Optional NCM

[Rob_Knotts]

For my first FH game, I plan to make NCM optional - but with a few catches. First, it won't be common but it also won't be unsual for spells to be written with NCM in mind. I'm not quite sure what euphemism to use: fated, blessed, epic, something like that, but it'll come up for some Detect spells and power Limiations (Only works on "Fated" characters).

 

The other catch will be that most, if not all racial packages will include NCM, although each race is also likely to have slightly altered NCMs (higher STR/lower INT, that sort of thing). My philosphy is that these packages will also be optional (your character can be an Orc with or w/o the package, but the package has some benefits), and even if they do use a package there's nothing forcing them to buy up stats above the maximums.

 

Characters who don't pick NCM or any racial packages have more freedom, but some spells will be designed specifically for them, and the packages will include some advantages they can't get elsewhere (aside from a modified NCM). For example, I don't like flying characters, they complicate things a lot, so I plan to put a minimum of 30pts or so on Flight. However, since it's my game and I'm writing up the racial packeges, I'll be perfectly happy to give Gargolyes or some other kind of Winged Folk Flight at below minimum cost because it's part of an overall package.

[Starwolf]

I have been playing with the idea of reduced NCM and also higher/lowered Base stats based on race, like the race stats from 4E racial packages. I wonder what everyone else thinks of this?

[keithcurtis]

My opinion has always been that a 25 STR (say) is just as useful no matter what your race is. Pay the 20 points and call yourself a half-giant. Artificially tweaking the NCMs is a pointless endeavor. If you have a DEX of 23, pay the points. That you are an elf is immaterial.

 

Keith "All my opinion*" Curtis

 

 

*Well, FREd's, too.

[Rob_Knotts]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

Artificially tweaking the NCMs is a pointless endeavor.

Only if the NCM is pointless to begin with - if you're using NCM in the first place you're accepting the fact that Charateristic Maxima are important. As as far as "tweaking" them goes, there's nothing artificial about it, in that NCM is artificial (subjective, arbitrary) in the first place. The only thing establishing the published NCM as the one and only set of maxima is tradition.

 

I also suspect you're making the mistake a lot of people make in discounting the of lowered maxima accompanying raised maxima. Sure, a 25 STR is useful for everybody, but a maximum of 12 in EGO or PRE is likely to affect a lot of characters as well. And you an bank on the idea that when I increase a maximum I'm going to be lowering a maximum right along with it.

 

Besides, all of this only matters if the players try and buy up beyond the maxima, and I plan to make taking NCM optional in the first place. They can deal with it or not, it's up to them.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Rob_Knotts

Only if the NCM is pointless to begin with - if you're using NCM in the first place you're accepting the fact that Charateristic Maxima are important. As as far as "tweaking" them goes, there's nothing artificial about it, in that NCM is artificial (subjective, arbitrary) in the first place. The only thing establishing the published NCM as the one and only set of maxima is tradition.

I was referring to having different NCM (or none at all) for different characters based on the SFX of race.

I also suspect you're making the mistake a lot of people make in discounting the of lowered maxima accompanying raised maxima. Sure, a 25 STR is useful for everybody, but a maximum of 12 in EGO or PRE is likely to affect a lot of characters as well. And you an bank on the idea that when I increase a maximum I'm going to be lowering a maximum right along with it.

No mistake made. If a person doesn't intend to buy above the NCM, they suffer no penalty. Why should you have to pay more for a 16 INT half orc? If a half orc is supposed to be stupid, buy him stupid. Guidelines are fine. In my campaign I have an acceptable range that defines the species and only allow people to buy one stat above it. But I don't tweak the points, and I am open-minded to concepts that require more than one characteristic bought outside the norm. You just have to have a darn good rationale.

Besides, all of this only matters if the players try and buy up beyond the maxima, and I plan to make taking NCM optional in the first place. They can deal with it or not, it's up to them.

Exactly so. If I were a point-conscious player in your world, I would total him up both ways and buy the cheaper. What's the disad in having NCM, other than the point cost?

At least with the age-delineated NCM, you are supposed to have the defects of age. Bad back, or poor stamina, or always feeling cold, or having a spare tire or arthritis or whatever. At least there is a disad for being old. I'm actually against differed NCM for age, too, but too a lesser degree.

But again, these are all my opinions.

 

Keith "Hey, I turn forty this year! Where are my 5 points?" Curtis

[Rob_Knotts]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

Guidelines are fine.

Guidelines are garbage, especially in an archetype-heavy genre like fantasy. I've come across too many GURPS and HERO players who will take a great interest in the guidelines set out for a game, carefully discuss them with the GM, and then completely ignore them so that they can min/max thier character at the expense of any sort of roleplaying concept.

 

And please spare me the "any GOOD GM" rebuttle, players will go min/maxing over roleplaying concept under whatever GM they have, the only difference for them is how far they can get away with it.

 

And as for NCM being some sort of freebie disad, allow me to reiterate that normal humans use the regular NCM as published, whereas the "tweaked" NCM will all be part of racial packages. And once again, no guidelines here, all the packages will be offered on an all-or-nothing basis, and for just about every racial package I can think of NCM will only be one of several disads. So it's not just a matter of the player picking whatever NCM he's most comfortable with, it'll be a choice of no NCM, NCM as published, or a "tweaked" NCM as one of several disads attached to a package.

 

In GURPS, having an INT of 13 actually means something!

 

-One of my players on switching back from D&D 3e to GURPS.

[keithcurtis]

We obviously disagree on this issue. I'm not sure where your attitude is coming from. If you don't like what I'm saying, I'll stop saying it.

 

Keith "Not sure why you posted" Curtis

[Markdoc]

FWIW, I agree with your points (though I think you were a bit sharp with Keith :-) ) I can see his point with the "pay for what you get" argument, even I don't feel it is the best approach for many fantasy games.

 

So I have been using "tweaked NCM" for years, and it works fine for what I want. It encourages but does not force stereotypes. I am careful to balance off tweaked NCM so that the points come to 0 overall, which may be one reason that I have never had a problem with it. The other reason that I have perhaps never had a reason is that I prefer to run long term games that can run for years: limiting your options in such a game really IS a limitation, as I have seen.

 

So I have to admit to having no patience at all to the "it's not really limiting" argument, since it is just as true of Age, the bonus you get from EC and many other aspects of Hero system. Limiting your options seems to be a valid form of limitation.

 

cheers, Mark