handleyj Posted February 15, 2007 Report Share Posted February 15, 2007 My questions here are about Valerious The Harper who is one of the sample characters in Sidekick Revised (page 119). Ol' V has some skill levels that confuse me: +2 to Magic Skill Rolls (cost 10) +1 with Magic Spells (cost 3) Greater Orb of Fire: +3 with Fire Magic Rolls; OAF (-1) (cost 3) Then he has these Power Skills: Air Magic 13- Fire Magic 15- Sorcery 14- Wizardry 14- Questions: 1) What do you think the difference is between the first and second skill levels? I understand the points differences, but in role playing these, what would differentiate a Magic Skill Roll from a Magic Spells roll? 2) So basically, if he's casting a fire spell, he can allocate +6 points to the Fire Magic roll? 3) It seems to me that the Greater Orb of Fire was built with three 2 point skill levels, then the OAF added to make the cost = 3 points. But on page 29 of Sidekick Revised it states, "Characters may only buy 3-point and more expensive Skill Levels with Focus." What's up with that? Is Valerious breaking the rules? 4) The second skill level (+1 with Magic Spells (cost 3)) also seems to be a rule breaker. Again from page 29, it says the 3 point skill levels are for adding +1 to any three related skills. But Valerious has four magic skills, and a boat load more spells than just three. So what's up with that? Seems that he should have purchased a 5 point skill level... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handleyj Posted February 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper Bumping this...hoping someone can help me out. I'm still very much a noob at this stuff, and when I read a rule, then see the examples not line up with my expectations...it's a bit frustrating. I'm hoping there's a typo in there...that would mean I understand things enough to find inconsistencies. Or maybe they don't line because it made sense for this particular character... Or maybe I missed a rule someplace, and the example character is good...in which case I need to read more carefully. In case anyone doesn't have Sidekick Revised, the same example character can be found in Fantasy Hero. Thanks! -joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper Looking at it now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper Ok, +2 with Magic Skills are 5pt Skill Levels with a defined category called "Magic Skills" - similar to "Intellect Skills" [sidekick p29] +1 with Magic Spells is a 3pt Combat Skill Level with "Spells" similar to "Martial Arts" [sidekick p25] +3 with Fire Magic Rolls are simply 2pt Skill Levels with Fire Magic in an OAF (real cost 3pts). This is the same as a +1 To A Skill Roll for 2pts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Schultz Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper For the first one, I"m guessing the difference between "Magic Spells" and "Magic skills" is that spells covers the actual act of casting (ie, eldrich energies burning through one's body). Skills can cover theoretical stuff, such as Thaumaturgy or KS: Magical Beasts or Potion-Brewing or History of Magic or Wand-Making. From a Harry Potter standpoint, the first is Charms, while the other covers the entire Hogwarts curriculum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handleyj Posted February 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper Ah! Combat skill level on that second one. I get it. Did you see that someplace, or did you just know it from experience? Also, any insight on buying 2pt Skill Levels with OAF even though page 29 seems to say that you shouldn't buy Skill Levels of less than 3pt with a focus? Is that something you would normally allow (i.e. 2pt Skill Levels with a focus)? Thanks! -joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handleyj Posted February 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper Thanks Kevin. I was kinda thinking the same thing, but I'm glad to hear someone else support that theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handleyj Posted February 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper Doh! I typed a quick reply to Ghost, but it seems to have disappeared. Hopefully I won't be repeating the post here: 1) Combat skill level - I get it! Very nice. Did you see that someplace in the character description, or did you just figure it out based on experience? 2) Any insight into buying 2pt Skill Levels with an OAF? Page 29 of Sidekick seems to say that you shouldn't buy any skill levels lower than 3pts with a focus. Is that something you would normally allow as a GM anyway? Thanks! -joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper Doh! I typed a quick reply to Ghost, but it seems to have disappeared. Hopefully I won't be repeating the post here: 1) Combat skill level - I get it! Very nice. Did you see that someplace in the character description, or did you just figure it out based on experience? 2) Any insight into buying 2pt Skill Levels with an OAF? Page 29 of Sidekick seems to say that you shouldn't buy any skill levels lower than 3pts with a focus. Is that something you would normally allow as a GM anyway? Thanks! -joe 1) Experience. That's how I'd buy 'em. 2) They aren't quite Skill Levels, as actual Skill Ranks with a Limitation. And yes, I'd allow it as a GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper 2) Any insight into buying 2pt Skill Levels with an OAF? Page 29 of Sidekick seems to say that you shouldn't buy any skill levels lower than 3pts with a focus. Is that something you would normally allow as a GM anyway? -joe If you wanna get technical about it, I thik the reason this is legal is because the pluses aren't actual Skill Levels, but Skills as a Power. A similar non magical build would be climbing gear that gives a bonus to Climbing skill on a Focus, or Superior quality Lockpicks, or similar widgets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper If you wanna get technical about it' date=' I thik the reason this is legal is because the pluses aren't actual Skill Levels, but Skills as a Power. A similar non magical build would be climbing gear that gives a bonus to Climbing skill on a Focus, or Superior quality Lockpicks, or similar widgets.[/quote'] Well, few bits. Skill Ranks are +1 to a specific Skill - and may have Limitations/Advantages as normal (normally they are built as a power, but it's not required). Skill Levels are +1 to specific sets of skills or circumstances. These have the restrictions on when you can apply Limitations/Advantages. As reference, the Bestiary has a number of instances where animals have Skill Ranks with Limitations (usually things like Concealment Ranks, Self Only). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper +2 to Magic Skill Rolls (cost 10) - When he casts a spell he has to roll his Magic skill roll (Air Magic 13- Fire Magic 15- Sorcery 14- Wizardry 14-) to make it work. This allows him to add 2 to the "Activation Roll". +1 with Magic Spells (cost 3) This allows him to add +1 to his OCV to hit with his spells (or ECV or a few other things depending on the spell) Greater Orb of Fire: +3 with Fire Magic Rolls; OAF (-1) (cost 3) This is the same as the first one, but it only applies to the Fire Magic skill, and yes this does break the rules. Don't let it bother you too much, you will see this kind of thing all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper I don't have sidekick but the character appears in Fantasy Hero, so... In CORE Hero, +2 with magic skill would cost 4 points, and there would be no difference in practice between the cost of magic skill and 'magic spells' as ALL magic skill does is makes it easier to case spells. Now what we have here, and is not I imagine explained in Sidekick, is a campaign rule about how magic skill works: it is split into different schools which means that you can't buy 'magic skill' normally, so you need to buy higher cost levels. You are not looking at core Hero system, you are looking at a variant with house rules. In an introductory product like Sidekick it is of some concern that examples that confuse rather than illustrate appear. Finally buying 'skill ranks' in a focus, IMO completely circumvents the rules about the minimum cost of skill levels. You can buy skills as powers, and limit them, and if you bought a skill+ranks I might allow it, but I would not allow the ranks to be bought on their own just so that you could get a cheaper skill roll. That's just wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper I don't have sidekick but the character appears in Fantasy Hero, so... In CORE Hero, +2 with magic skill would cost 4 points, and there would be no difference in practice between the cost of magic skill and 'magic spells' as ALL magic skill does is makes it easier to case spells. Now what we have here, and is not I imagine explained in Sidekick, is a campaign rule about how magic skill works: it is split into different schools which means that you can't buy 'magic skill' normally, so you need to buy higher cost levels. You are not looking at core Hero system, you are looking at a variant with house rules. In an introductory product like Sidekick it is of some concern that examples that confuse rather than illustrate appear. It's not really a house rule. Under "Skill Levels" (p29) in the Skill Levels Table there's a note on the 5pts Skill Level "(or any other group of similar skills the GM is willing to permit)" - obviously in the case of our example one of the groups the GM permitted was a Magic Skills group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper I'm with the briefcase bearer in this case. That's a nice briefcase by the way, where'd you get that? (glad to see it's in your sig). Where was I? OH YES. For clarification, the short version is that you have Skill Levels, as they apply to KS, SS, PS & the like, and Combat Skill Levels, such as your +OCV with magic. Those Combat Skill Levels (or CSLs) can be improved, so you might later purchase a set of 5 point CSLs "for fire magic," which would allow you to improve your OCV, DCV while using it, or increase the Damage Classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper The Ultimate Skill p11 "Improving a Skill Roll costs +2 points . . . Characters may apply Limitations to these straitforward improvements to individual Skill Rolls, unless the GM rules otherwise." Then the book gives an example of buying +4 to Stealth with a -1/2 Limitation Only In Wilderness Environments. Moving onto p301 (bloody thick book!) 2pt Skill Levels can increase a Skill Roll or Characteristic Roll by +1. "However, typically characters only buy them for Characteristic Rolls, since most skills with a roll can improve it for the same cost (and unlike 2-point Skill Levels those bonuses can be Limited)." Interesting at least. In the end: GM call if you can Limit a Plus to a single skill roll at the 2pt level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper The Ultimate Skill p11 "Improving a Skill Roll costs +2 points . . . Characters may apply Limitations to these straitforward improvements to individual Skill Rolls, unless the GM rules otherwise." Wow I don't have the Ultimate Skill yet, that's interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper Wow I don't have the Ultimate Skill yet' date=' that's interesting.[/quote'] Took me a bit, but I found it in the Core Rules: 5ER p42 under Skill Rolls - Standard Skill Rolls. And thinking about it... there's some sense in it. +2 Stealth w/ -1/2 Limitation = 3pts vs +2 Skill Levels w -1/2 Limitation = 4pts. At this point why not simply purchase +2 to the Skill in question or use the Skill Level to fullest effect and add two more Skills to that list for the same 4pts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper Took me a bit, but I found it in the Core Rules: 5ER p42 under Skill Rolls - Standard Skill Rolls. And thinking about it... there's some sense in it. +2 Stealth w/ -1/2 Limitation = 3pts vs +2 Skill Levels w -1/2 Limitation = 4pts. At this point why not simply purchase +2 to the Skill in question or use the Skill Level to fullest effect and add two more Skills to that list for the same 4pts. If I'm understanding you correctly, while you can do the +2 Stealth -1/2, you cannot do the +2 Skill Levels as, you can't add a limitation to 3pt skill levels. So the real difference would be: +2 Stealth w/-1/2 for 3 points or +2 DEX Skills w/-1/2 for 7 Points. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper If I'm understanding you correctly, while you can do the +2 Stealth -1/2, you cannot do the +2 Skill Levels as, you can't add a limitation to 3pt skill levels. So the real difference would be: +2 Stealth w/-1/2 for 3 points or +2 DEX Skills w/-1/2 for 7 Points. Right? The Lowest Skill Level you can add a Limitation to is the 3pt Level. 5ER p70. Since the 3pt Level is "three related skills" and the original concept called for only being good at Stealth in a Limited arena you're either a) shortchanging your Skill Level two skills; or overcharging yourself for Limited Stealth Levels. In my example the second option (2 3-points Skill Levels with a -1/2 Limitation = 4 pts) costs as much as 2 Unlimited Levels in the Specific Skill. Which is why you can buy levels of a Specific Skill (Only) and Limit it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper The Lowest Skill Level you can add a Limitation to is the 3pt Level. 5ER p70. Err...Am I losing my mind? When did that happen? I thought it was the 5pt level (please tell me it used to be 5pt and I'm not just getting old). Geez looks like it's time to go back and read Fred again (well actually it will be the first time I've read all the way through revised). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper Err...Am I losing my mind? When did that happen? I thought it was the 5pt level (please tell me it used to be 5pt and I'm not just getting old). Geez looks like it's time to go back and read Fred again (well actually it will be the first time I've read all the way through revised). You are thinking about combat levels. This whole thread makes me very sad. I never really did understand why you could not limit ANY levels, no matter what the cost, but given that has been a rule practically forever, this jiggedy-pokery getting round it all seems very unnecessary. Buying skills as a power is dodgy anyway, if you think about it, but I can see the very occasional need - a magic ring of martial arts - or boots of stealth - or whatever, which SHOULD logically be limited. I do wish we could clear out the complications rather than add to them. Wouldn't it be a lot easier if we just allowed limitations on any skill level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper The Lowest Skill Level you can add a Limitation to is the 3pt Level. 5ER p70. Correct, Also, just to clarify: The 5-point CSL is the smallest CSL (Combat Skill Level) characters can buy with Limitations. 5ER p54 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper You are thinking about combat levels. This whole thread makes me very sad. I never really did understand why you could not limit ANY levels, no matter what the cost, but given that has been a rule practically forever, this jiggedy-pokery getting round it all seems very unnecessary. Buying skills as a power is dodgy anyway, if you think about it, but I can see the very occasional need - a magic ring of martial arts - or boots of stealth - or whatever, which SHOULD logically be limited. I do wish we could clear out the complications rather than add to them. Wouldn't it be a lot easier if we just allowed limitations on any skill level? I wasn't talking about Skills as Powers, but yes most of the time it can be dodgy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Re: Skill Level Questions: Valerious The Harper Correct, Also, just to clarify: The 5-point CSL is the smallest CSL (Combat Skill Level) characters can buy with Limitations. 5ER p54 Ah yes okay. Phew I was starting to think I was losing my mind, which is scary since I never found it the last time I lost it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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