Multipower and No Concious Controll

[Fireleaper]

Hello everyone,

I'm new to these forums so if i posted this in the wrong place let me know.

 

I am currently designing a character with a "mystic" sword which has a multipower tied into it. The problem the character has is that after 1 turn the multipower will automactically change slots, and the character will be unable to change the slot back until he has gone through all of the slots in the mutipower. I was wondering if this would allow the No Concious Controll limitation on the Multipower reserve or the individual slots or I should use some other method to represent this?

 

I would appreciate any helpful comments.

[zornwil]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

This forum is fine, although you could also consider posting the same into a genre forum if it's rather particular to that.

 

I think the primary question is whether he will be able to select the initial power and/or if that initial power is very useful always in a first Turn of combat. An important consideration, too, is how long your combats run (many don't run more than 2-3 Turns, for example, depending a lot).

 

If it's generally pretty useful up front and then wanes in usefulness, I'd probably reduce the NCC limitation by 1/4 to 1/2, depending, but if he's always stuck with a power that sometimes won't be applicable at all and is slave to the order from the get-go, NCC seems just dandy to me.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

It'd probably be best to post either a plain english description of what you want the sword to do, and/or a tentative write up. This'd give fok a better chance to evaluate and give feedback. Right off the top of my head I'd be inclined to say I'd allow NCC at the -1 level (can activate the power, but after that lacks control), but like Zorn, I might tweak the value depending on how the power plays out.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

You have to be a bit careful using limitations that affect how you can change slots, even though it is perfectly book legal to do so.

 

Example:

 

20 MP pool 30 point pool RANDOM SLOT EACH TIME IT ACTIVATES (-1/2)

3u SLOT 1: 6d6 EB

3u SLOT 2: 2d6 RKA

 

Total cost - 26 points

 

The cost for any one power is 30 points, and both are useful in a combat situation, even if you don't get just the one you wanted, so you are getting a cheaper power without much, if any, loss of utility (and I only used -1/2, not -1 or -2 you would get from NCC).

 

Now if the slots were:

 

SLOT 1: 6d6 EB

SLOT 2: 10/10 force field at 0 END

 

....then I can see the limitation, although it is still useful stuff and not worth an awful lot.

 

You need to have a weather eye to the overall effect not just the minutiae when looking at limitation values: how much of a limit IS it in practice?

 

Oh and welcome to the boards

[CraterMaker]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

What they said...

 

No, I mean, what powers are you going to give it?

 

Welcome to the Boards, FireLeaper! Hey, if it's a Fantasy Hero magic sword, theres a thread there for magic items (so other people can swipe yer ideas) - if it's a SuperHeroic game, I know I would like to peek at the hero in question - It's allways informative to see how someone else builds things, IMHO..

 

-CraterMaker

[Fireleaper]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

I tend to work my characters into 350 point supers, even my spellcasters because the superhero setting can accomodate the majority of my concepts. But the special effects of this sword is that it is magical. As to how i have it so far:

 

Greatsword: 2d6HKA(+2d6from STR), 0END (+½); 45 active; OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-¼), 2 Handed (-½), STR Min. 17 (-¾). plus +1 OCV; 5 active; OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-¼), 2 Handed (-½). Total Real 15

 

Sword Spirits: 100pt Multipower; 100 active; Must Change Slot on first action in turn (-½), All Slots: OAF (-1), Linked to Greatsword (-¼), Lockout (Must cycle through all slots before prior slots can be used again -½). 31 Real

(all mutipower slots work out to 3 real using ultra slots)

 

1) Serpent: 5d6 Drain Any One Physical characteristic one at a time (+¼), Reduced Return (1 Minute, +¼), 0END (+½); 100 active; Gradual Effect (Post Segment 12, -¼), Multipower Limitations (-1¾),

 

2) Dragon: 8d6 EB, 0END (+½), AOE (6" Cone, +1); 100 active; Multipower Limitations (-1¾), No Range (-½).

 

3) Basilisk: 4d6 Transform (Anything into Stone), Recovers Normally, 0END (+½); 90 Active; Multipower Limitations (-1¾), No Range (-½)

 

5) Phoenix: 8d6 Sight Group Flash, Explosion (+½), Personal Immunity (+¼), 0END (+½); 90 Active; Multipower Limitations (-1¾), No Range (-½)

 

6) Wraith: 8d6 EB, Explosion (+½), Affects Desolid (+½), 0END (+½); 100 active; Multipower Limitations (-1¾), Desolid Only (-½), No Range (-½)

 

Hope this should clarify things.

[CraterMaker]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

Yeah, that looks good - Are you going to roll a d6 for a random start on the MP list, or do you start from the beginning and go down it every time? Just curious..

 

The only minor problem I see is that you added the limitation Str Minimum to it, which is rarely seen in a SuperHeroic game - But if your GM is cool with it, looks like you got a winner..

 

-CraterMaker

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

I tend to work my characters into 350 point supers, even my spellcasters because the superhero setting can accomodate the majority of my concepts. But the special effects of this sword is that it is magical. As to how i have it so far:

 

Greatsword: 2d6HKA(+2d6from STR), 0END (+½); 45 active; OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-¼), 2 Handed (-½), STR Min. 17 (-¾). plus +1 OCV; 5 active; OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-¼), 2 Handed (-½). Total Real 15

 

Sword Spirits: 100pt Multipower; 100 active; Must Change Slot on first action in turn (-½), All Slots: OAF (-1), Linked to Greatsword (-¼), Lockout (Must cycle through all slots before prior slots can be used again -½). 31 Real

(all mutipower slots work out to 3 real using ultra slots)

 

1) Serpent: 5d6 Drain Any One Physical characteristic one at a time (+¼), Reduced Return (1 Minute, +¼), 0END (+½); 100 active; Gradual Effect (Post Segment 12, -¼), Multipower Limitations (-1¾),

 

2) Dragon: 8d6 EB, 0END (+½), AOE (6" Cone, +1); 100 active; Multipower Limitations (-1¾), No Range (-½).

 

3) Basilisk: 4d6 Transform (Anything into Stone), Recovers Normally, 0END (+½); 90 Active; Multipower Limitations (-1¾), No Range (-½)

 

5) Phoenix: 8d6 Sight Group Flash, Explosion (+½), Personal Immunity (+¼), 0END (+½); 90 Active; Multipower Limitations (-1¾), No Range (-½)

 

6) Wraith: 8d6 EB, Explosion (+½), Affects Desolid (+½), 0END (+½); 100 active; Multipower Limitations (-1¾), Desolid Only (-½), No Range (-½)

 

Hope this should clarify things.

 

The -1/2 you put on there looks about right in this case.

Good job & welcome to the boards

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

Sword Spirits: 100pt Multipower; 100 active; Must Change Slot on first action in turn (-½), All Slots: OAF (-1), Linked to Greatsword (-¼), Lockout (Must cycle through all slots before prior slots can be used again -½). 31 Real

(all mutipower slots work out to 3 real using ultra slots)

 

1) Serpent: 5d6 Drain Any One Physical characteristic one at a time (+¼), Reduced Return (1 Minute, +¼), 0END (+½); 100 active; Gradual Effect (Post Segment 12, -¼), Multipower Limitations (-1¾),

 

2) Dragon: 8d6 EB, 0END (+½), AOE (6" Cone, +1); 100 active; Multipower Limitations (-1¾), No Range (-½).

 

3) Basilisk: 4d6 Transform (Anything into Stone), Recovers Normally, 0END (+½); 90 Active; Multipower Limitations (-1¾), No Range (-½)

 

5) Phoenix: 8d6 Sight Group Flash, Explosion (+½), Personal Immunity (+¼), 0END (+½); 90 Active; Multipower Limitations (-1¾), No Range (-½)

 

6) Wraith: 8d6 EB, Explosion (+½), Affects Desolid (+½), 0END (+½); 100 active; Multipower Limitations (-1¾), Desolid Only (-½), No Range (-½)

I don't mean to throw a monkey wrench into the works, but it looks to me like you're getting 100 Active Points for only about 45 Real Points. The only limitations that really limit you are the OAF and the Linked. It's an odd coincidence, I was about to start a thread similar to this in which I was going to argue that a Multipower with no control over which slot activates is equivalent to a Single power, and therefore should cost the same. After all, if all you had was one slot, you wouldn't have any choice either, right? It turns out in this particular case that your final cost comes out about right, but I wouldn't build it this way.

 

Check out Sean's example - 30 Active points of power with no effective limitation for 26 points. Even if the book says you can do this, common sense says it's wrong.

 

A long time ago we had a discussion (more than one actually) about Multipower Slot-Switching Limitations - slots switch randomly, extra time to switch slots, costs END to switch slots, focus required to switch slots, limited number of times slots can be switched, etc. The example Sean gave shows quite clearly why such limitations should never be placed on the Reserve Cost. They are limitations on the accessibility of the Slots themselves and should be placed only on the slot costs, and at a reduced value (I suggest half the normal value that the Lim would have it it were on the power itself). If you do a search on "Multipower Slot-Switching Limitations" you can see my step-by-step demonstration of why this is so. I realize that I haven't convinced everybody, but it's the fairness or unfairness of the results that matter. The classic example was something like this:

 

Single Power

60 12d6 EB - cost: 60 points

 

Multipower

60 Reserve

6u 12d6 EB

6u 4d6 RKA

- cost: 72 points

 

Proposed Restricted Multipower

60 Reserve

6u 12d6 EB

6u 4d6 RKA

with a limitation applied somewhere that it takes one hour to switch slots

- what should this cost? Clearly it should cost less than 72 points, but more than 60 points. Right? If you never switch the slots, you're no worse off than if you just had the single power, so it's worth at least 60. And if you really need to switch slots, at least you have the option, even though it's inconvenient, so it's worth more then 60.

[Fireleaper]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

Well thank you all for your help. Now for my next character concept a genesplicing symbiote.

[zornwil]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

I don't mean to throw a monkey wrench into the works, but it looks to me like you're getting 100 Active Points for only about 45 Real Points. The only limitations that really limit you are the OAF and the Linked. It's an odd coincidence, I was about to start a thread similar to this in which I was going to argue that a Multipower with no control over which slot activates is equivalent to a Single power, and therefore should cost the same. After all, if all you had was one slot, you wouldn't have any choice either, right? It turns out in this particular case that your final cost comes out about right, but I wouldn't build it this way.

 

Check out Sean's example - 30 Active points of power with no effective limitation for 26 points. Even if the book says you can do this, common sense says it's wrong.

 

A long time ago we had a discussion (more than one actually) about Multipower Slot-Switching Limitations - slots switch randomly, extra time to switch slots, costs END to switch slots, focus required to switch slots, limited number of times slots can be switched, etc. The example Sean gave shows quite clearly why such limitations should never be placed on the Reserve Cost. They are limitations on the accessibility of the Slots themselves and should be placed only on the slot costs, and at a reduced value (I suggest half the normal value that the Lim would have it it were on the power itself). If you do a search on "Multipower Slot-Switching Limitations" you can see my step-by-step demonstration of why this is so. I realize that I haven't convinced everybody, but it's the fairness or unfairness of the results that matter. The classic example was something like this:

 

Single Power

60 12d6 EB - cost: 60 points

 

Multipower

60 Reserve

6u 12d6 EB

6u 4d6 RKA

- cost: 72 points

 

Proposed Restricted Multipower

60 Reserve

6u 12d6 EB

6u 4d6 RKA

with a limitation applied somewhere that it takes one hour to switch slots

- what should this cost? Clearly it should cost less than 72 points, but more than 60 points. Right? If you never switch the slots, you're no worse off than if you just had the single power, so it's worth at least 60. And if you really need to switch slots, at least you have the option, even though it's inconvenient, so it's worth more then 60.

As I understand it, you might be completely wasted in the choice of power - you might be forced to have a power for which there's no practical use. In that case, it's worth less as an entire power, even the reserve. Just my 2 cents.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

In this build all the powers are pretty useful, all are combat effective and all are subject to the quite relevant point that, even if you didn't get one that wsa too useful at any one time then you still have a 4d6 HKA GreatSword to fall back on (not literally, I hope).

 

Now arguably the transform is of limited use as it is 4d6 effect, or 7 BODY on average, so you would need 3 hits in 1 turn to change a normal starting character to stone....by which time they would be dead anyway from the HKA.

 

The cone EB is OK against multiple opponents, or single ones so long as the battle is nt too chaotic, the explosion EB only effects desolid characters so wil rarely be useful (depending on campaign). The flash is always going to be useful, as is the drain.

 

The only one you'd really WANT to be able to control is probably the desolid explosion, but the rest are always useful and never wasted. Arguably the flash will upset your teammates but they probably know when to blink

 

Is having the WHOLE THING less useful than having any one slot? Judgement call, but, certainly bearing in mind the availablity of other offensive options, I'd have to say 'no', certainly when balanced against the utility of the overall build.

 

I mean if the rest of the team were constantly being blinded by the flash I'd feel differently: that would make the power useless in a team one turn in 6. That would be worth a limtiation. Mind you would it be worth that much? I mean if you just bought it as a straight power, without the multipower, it would cost full: why should it cost less when in a multipower?

 

I certainly do not feel that the whole think is worth -1 (-1/2 for 'only change each turn' and -1/2 for lockout - arguably they do the same thing anyway).

[zornwil]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

I must have missed the actual power set. I was under the impression the character would on regular occassion have completely useless powers. If not, then of course it should be treated as always having that MP value.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

As I understand it' date=' you might be completely wasted in the choice of power - you might be forced to have a power for which there's no practical use. In that case, it's worth less as an entire power, even the reserve. Just my 2 cents.[/quote']

But if you only had that one power to begin with, it would still be useless some of the time. Assuming the general case:

 

Single power - useless in situation A

 

Multipower with randomly chosen slots

Slot 1 - useless in situation A

Slot 2 - useless in situation B

Slot 3 - useless in situation C

 

Assuming Situations A, B, and C are all equally likely, both the single power and the no-choice Multipower will be useless the same amount of time. Yes, if situations A and B happen only 10% of the time, each, but situation C happens 50% of the time, then obviously the Multipower becomes less useful, but there would probably be a Limitation to reflect that.

 

In the particular example given, it's probably a little more useful than that, since (a) each slot lasts for a full turn and ( have to cycle through before repeating. (a) means that you can take some (temporary) tactical advantage of the slot - "Ah! It's on the Wraith setting. I'll go after the ghost, while my teammates handle the other opponents." ... "Now it's on the Dragon setting. I'll go after the hoard of mooks, now." And ( means that if there's a particular setting that you must have, you might be able to draw out the combat long enough to wait for it to come up. With a lot of Blocking and Dodging, etc., you'll only need to wait one minute, in this case.

[zornwil]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

But if you only had that one power to begin with, it would still be useless some of the time. Assuming the general case:

 

Single power - useless in situation A

 

Multipower with randomly chosen slots

Slot 1 - useless in situation A

Slot 2 - useless in situation B

Slot 3 - useless in situation C

 

Assuming Situations A, B, and C are all equally likely, both the single power and the no-choice Multipower will be useless the same amount of time. Yes, if situations A and B happen only 10% of the time, each, but situation C happens 50% of the time, then obviously the Multipower becomes less useful, but there would probably be a Limitation to reflect that.

 

In the particular example given, it's probably a little more useful than that, since (a) each slot lasts for a full turn and ( have to cycle through before repeating. (a) means that you can take some (temporary) tactical advantage of the slot - "Ah! It's on the Wraith setting. I'll go after the ghost, while my teammates handle the other opponents." ... "Now it's on the Dragon setting. I'll go after the hoard of mooks, now." And ( means that if there's a particular setting that you must have, you might be able to draw out the combat long enough to wait for it to come up. With a lot of Blocking and Dodging, etc., you'll only need to wait one minute, in this case.

And as you say, if single power is useless in Situation A and IF the MP is entirely useless in Situation A AND if the character has no ability to control the MP, then like the single power, the MP should be worth less than full value, I would say.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

And as you say' date=' if single power is useless in Situation A and IF the MP is entirely useless in Situation A AND if the character has no ability to control the MP, then like the single power, the MP should be worth less than full value, I would say.[/quote']

I'm not sure how that follows. (And it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the example provided.) If both the single power and the multipower are useless in the same situations, then that uselessness evens out, doesn't it? Remember, we're not talking about the character not being able to control the MP *at all,* just that he can't control which slot is available. Let me try to illustrate:

 

Single power:

12d6 EB

60 points

- Useless vs Desolid targets

 

Multipower:

60 reserve

u 12d6 EB

u 4d6 RKA

u 6d6 Entangle

No choice of which slot is available

- Also useless vs Desolid targets

 

I don't see why the second should cost less than the first. I say they are equal. (Though there may be a slight difference depending on how the slots are chosen and how long they last, as I mentioned in my last post.)

[zornwil]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

I'm not sure how that follows. (And it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the example provided.) If both the single power and the multipower are useless in the same situations, then that uselessness evens out, doesn't it? Remember, we're not talking about the character not being able to control the MP *at all,* just that he can't control which slot is available. Let me try to illustrate:

 

Single power:

12d6 EB

60 points

- Useless vs Desolid targets

 

Multipower:

60 reserve

u 12d6 EB

u 4d6 RKA

u 6d6 Entangle

No choice of which slot is available

- Also useless vs Desolid targets

 

I don't see why the second should cost less than the first. I say they are equal. (Though there may be a slight difference depending on how the slots are chosen and how long they last, as I mentioned in my last post.)

When I pay for an MP reserve, I pay for the ability to switch powers within it for enhanced utility. When I take that away AND I force the power to be non-useful with no player recourse, I would simply argue the MP reserve cost is certainly not worth the cost and is affected by a Limitation that applies to it. However, the Limitation does not apply to the slots - they all function, individually, just fine.

 

PS - similarly, taking the example:

 

Single power:

12d6 EB

60 points

- Useless vs Desolid targets

 

So let's say Useless vs. Desolid is -1/4. That's 48 points.

 

 

 

Multipower:

60 reserve

u 12d6 EB

u 4d6 RKA

u 6d6 Entangle

No choice of which slot is available

- Also useless vs Desolid targets

 

So if I get the -1/4 on each slot, that's:

 

60 for the MP

5 for the EB (would have been 6 w/o the Lim)

5 for the RKA (would have been 6 w/o the Lim)

5 for the Entangle (would have been 6 w/o the Lim)

 

That's 75.

 

Why am I paying so much more when all attacks are inheriting the problem?

 

Why shouldn't I pay:

 

48 for the MP

5 for the EB

5 for the RKA

5 for the Entangle

 

That's 63 points, I'm still paying 15 more than for a single power and still 3 points more than a full-fledged non-disadvantaged 60 point power. Further, I can't put in a power that Affects Desol until I pay off the 12 points on the reserve.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

When I pay for an MP reserve' date=' I pay for the ability to switch powers within it for enhanced utility.[/quote']

This is a conceptual point where it seems we disagree. IMO, when you pay for the MP reserve, you are paying for the raw amount of power that the MP will have. When you pay for the slots, that's where you get the ability to switch powers.

 

PS - similarly, taking the example:

 

Single power:

12d6 EB

60 points

- Useless vs Desolid targets

 

So let's say Useless vs. Desolid is -1/4. That's 48 points.

But you don't get a limitation for that. It's already useless vs Desolid targets! Because it doesn't have Affects Desolid on it. So it's still 60 points.

 

Of course you'd get a lim on the reserve which limits the use of all the powers. I would never argue otherwise. I (and the original poster, and AFAICT all the other posters here) am talking about limitations which affect how the slots can be switched to/between. I refer you to that other thread from a long time ago (I'll post the link if and when I find it).

 

EDIT: Here is the link http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=191113&postcount=21

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10975 post 21

[zornwil]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

This is a conceptual point where it seems we disagree. IMO, when you pay for the MP reserve, you are paying for the raw amount of power that the MP will have. When you pay for the slots, that's where you get the ability to switch powers.

 

 

But you don't get a limitation for that. It's already useless vs Desolid targets! Because it doesn't have Affects Desolid on it. So it's still 60 points.

 

Of course you'd get a lim on the reserve which limits the use of all the powers. I would never argue otherwise. I (and the original poster, and AFAICT all the other posters here) am talking about limitations which affect how the slots can be switched to/between. I refer you to that other thread from a long time ago (I'll post the link if and when I find it).

 

EDIT: Here is the link http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=191113&postcount=21

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10975 post 21

It was just an example.

 

I wouldn't put a Lim on the slots themselves unless the Lim applied to all slots as in the example, meaning each power is equally affected.

 

I would still consider limiting the slots if a person couldn't control them, depending a lot on the specifics of the character. If the net affect was an entirely uncontrolled power, on the whole, I'd say it might likely be worth the additional break regardless of mechanics, though granted if each slot is under control then more likely I'd only have the lim on the reserve and not the slots. So we'd probably agree in this case if it's just about putting the lim on the slots. To me the phrase "the whole multipower" tends to mean the multipower itself, which I see as the reserve, which is my own nomenclature oddity.

[tesuji]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

this one has been round the bend before, most often with a "slow change multipower" where it takes extra time to change slots.

 

Example: My Andriod war machine has meson eye beams that can do a variety of attacks but it takes him several minutes outof combat to reconfigure his systems to change them between those three. (Equivalent to the -1/2 from VPPs)

 

The "must change after X time" and "must cycle thru" are simply different variations on the theme of the "hard to change" multipower.

 

Going against the grain, as I usually do, I find i get the best math results (cost vs effectiveness makes sense) when i leave the reserve as is and apply those "hard to change slots" style lims on the SLOTS.

 

Note: here I am talking about "hard to change" lims not "hard to use" lims. A "hard to change" lim lets you start with a useful power but not insta-tune to a better one. A "hard to use" lim gets in the way of actually using the multipower at all.

 

Take my meson eye beams Assume the following

60 AP Pool (3 ultra slots) (instant change eye beams)

6 12d6 Eb

6 6d6 Eb NND

6 4d6 NND cone

 

Insta-blaster costs 78 cp

thats the normal "easy to change" multipower.

 

Now also consider Mono-eye beams. Only one eye beam. No switching at all

12d6 EB OIF 60 cp

 

Logic tells me that the following version should fall price-wise between the values of 60 cp and 78 cp since it is obviously better than the mono-eye-beam and equally obviously worse than the insta-change-eye-beams

 

60 AP Pool (3 ultra slots) meson eye beams

6 12d6 Eb

6 6d6 Eb NND

6 4d6 NND cone

-1/2 (change configuration out of combat taking a couple minutes)

 

Now, if i apply the -1/2 to:

---Reserve and slots: final cost is 52 which is not between 60-78 so... not the one.

---Reserve but not the slots: final cost is 58 cp which is not between 60-78 so... not the one.

---Slots but not reserve: final cost is 72 which is right smack dab between 60-78 so BINGO... this is the one.

 

its counter-intuitive.. not limiting the reserve when it seems like you are limiting the reserve but in fact the "hard to change" is limiting how you can get to the slots and leaving "how do i get the reserve in play" just fine.

 

Its also, the notion of limiting the reserve for changing the slots, an example of another kind of HERO math fallacy I call "buy little to save big". BLTSB exists in several places and is sanctioned even tho it produced bad math results.

 

Consider the following...

 

I buy 12d6 Eb for 60 Cp (the BIG)

I buy +10 mental defense costs end for 7 cp (the LITTLE)

I put a -1/4 lim on the Eb (not if mental defense shield is up.)

 

I save 12 cp on the Eb because I added the option of having the mental shield up. What if i never use the mental shield? I just got 5 cp bonus for being a sneaky little twit?

 

Thats buying a LITTLE item cuz it will enable you to limit a much more expensive BIG power and the saving is worth more than the little cost. More (or same) options for less points.

 

The two most obvious officially sanctioned and confirmed and absolutely defended examples in the core rules is the partial coverage rules for bases (a tale of two bases) and the weak/clumsy extra limbs rule (A tale of two tails.) maybe they will be fixed in 6th.

 

Back to the subject at hand... look at mono--eye-beam guy and "slow-change-eye-beam-guy and you see the same example at work.

 

The BIG is the first atack.. the 12d6 Eb. The LITTLE are the extra options, the cheapo-slots from the multipower. By buying the LITTLES, adding more options, I then CON-vince my Gm to let me limit the BIG (slow to change on the reserve) and i save more than I spent to get the extra options. net result is a win-win... more options for less cost.

 

Now again, "hard to use" limits which prevent the use of the multipower reserve in the first place, these are a different matter. Its reasonable to me for those to, when appropriate,, limit the reserve as the rules allow.

 

But for my math and logic sections of the brain to work this out... the proper way to model "hard-to-change" multipowers is to apply the limitations to the slots only, ad then you get costs between "one power" and "instant-change multipower" consistently.

 

So, regardless of what values i would assign to "must cycle thru all" and "must change after one turn" (which would vary greatly on how many powers and their effectiveness and typical combat length) in all likelihood i would apply those values to the slots, not the reserve.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

Excellent post and examples from tesuji. Wholeheartedly endorsed.

 

I think looking at whether a particular limitation would limit a single power must be the way to decide if it is a limit that can apply to the reserve, even though the book seems to say otherwise, I think that is a good candidate for the correcting fluid.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

I think looking at whether a particular limitation would limit a single power must be the way to decide if it is a limit that can apply to the reserve' date=' even though the book seems to say otherwise, I think that is a good candidate for the correcting fluid.[/quote']

 

I think one has to look at how the limitation applies. tesuji alludes to the MP that takes time to change slots. Assume it takes a turn to change slots - extra time, only to activate.

 

If the MP requires a full turn to activate any slot, I would say the limitation can properly be placed on the pool and the slots. However, if the player wants "this slot's the default, so it's already active" such that the MP can be used from the outset, with no time delay, for a single slot, then the limitation is no longer affecting the pool, and should be available only on the slots themselves.

 

If I can get away with "all slots take 1 turn to activate, but the pool defaults to Slot 1", why buy a 12d6 Energy Blast? buy a 60 point MP, take a 12d6 EB as the default and a 1d6 Dispel Life support as a second slot, and limit both with Requires 1 century to activate.

 

"The EB's already active, and can be used as normal, so I'll never switch slots. But if I did it would take 100 years, so I get a limitation." NO buy the EB normally, or buy the MP and pay 2 extra points, one for each slot. No limitation on the reserve.

[tesuji]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

If the MP requires a full turn to activate any slot, I would say the limitation can properly be placed on the pool and the slots. However, if the player wants "this slot's the default, so it's already active" such that the MP can be used from the outset, with no time delay, for a single slot, then the limitation is no longer affecting the pool, and should be available only on the slots themselves.

exactly... the "1 turn to activate" is a USE restriction, which will impact the ability to access the reserve, just as could focus or activation roll. (Mag glass for powers which can easily be "left on")

the "1 turn to change slots" or the "has a defaut setting" is simply a "change" limit and would not,, under "tesuji is my GM" conditions, be allowed on the pool.

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

Ok By the system NCC -1 can represent Mental Illusion produce greatest fears only that's useful even though the attacker does not know what the victim is experiencing thus at the -1 its not based on the relative effectiveness but strictly on the control by the true form of the rule as it states.Now again GM's have the last say how they want to modify it but by the rules it's legal and not debatible as right or wrong just suitable or not for their campaign.

[DavidToomey]

Re: Multipower and No Concious Controll

 

If I can get away with "all slots take 1 turn to activate, but the pool defaults to Slot 1", why buy a 12d6 Energy Blast? buy a 60 point MP, take a 12d6 EB as the default and a 1d6 Dispel Life support as a second slot, and limit both with Requires 1 century to activate.

 

"The EB's already active, and can be used as normal, so I'll never switch slots. But if I did it would take 100 years, so I get a limitation." NO buy the EB normally, or buy the MP and pay 2 extra points, one for each slot. No limitation on the reserve.

 

Dispel Energy Blast...see you next Century!

 

Alternatively,

 

OK, so your character is...28? 72 more years to go before activating...

 

Of course, I'd always talk with the player before slamming him like this, and try to talk him out of the build, but if he stayed munchkiny, I'll have the whole group captured at some point, put in power neutralizing collars, and when they get loose, he's minus one MP...