Mental Illusions and Memory

[bcaplan]

I've now got a PC in my game with Mental Illusions. It didn't take long before the following issue came up: The PC wanted to transmit illusions that would be obviously recognized as such if the victim kept his memory intact.

 

For example, the illusionist wanted to make another character think he was suddenly back in prison, so he would re-enact the scene of his escape. The problem, as I saw it, was that if you suddenly found yourself re-living events from six months ago, you would have good reason to think that you were experiencing an illusion. And if you had a good reason to think you were experiencing an illusion, your behavior would probably be very different than if you thought the events were real.

 

In the end, I decided that by adding 10 to the difficulty roll, illusionists could make victims would ignore memory inconsistencies/discontinuities generated by Mental Illusions. In effect, an illusionist could mimic the experience we've often had while dreaming - make the victim buy the current situation as real, even though it doesn't fit with his preceding experiences.

 

Has this issue come up in other games? What do you think of my solution?

[Psylint]

Re: Mental Illusions and Memory

 

Honestly it seems like a stretch to make Mental Illusions do Telepathy. It seems that the illusionist wants to create the illusion to learn how the target managed the escape, and yet if the illusionist did not already know how the target managed the escape how could he or she construct the illusion?

 

The +10 to difficulty might be okay, but you'd need some rationale for moving back in time. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking a ghost of Christmas Past kind of effect, so you'd need a Ego +20 (complete alteration of the environment, but the target still operates in it) with a penalty of +10 for invoking the Ghost of Christmas Past.

 

It'd be awfully tough to keep that illusion up and operating, even if you could slip it past the GM that the illusionist knew how to set up the illusion in the first place. Additionally, the information may not be so great, as there would be some question whether the illusionist would be able to percieve the illusion itself. If not, the illusionist could only see the target's interactions and wouldn't necessarily know with what or whom the target was interacting. Finally, it would take several turns (as each is only 12 seconds real time) to re-act a prison escape, which means that the target would almost certainly make a breakthrough roll prior to fully acting it out.

 

A better way might be, simple Mind Control "Re-enact the prison escape"

 

Just my 2 pts.

[Robyn]

Re: Mental Illusions and Memory

 

problem' date=' as I saw it, was that if you suddenly found yourself re-living events from six months ago, you would have good reason to think that you were experiencing an illusion.[/quote']

 

Block the long-term memory? Penalty to INT rolls for purposes of accessing memories within the last 6 months? There's a lack of guidelines for how badly you need to fail your INT roll to not even realize that there's relevant information which you could (try to) remember. If the effect is going to be built with Mind Control, some sort of precedent (for similar effects) would be preferable.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Mental Illusions and Memory

 

Also, the illusionist does not need to convince the former prisoner that they are back in prison for some reason. It is much simpler to convince the person that all of their memories after prison were just a dream. Prisoner wakes up in his cell, just like he "knew" he would, because he went to bed there last night. He had a nice dream at least...

[bcaplan]

Re: Mental Illusions and Memory

 

Psylint wrote:

 

Honestly it seems like a stretch to make Mental Illusions do Telepathy.

 

I disagree, it seems like a clever but natural use of illusion. If you want to find out a villain's plan, for example, you create the illusion that his henchman has returned for instructions, and eavesdrop. Seems fair to me.

 

It seems that the illusionist wants to create the illusion to learn how the target managed the escape, and yet if the illusionist did not already know how the target managed the escape how could he or she construct the illusion?

 

Why can't you start with the illusion of being in prison, and observe how the target responds to the situation? It's basically a super-powered version of the trick the IM team pulled over and over again on the Mission Impossible t.v. series...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental Illusions and Memory

 

I'd just set it at Ego+20 (completely alters setting), but it depends a bit on how you see MI working: is the illusion actually created by the attacker, in which case they would have to get it right, down to details, and without proper research I'd give a bonus to breakout rolls.

 

Mind you even if the target believes they are back in prison, it does not mean they can use their old escape plan (it may have relied on an interesting conjunction of circumstances) or that it would be obvious how they escaped: the attacker does not see what the target sees, just what they do: if he was let out by an accomplice then it would not be obvious at all AND you might have to keep the target under the illusion for quite some time to make it effective.

 

Still interesting uses of powers should be rewarded - just don't make it too easy or they will do it all the time.

[Psylint]

Re: Mental Illusions and Memory

 

Psylint wrote:

 

 

 

I disagree, it seems like a clever but natural use of illusion. If you want to find out a villain's plan, for example, you create the illusion that his henchman has returned for instructions, and eavesdrop. Seems fair to me.

 

 

 

Why can't you start with the illusion of being in prison, and observe how the target responds to the situation? It's basically a super-powered version of the trick the IM team pulled over and over again on the Mission Impossible t.v. series...

 

1. I agree that using Illusions to have the henchmen show up and say, "Hey Boss, tell us the story about how you escaped from the Strong Box." is a fine use of mental illusions, it was the re-enactment that was the difficulty. Additionally the re-enactment scenario has problems with staging, for example if the escape involved free climbing a high wall and leaping into the ocean surf followed by a 3 mile swim from Alcatraz and you're currently in a flat field in Nebraska, how is the target going to re-enact the climb, jump and swim?

 

2. What happens when the reenactment requires an illusion of something the illusionist doesn't know about? In my campaigns the illusionist always has to describe what the illusion is, if the illusion doesn't know what to make how can it be made? So an illusion of having a trusted associate ask for a recitation would be a fair and fine use of mental illusions (assuming the illusionist knew who such a person was and what they looked like), but the other I'm still dubious.

[bcaplan]

Re: Mental Illusions and Memory

 

1. I agree that using Illusions to have the henchmen show up and say' date=' "Hey Boss, tell us the story about how you escaped from the Strong Box." is a fine use of mental illusions, it was the re-enactment that was the difficulty. Additionally the re-enactment scenario has problems with staging, for example if the escape involved free climbing a high wall and leaping into the ocean surf followed by a 3 mile swim from Alcatraz and you're currently in a flat field in Nebraska, how is the target going to re-enact the climb, jump and swim?[/quote']

 

If your illusion reaches the level of a Major alternation, I don't see the problem. If a person can take Body from an illusion, why can't he "jump" into illusory water right in front of him?

 

2. What happens when the reenactment requires an illusion of something the illusionist doesn't know about? In my campaigns the illusionist always has to describe what the illusion is, if the illusion doesn't know what to make how can it be made? So an illusion of having a trusted associate ask for a recitation would be a fair and fine use of mental illusions (assuming the illusionist knew who such a person was and what they looked like), but the other I'm still dubious.

 

I'd agree if someone wanted to use Images to achieve this effect - these are externally visible rather than just in the head. But for Mental Illusions, this strikes me as too restrictive. For example, if an illusionist wants to create an illusion of a target's mother, why can't the imagination of the target fill in the gaps if the illusionist doesn't know what she looks like?

 

Needless to say, turnabout's fair play - villains might play similar tricks on the PCs.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Illusions and Memory

 

Psylint wrote:

 

 

 

I disagree, it seems like a clever but natural use of illusion. If you want to find out a villain's plan, for example, you create the illusion that his henchman has returned for instructions, and eavesdrop. Seems fair to me.

 

 

 

Why can't you start with the illusion of being in prison, and observe how the target responds to the situation? It's basically a super-powered version of the trick the IM team pulled over and over again on the Mission Impossible t.v. series...

 

In MI, the illusion wasn't in the target's mind. It was a real, physical, tangible thing everyone could observe. No so with Mental Illusions. If the Illusionist wants to watch, he needs Telepathy. And if he has Telepathy, he might as well just use that to find out what he needs to know. With Mental Illusions alone, even if you could convince the target he's doing the escape for the first time and have him forget everything since then, and if you could get him to pantomime the experience to onlookers and get an idea of what he's doing, and if the GM rules you just trigger the illusion and the target's mind takes over to fill in the blanks you are unaware of, you're still only getting part of the picture. How will you tell the difference between him talking to himself or to someone else, or if he'd delusional. Is he digging and removing dirt or gathering items together and moving them? Is he picking a lock, filing the bars, did he find a key or is he just scraping the wall?

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Mental Illusions and Memory

 

Also' date=' the illusionist does not need to convince the former prisoner that they are back in prison for some reason. It is much simpler to convince the person that all of their memories after prison were just a dream. Prisoner wakes up in his cell, just like he "knew" he would, because he went to bed there last night. He had a nice dream at least...[/quote']

 

Yes I agree I have use such effects before.

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Mental Illusions and Memory

 

Psylint wrote:

 

 

 

I disagree, it seems like a clever but natural use of illusion. If you want to find out a villain's plan, for example, you create the illusion that his henchman has returned for instructions, and eavesdrop. Seems fair to me.

 

 

 

Why can't you start with the illusion of being in prison, and observe how the target responds to the situation? It's basically a super-powered version of the trick the IM team pulled over and over again on the Mission Impossible t.v. series...

 

The most important thing to remember with mental illsion is the the creator of them are not automatically aware of the illusions unless they have Telepathy in the first place. There's a limitation on 1 of the published characters in hero on mental illusions target's worse fears which justifies my view because the targets mind produces the effects and then reacts to them appropiately this however does notmean the the person using Illusions is aware of that unless he has Telepathy or other powers to simulate knowing the thoughts of the target.

 

Now you can use illusions to manipulate situations and watch the outcome accordingly this is assuming you are not making the experience completely within the mind.

[Wanderer]

Re: Mental Illusions and Memory

 

The most important thing to remember with mental illsion is the the creator of them are not automatically aware of the illusions unless they have Telepathy in the first place. There's a limitation on 1 of the published characters in hero on mental illusions target's worse fears which justifies my view because the targets mind produces the effects and then reacts to them appropiately this however does notmean the the person using Illusions is aware of that unless he has Telepathy or other powers to simulate knowing the thoughts of the target.

 

Actually according to Ultimate Mentalist, p. 35, this is not true: typically a mentalist gets at least some idea of what the victim perceives, and if he keeps some kind of mental contact (such as feeding END to prevent deteriorating), the mentalist gets to perceive exactly what the victim perceives (much like a movie). Only if the illusion is pre-programmed, or the power is built with No Conscious Control (-1), he gets no clue (other than the victim's behavior).

[Manic Typist]

Re: Mental Illusions and Memory

 

Oh snap! Plot twist!

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Mental Illusions and Memory

 

Actually according to Ultimate Mentalist' date=' p. 35, this is not true: typically a mentalist gets at least some idea of what the victim perceives, and if he keeps some kind of mental contact (such as feeding END to prevent deteriorating), the mentalist gets to perceive exactly what the victim perceives (much like a movie). Only if the illusion is pre-programmed, or the power is built with No Conscious Control (-1), he gets no clue (other than the victim's behavior).[/quote']

 

Dont have Ultimate Mentalist so I'll check in to it thanks!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Illusions and Memory

 

Actually according to Ultimate Mentalist' date=' p. 35, this is not true: typically a mentalist gets at least some idea of what the victim perceives, and if he keeps some kind of mental contact (such as feeding END to prevent deteriorating), the mentalist gets to perceive exactly what the victim perceives (much like a movie). Only if the illusion is pre-programmed, or the power is built with No Conscious Control (-1), he gets no clue (other than the victim's behavior).[/quote']

 

Damn it... I'm not on page 35 yet. Actually, I skipped straight to the end to read all about the new combat maneuvers.

[Shaft]

Re: Mental Illusions and Memory

 

Actually according to Ultimate Mentalist' date=' p. 35, this is not true: typically a mentalist gets at least some idea of what the victim perceives, and if he keeps some kind of mental contact (such as feeding END to prevent deteriorating), the mentalist gets to perceive exactly what the victim perceives (much like a movie). Only if the illusion is pre-programmed, or the power is built with No Conscious Control (-1), he gets no clue (other than the victim's behavior).[/quote']

 

That's pretty cool. I think The Ult. Mentalist is going to be added to my collection shortly... once the Xmas credit cards are paid off.