose the ability to sip a beverage ior eat a meal? He can't get the cup or the fork within 25' of his mouth!

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

However' date=' you can generally bend at the elbow or move your limb around slightly to touch things within that area. Which is why stretching allows for distances out to a particular point.... and why foci bought as Stretching can also be used for hitting in close - despite having even less ability to bend around than even normal limbs.[/quote']

You have a point. I think that reach should be allowed to affect anything "within" the maximum range, but perhaps with a penalty just as certain weapons have a penalty for close range. My main thing was that the visibilility of the SFX would be obvious and all. Not sure how I word it the main description though.

 

I believe that moving limbs around things is the original source of the Indirect included in the power.

I don't think so. I think it's the influence of the superhero comics. Remember, Indirect for Stretching allows the character to hit the target from behind even though they are facing them. I don't think that is based on normal limbs.

 

Yes... much more extensive... been keeping up with it mostly until I decided that the repeat level on both sides of the argument was getting too high.

Yeah, it got more interesting near the end.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

So you are proposing' date=' I take it, that we add Manipulation and Reach to Extra Limbs and Stretching, retaining all of these mechanics. IOW, your intent is not to replace, but to add more mechanics.[/quote']

Well, as I said before. I had problems with them as defined. If they included these mechanics as part of thier definition and was changed so you could build from the ground up. Yes, I would be fine with that.

 

Extra Limbs has that annoying restriction of being "Extra" instead of just being any limb as it were.

 

Stretching has many built-in benefits that are hard to extricate. Ideally they should be modifiers for flexibility, but that's how I prefer mechanics to work. It's not for everyone.

 

I think your Reach "specific distance' date=' no more and no less" would be very uncommon. What ability would require, for example, exactly a 5" reach - nothing further away, and nothing closer? Does someone who purchased +5" Reach now lose the ability to sip a beverage ior eat a meal? He can't get the cup or the fork within 25' of his mouth![/quote']

As I said, I really wasn't thinking about it in that way. Only on the visible side of it. But I'll see what I can do to word it better in the description.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

Clarified my original response as to what I meant. My phrasing gave a completely different impression of how I envisioned the mechanic actually working.

 

Sorry about that.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[MadCatBob]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

Wouldn't a similar effect be reached by applying Ranged to STR?

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

...if you culd apply ranged to STR

 

OK, my problem with reach, in the generic sense, is that it costs too much.

 

Look at the large character templates and certainly for the bigger characters reach is the most expensive element of the whole shebang, which seems daft: a few inches of reach are usseful, a lot of reach is mroe useful but not proportionately so.

 

IF I were to consider this sort of option then I would distinguish it from stretching as follows:

 

REACH: (can ONLY be used for charatcers with the 'larger than normal' template) 5 points for 1" of reach and +5 points for each doubling.

 

Note that any 'limb based extentend reach' IS going to have elements of indirect - stretching only has indirect because it can go around barriers, and anything with joints can do something similar.

 

My solution would be different though: build a set of appropriate limitations and/or advantages for stretching and make stretching an awful lot cheaper.

 

Stretching: 1"=2 points. Stretching does not allow you to move but IS considered a movement power.

 

'Stretching with limbs'

0 END Persistent Always on and specific predefined body parts only (-1/2), 'no NCM' -1/4 (+1 in advantages and -1 in limitations)

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

Wouldn't a similar effect be reached by applying Ranged to STR?

 

On this point, arguably, the cost of applying range to strength should serve as a guide to the maximum realistic cost.

 

Say you have 60 STR, adding range (if you could) would cost 30 points and give you up to 300" of reach. Cool. Arguably you need a level of indirect too, so 37 points.

 

For your 37 points you could afford 7 1/2 inches of stretching. Mad? I think so.

 

Using my 'reach formula' you could get out to about 80" for 37 points and using my recosted stretching, you could make 18 1/2 inches.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

On this point, arguably, the cost of applying range to strength should serve as a guide to the maximum realistic cost.

 

Say you have 60 STR, adding range (if you could) would cost 30 points and give you up to 300" of reach. Cool. Arguably you need a level of indirect too, so 37 points.

 

For your 37 points you could afford 7 1/2 inches of stretching. Mad? I think so.

 

Using my 'reach formula' you could get out to about 80" for 37 points and using my recosted stretching, you could make 18 1/2 inches.

 

I don't think this is fully comparable. I'd say you need to make your STR both Ranged and No Range Modifier, for a total of +1.

 

This would then be appropriately compared to Stretching, No Noncombat, No Damage Adder, No Indirect. What should that be, -1 in aggregate?

 

So your STR costs 60 points, for which you can get 24" of limited Stretching.

 

For another comparison, say you bought STR with Limited Range (+1/4) instead of full Range. That's 45 points (18" of Stretching). How much would you require a character to reduce range on a 60 AP power to get the "limited range" limitation? How often will the ability to attack beyond 18" range be useful?

 

Of course, if we take different STR levels, we get different results since the STR AP will change the range from adding the Ranged advantage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

Reach (Special)

Reach defines the amount of distance that a character can affect targets innately. Anything within that distance can be affected by the character (barring obstacles, barriers, and so forth). When a character is reaching to affect a target, the character is by default susceptible to being affected in all the hexes covered. Limbs is the most common SFX for most characters, but this is not a requirement. The character can only reach for one target at any one time. Reach is visible by default and the amount of reach a character has is obvious. A character may conceal the total reach they have with the Extensible/Retractable advantage. Reach does not impart Indirect by default.

 

Cost: 2 Points Per 1" Reach

 

Modifiers

 

Advantages

Increased Targets (+1 Per Doubling): The character may affect double the number of targets at any one time.

Extensible/Retractable (+1/2): The character's inches of reach is adjustable from 1" to the max inches purchased.

 

So I can spend 2 points for 1" reach, plus another 3 for Increased Targets, add a +1/2 advantage for "Retractable" and pay a total of 7 points (assuming I get no Reach by default, of course). I now possess the ability to attack up to 8 people within 1" of my character.

 

This sounds like a way better deal for Grond than those two extra arms he currently has! Anyone in melee range gets attacked every phase.

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

I don't think this is fully comparable. I'd say you need to make your STR both Ranged and No Range Modifier, for a total of +1.

 

This would then be appropriately compared to Stretching, No Noncombat, No Damage Adder, No Indirect. What should that be, -1 in aggregate?

 

So your STR costs 60 points, for which you can get 24" of limited Stretching.

 

For another comparison, say you bought STR with Limited Range (+1/4) instead of full Range. That's 45 points (18" of Stretching). How much would you require a character to reduce range on a 60 AP power to get the "limited range" limitation? How often will the ability to attack beyond 18" range be useful?

 

Of course, if we take different STR levels, we get different results since the STR AP will change the range from adding the Ranged advantage.

 

I agree with some of what you say. The limits on stretching should not include 'no indirect' because having long limbs with joints will give you just as much indirect as most stretching (i.e. you can reach around stuff).

 

The 'limited range' idea gives you 30, not 45 points for your stretching, doesn't it? (60 STR + limited range (+1/4) and indirect = 90 points), so that is worth 6" of combat stretching, or 10 1/2" of limited stretching (assuming -3/4 worth of limitations). I would not pay the added substantial cost of 'no range modifiers' advantage when you could do the same thing much cheaper at the ranges we are talking about with PSLs.

 

Even then, a lot of combats are going to take place exclusively inside that range.

 

60 STR was taken as a highish figure to give stretching a chance. For someone with only 15 or 20 strength, the comparison would be laughable.

 

Frankly the ability to attack at some range is undervalued in most games where we just don't build characters the 'logical' way i.e. blasters with a few range PSLs taking out targets from a few hundred metres away, simply because we tend to play on tabletops rather than using the whole of the ground floor of the house. Yes, I know: cover....even so blasters, especially villain blasters who are free to cause untold collateral damage, probably shouldn't be hovering just a few metres from the guy who can crush a Buick without breaking a sweat.

 

OTOH if range is not used as it could be, making attacks ranged with stretching (or whatever) probably should not cost much.

 

I suggested making stretching a movement power that did not allow movement (it enables you to advantage it with 'can also be used as .... mode, with swinging or running), for 2 points per inch.

 

I know I have said this before but what can you do with stretching that you can't do with a movement power? Movement is indirect (you can go round) and allows 'velocity damage', albeit at a penalty to OCV, which seems appropriate. What stretching allows that other movement powers do not is for you to be in two places simultanously, in effect, but the lack of actual ability to mvoe with the power should balance that.

 

Oh, and I'd say 'no NCM', but allow you to stretch limbs in opposite directions simultanously as a non-combat 'move', which would have the same effect.

 

The other way to simulate limited reach would be with a limited area effect advantage. Someone else can work that one out.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

I knew I was forgetting something as far as differences.

No Noncombat is the default for Reach.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

So I can spend 2 points for 1" reach, plus another 3 for Increased Targets, add a +1/2 advantage for "Retractable" and pay a total of 7 points (assuming I get no Reach by default, of course). I now possess the ability to attack up to 8 people within 1" of my character.

 

This sounds like a way better deal for Grond than those two extra arms he currently has! Anyone in melee range gets attacked every phase.

Hugh, you seem to talking the mechanics without any regard to any SFX involved.

 

If my character has two arms (SFX, then it makes sense to buy Reach with 2x modifer, but it doesn't make sense to buy 4x for Reach. The whole point of having mechanics is simulate SFX, so if the SFX doesn't match the mechanic, the build is invalid and should be rejected.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

Sean, I'm still mulling over you posts and I need to be leaving soon.

 

Why didn't you bring all this up over at GIR so I could hammer it out before hand? (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

So I can spend 2 points for 1" reach, plus another 3 for Increased Targets, add a +1/2 advantage for "Retractable" and pay a total of 7 points (assuming I get no Reach by default, of course). I now possess the ability to attack up to 8 people within 1" of my character.

 

This sounds like a way better deal for Grond than those two extra arms he currently has! Anyone in melee range gets attacked every phase.

 

Hugh, you seem to talking the mechanics without any regard to any SFX involved.

 

If my character has two arms (SFX, then it makes sense to buy Reach with 2x modifer, but it doesn't make sense to buy 4x for Reach. The whole point of having mechanics is simulate SFX, so if the SFX doesn't match the mechanic, the build is invalid and should be rejected.

 

You are presenting mechanics without any indication of the SFX they might present. Unless we assume NO ONE can ever have the SFX to use the mechanic, I think there is a problem here. If we do assume that, why do we need the mechanic? No one will ever use it.

 

To select an SFX, let us imagine simply that Grond mutates further and now has 8 arms instead of four. For the price of 7 points, based on your mechanics, he can now attack anyone in melee range of him at full strength. Is this your intention?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

I agree with some of what you say. The limits on stretching should not include 'no indirect' because having long limbs with joints will give you just as much indirect as most stretching (i.e. you can reach around stuff).

 

I normally envision the Indirect aspect of Stretching allowing more flexibility than joints do (ie you can touch your left elbow with your left hand), but no big issue there.

 

The 'limited range' idea gives you 30' date=' not 45 points for your stretching, doesn't it? (60 STR + limited range (+1/4) and indirect = 90 points)

 

I left Indirect out (and +1/2 Indirect is probably closer to what Stretching provides). However, I included No Range Modifier (+1/2). My recollection is that Stretching does not suffer from range penalties. Am I misrecalling?

 

Your point on getting the functional equivalent with PSL's works at 16", but not at the 300" your 60 STR with Range would receive.

 

I historically considered Stretching overprice, but the damage addition in 5er alleviates that somewhat. I'm still not convinced it is properly a movement power, or that the price is now right. On the other hand, with that +1d6 Damage, it's a lot like a Hand Attack with Range, albeit limited range, and Indirect, so maybe it's closing in on the right cost.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

My recollection is that Stretching does not suffer from range penalties. Am I misrecalling?

Correction: Stretching does not suffer range penalties.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

.................

 

I historically considered Stretching overprice, but the damage addition in 5er alleviates that somewhat. I'm still not convinced it is properly a movement power, or that the price is now right. On the other hand, with that +1d6 Damage, it's a lot like a Hand Attack with Range, albeit limited range, and Indirect, so maybe it's closing in on the right cost.

 

Interestingly enough movement powers give equivalent damage bonuses, if you use them for move throughs: 1DC for 3". It all begins to make sense....and if it was a movement power you'd have to do a move through manouvre (with the appropriate penalties and problems) to get the damage bonus.

 

Oh, and you don't take range penalties to OCV on stretching attacks, although arguably you should. However if you (say) shoot a fireblast from your (stretched) fist 8" away you take the full range panalty from your actual position to the target not from your stretched fist to the target. At least that is my reading of it.

 

PSLs are still cheaper for the range penalty, which is -14 at 300", so would cost 21 poitns as opposed to 30 for the advantage 'no range penalty', which is only really worth it for megascale range or 'increased maximum range' attacks.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Reach

 

Bump.

 

- Christopher Mullins