Poisons

[GAZZA]

OK, I want a character that has a poisonous bite - a paralysing poison. There's a couple of ways to do this:

• Some sort of Entangle. Kind of all-or-nothing, and if you "break" it you're not even slowed. Not really appropriate.
  
• Mind Control, based on CON. Same problems as with Entangle.
  
• Drain DEX and/or SPD. Does the trick fairly well.

So I start with 2d6 Drain DEX and SPD simultaneously (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Return 5 pts/5 minutes (+1/2) [60 Active], 4 clips of 6 charges (-1/4), must follow Grab (-1/2)

 

It's going to have a Linked Penetrating HKA that (technically) has to do BODY in order for the poison to work, but since few characters have Hardened resistant defences, I'm going to call that a -0 limitation.

 

Mechanically, he Grabs someone, bites them, and injects 6 charges worth of poison that attacks on each of his phases from now on. The "reasonably common" way to shut it off would be to treat the poison appropriately.

 

All good so far? OK, here's the niggly bits:

• The creature in question is sort of snake like. Immunity to snake venom should make you immune to this poison. I don't want to go the NND route (because frankly I think Power Defence is a pretty reasonable way of building poison resistance - and that's backed up by one of FRED's examples of Power Defence), so what sort of limitation is "Not against creatures with snake venom immunity"? -1/4 feels about right to me (it is a Champions game, but Life Support Immunity to Poison isn't exactly ubiquitous).
  
• This is supposed to be a combat-effective devastating poison. But what if I wanted the same attack to occur only once per Turn, once per Minute, and so on (any worse than once per 5 minutes would be silly, since you'd get recoveries more often than take damage)? The old HSA1 had a Gradual Effect table for this that is completely different to the current Gradual Effect table; I think -1/4 per level down the Time Chart was how it suggested. This still seem OK to you guys?
  
• Is there a more "correct" way to do poisons in 5th edition? I realise that NND Does Body is the accepted mechanism for deadly poisons, but it's obviously not the way to go for merely debilitating poisons.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Poisons

 

Interesting idea. Also interesting that I was messing with a Speed drain today for something else. Anyway....TECHNICALLY if you have continuous, then one successful attack will continue until it is shut off (for whatever reason) - you don't need to inject 6 shots. That bit needles me a bit.

 

The way I think I would prefer to see it done is with just four charges (-1) and uncontrolled (+1/2).

 

Cost would then be

 

20 + 2 1/2 - 1 1/2

 

or 28 points (70 active)

 

as opposed to 20 + 2 - 3/4

 

or 34 points (60 active)

 

The Uncontrolled would allow it to continue for 6 phases, unless neutralised somehow. You may have resons for not doing it like that, although I am not sure what they might be...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Poisons

 

Sorry, submitted the same answer twice. I'm a klutz. Must be this DEX drain venom I'm testing....

[GAZZA]

Re: Poisons

 

Interesting idea. Also interesting that I was messing with a Speed drain today for something else. Anyway....TECHNICALLY if you have continuous' date=' then one successful attack will continue until it is shut off (for whatever reason) - you don't need to inject 6 shots. That bit needles me a bit. [/quote']

Err... no?

 

A Continuous attack will still end once you stop paying END for it, right? Which means if you are using Charges... you can connect the dots.

 

The way I think I would prefer to see it done is with just four charges (-1) and uncontrolled (+1/2).

You could do it with Continuing Charges, but not just straight Charges (unless you really don't mind a single attack, and then gone...)

 

Continuing Charges work for all cases where you want to attack per Phase, but it doesn't work so well for a less virulent poison (you need to extend the duration of the charge too much).

 

The reason I use the "clips of charges" thing is because that's how HSA1 did it, which means I have (to some extent) "prior art". Of course it can certainly be argued that this "prior art" is the equivalent of a kindergarten finger painting instead of the Mona Lisa.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Poisons

 

Err... no?

 

A Continuous attack will still end once you stop paying END for it, right? Which means if you are using Charges... you can connect the dots.

 

 

You could do it with Continuing Charges, but not just straight Charges (unless you really don't mind a single attack, and then gone...)

 

Continuing Charges work for all cases where you want to attack per Phase, but it doesn't work so well for a less virulent poison (you need to extend the duration of the charge too much).

 

The reason I use the "clips of charges" thing is because that's how HSA1 did it, which means I have (to some extent) "prior art". Of course it can certainly be argued that this "prior art" is the equivalent of a kindergarten finger painting instead of the Mona Lisa.

 

 

You are right, but you can inject END with continuous uncontrolled attacks: and you could build an End reserve for the amount of venom you produce, with a low recharge rate, which seems a more realistic way to simulate the power. Say 70 END (7 points) and a REC of 1 (1 point). Then you have 10 lots of venom you can inject (and you can do 1 shot or all 10 in a single bite), and you can recover a dose of venom in just over a minute. You could cut the recharge rate a bit is this seems unrealistic (say 2 per 5 minutes, which would also cost 1 point, and allows a dose to be recharged in 20 minutes).

 

I would not allow you to invest multiple charges unless you had bought uncontrolled: a continuous attack, for instance, should stop if you get out of range, or if you lose LOS - that is silly for venom - so you would need uncontrolled anyway. Come to think on it, that is my problem with the build - the lack of uncontrolled that was what was bugging me.

 

I like the END battery rather than the charges as they seem more realistic for a metabolically produced venom, if that is what this is: for a mechanical snake the charges are fine.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Poisons

 

.............................................

 

All good so far? OK, here's the niggly bits:

• The creature in question is sort of snake like. Immunity to snake venom should make you immune to this poison. I don't want to go the NND route (because frankly I think Power Defence is a pretty reasonable way of building poison resistance - and that's backed up by one of FRED's examples of Power Defence), so what sort of limitation is "Not against creatures with snake venom immunity"? -1/4 feels about right to me (it is a Champions game, but Life Support Immunity to Poison isn't exactly ubiquitous).

 
Possibly a generous limtiation value - LS (poison) is positively rare in most games I've played in, so this may not be worth a limtiation at all. Depends on your game though.
 

This is supposed to be a combat-effective devastating poison. But what if I wanted the same attack to occur only once per Turn' date=' once per Minute, and so on (any worse than once per 5 minutes would be silly, since you'd get recoveries more often than take damage)? The old HSA1 had a Gradual Effect table for this that is completely different to the current Gradual Effect table; I think -1/4 per level down the Time Chart was how it suggested. This still seem OK to you guys?[/quote']
 
I'd have to say go with the current rules, but if you prefer the old one, cool. Note the current rules suggest that, even where you would normally get recoveries, you don;t get to recover any damage until it is all delivered. That seems like a massive advantage to me,potentially, so maybe the new rules are not that sparky afterall.
 
 

Is there a more "correct" way to do poisons in 5th edition? I realise that NND Does Body is the accepted mechanism for deadly poisons' date=' but it's obviously not the way to go for merely [b']debilitating[/b] poisons.

 

 

There is no 'correct' build - that would involve making a decision that placed limits on the creativity of the enlightened gamer, infringing their role playing rights.

 

Personally I think there should be a 'correct'* build, and sod their rights.

 

 

 

* or at least suggested; hopefully this will be provided by The Ultimate Blaster

[GAZZA]

Re: Poisons

 

You could do it that way. The suggestion of HSA1 (implied) is that you essentially have Continuing Charges (for 1 phase each...) which explicitly do not need Uncontrolled.

 

But your way certainly works.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Poisons

 

You could do it that way. The suggestion of HSA1 (implied) is that you essentially have Continuing Charges (for 1 phase each...) which explicitly do not need Uncontrolled.

 

But your way certainly works.

 

Again, quite right - continuing charges do not require the uncontrolled advantage to work just like they had it, and 4x1 turn continuing charges is a -1/2! Even cheaper!

 

I'm glad we had this chat

[GAZZA]

Re: Poisons

 

Continuing charges works much less well if you move it down the time chart, though. If you want a poison that attacks once per Turn, and does so for 5 Turns, you need a continuing charge that lasts for a minute (with the attendant lesser limitation) even though it's not going to really attack them that often. This is also a limit to using an END Reserve, unless you have some idea for an appropriately gradual advantage for "pay END only once per Turn/Minute" and so on.

 

I quite like the "clips of charges" HSA1 "hack" as it does avoid these issues; it is arguably questionable from a strict rule perspective, but since it looks like most slow acting poisons built this way will need some sort of new advantage anyway, it doesn't really raise my hackles too much (YMMV).

[pinecone]

Re: Poisons

 

Seems a little over analyzed to me...contining charges for X mins plus Only attacks once per turn sounds like a push....to me what counts is how many times it attacks 4 times in one turn or 4 times in one min...that sounds like more of a limit than an advantage...

[GAZZA]

Re: Poisons

 

Seems a little over analyzed to me...contining charges for X mins plus Only attacks once per turn sounds like a push....to me what counts is how many times it attacks 4 times in one turn or 4 times in one min...that sounds like more of a limit than an advantage...

Absolutely it's a limit, which is why continuing charges doesn't really work (as it becomes, if not an advantage, at least less of a limitation to spread the poison over a longer period).

 

Of course you could modify continuing charges to work, but if you're making a modification anyway, the "clips of charges" tied to Gradual Effect (with -1/4 for every step down the time chart), as per HSA1, seems at least as simple a mechanism. YMMV.

[schir1964]

Re: Poisons

 

I'm just pondering...

 

Why use charges? You can of course, but I was just wondering.

 

Why not use Uncontrolled for the base building block instead and build from there?

 

Also, I seem to recall reading somewhere that with environmental diseases, toxins, and so forth, that you do not get to use your natural recovery against those effects specifically. I could be wrong, but if that were to be applied with this particular build, then effects occurring beyond 5 minutes are just as deadly if not immediate.

 

I guess you could look at this as a type of "Side Effect" in that the character doesn't get to use thier recovery against the damage inflicted.

 

Anyway, just some thoughts.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[GAZZA]

Re: Poisons

 

Why use charges? You can of course, but I was just wondering.

 

Why not use Uncontrolled for the base building block instead and build from there?

That does work. You can buy an END reserve, charge it up with the number of times you want it to "attack", and then buy the power as Uncontrolled.

 

END Reserves tend to be problematic with getting the numbers right, especially REC, though. It's not that it's completely inappropriate (presumably the venomous creature slowly replenishes their store of venom), but more that it's tricky to get the recovery rate right.

 

For example, let's say you want the power as I described it:

 

2d6 Drain SPD and DEX (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Uncontrolled (+1/2), return 5 pts/5 minutes (+1/2)

 

70 active points (a little higher, but so far that's OK). My power has 6 "attacks", so that means the END reserve needs enough to attack 6 times. That's 42 END. Alright, we'll fudge it up to 50.

 

Next, my power can be delivered 4 times per day. Now you have a choice:

• 
  
• Increase the END reserve to 170 (enough for 4 attacks per day). A quick "back of envelope" calculation suggests that you want about 7 REC, recovers once per hour (-1) for a total of 20 more points.
  
• Buy 7 REC, recovers once per hour (-1) for a total of 8 more points.

However, the former solution allows a massive 24 phase attack, while the latter requires you to wait 6 hours between attacks. I'm not knocking either of these solutions, you understand - they may well be more realistic - but I am pointing out that it's difficult to use an END Reserve to match the "6 attacks, 4 times per day" as exactly as the clips of charges ala HSA1 does it.

 

Also, I seem to recall reading somewhere that with environmental diseases, toxins, and so forth, that you do not get to use your natural recovery against those effects specifically. I could be wrong, but if that were to be applied with this particular build, then effects occurring beyond 5 minutes are just as deadly if not immediate.

Drains lower your maximum BODY or STUN or END (if that's what they're draining), so your REC can't help you. But "just as deadly if not immediate" is not the same as "just as deadly", because Continuing Charges and Uncontrolled powers need a "reasonably common" means to shut the power off (defined here as "treating the poison appropriately", which might mean some sort of Paramedics roll, or perhaps application of Healing, or whatever). The longer the poison/disease takes to kill you, the easier it is to avoid dying from it.

 

The HSA1 had Gradual Effect as moving the attack down the time chart for every -1/4 (so "every phase" is the default, for -0; then "every turn" is -1/4, every minute -1/2, and so forth). Obviously if you move the attack rate down further than the recovery duration you have a very weak poison (ie if your Drain recovers every Turn, then a Gradual Effect of once per minute allows the target 5 recoveries for every attack).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Poisons

 

Whatever build you use I think you need either continuing charges or uncontrolled, otherwise your continuous attack fails if, for example, you lose line of sight on a target - you cannot, within the rules, 'front load' charges into a victim witht he contuinuous advantage alone. You can handwave that, sure, so long as you know that is what you are doing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Poisons

 

170 point END reserve Cannot use more than 42 END in a single go (approx 1/3 of total, say -1/4) 14 points

REC 3 points every 20 minutes 2 point (2 points at -3/4)

 

So for 16 points you can have an END reserve that allows you to inject up to 6 lots of venom in a single attack. You can do that 4 times in quick succession, and thereafter you recover enough venom for a single dite in about 40 minutes, or a full bite every 4 hours and 40 minutes, or a full recharge in a little under 19 hours. If you wwere not dead set on 4 lots of 6 doses you could make the numbers a bit more efficient.

 

Actually one problem whether you use END or charges is that they will be used even if the attack completely misses, which is not how most venom injectors work.

 

Not sure how to deal with that puppy, other than by editing the sfx to fit the mechanical build.

[schir1964]

Re: Poisons

 

That does work. You can buy an END reserve' date=' charge it up with the number of times you want it to "attack", and then buy the power as Uncontrolled.[/quote']

I wasn't suggesting an END Reserve. You don't need an END Reserve with Uncontrolled, you just feed the amount of END into the Untrolled Power and feeds off that pool when it acitvates on each or your phases. But this is just explaining these rules as the currently work in order to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

 

Perhaps I should ask a few more questions.

 

Do you view a single "poison" attack as "delivering a lethal dose of poison" or as a "delivering a non-lethal dose" that can add up to a lethal dose with multiple attacks.

 

How you view this will determine the more preferred build.

 

Using "Uncontolled" works better for concept where the attack is "delivering a lethal dose". The target is poisoned and they will eventually die unless specific measures are taken.

 

Using "Cumulative" works better for the concept where the attack is "delivering a non-lethal dose" but multiple doses can become lethal.

 

The second question is what is your primary guideline for building powers?

 

1) Cost of the power. More efficient legal builds that cost less are the guideline.

2) Ease of use. Builds that are easy to use and keep track of are the guideline.

3) Accurate simulation. How close you can mimic the concept is the guideline.

 

There is nothing wrong with any of the above, but it will also have an effect on which build will be preferred.

 

Now, here is a build that may be more to your liking.

 

2d6 Suppress SPD: Uncontrolled (+1/2), Custom Limitation: Reduced Activation Interval (Varies: Every Turn -1/4, 1 Minute -1/2, 5 Minutes -3/4, 20 Minutes -1, etc...) [15 AP, 15 Points, 1.5 END]

2d6 Suppress DEX: Uncontrolled (+1/2), Custom Limitation: Reduced Activation Interval (Varies: Every Turn -1/4, 1 Minute -1/2, 5 Minutes -3/4, 20 Minutes -1, etc...), Linked To Suppress -1/2 [15 AP, 10 Points, 1.5 END]

 

These powers are culmulative by default and can be customized further fairly easily. Each time they are used, you feed in the total amount of END you want them to use. This is no worse than keeping track of Fade Rates.

 

Total END Usage Per Activation: 3 END

Total Active Points: 30

Costs:

Every Phase: 25 Points

Every Turn: 20 Points

Every Minute: 17 Points

Every 5 Minutes: 15 Points

Every 20 Minutes: 13 Points

 

If you don't want to worry about END, tack on Reduced END and Persistent for another +1 Advantage.

 

Or throw on Gradual Effect. This constuct is easy to work with.

 

This is just another idea to look at. Just kicking things around.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Poisons

 

Actually one problem whether you use END or charges is that they will be used even if the attack completely misses' date=' which is not how most venom injectors work.[/quote']

Clarification: This is true in general.... HOWEVER.. (8^D) Uncontrolled doesn't work this way...

 

You only feed END into an Uncontrolled Attack "after" an attack succeeds.

 

Just Another Tidbit

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Poisons

 

Clarification: This is true in general.... HOWEVER.. (8^D) Uncontrolled doesn't work this way...

 

You only feed END into an Uncontrolled Attack "after" an attack succeeds.

 

Just Another Tidbit

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Thankyou; one more rule I did not read properly

 

Now I have, uncontrolled seems a must for this sort of thing.

 

Presumably, although this is not entirely clear, you need to sepend at least enough END for one attack?

[schir1964]

Re: Poisons

 

Thankyou; one more rule I did not read properly

 

Now I have, uncontrolled seems a must for this sort of thing.

 

Presumably, although this is not entirely clear, you need to sepend at least enough END for one attack?

I should have been more thorough in my clarification.

 

You always need to spend the END required to "activate" any particular power (presuming you haven't added the advantage Reduced END to get Zero END with the power), but Uncontrolled allows you spend extra END in order for the power to continue operating on it's own and independent of the character.

 

So yes, you still need to spend a minimum amount of END for the attack.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[GAZZA]

Re: Poisons

 

Whatever build you use I think you need either continuing charges or uncontrolled' date=' otherwise your continuous attack fails if, for example, you lose line of sight on a target - you cannot, within the rules, 'front load' charges into a victim witht he contuinuous advantage alone. You can handwave that, sure, so long as you know that is what you are doing.[/quote']

I think the reasoning HSA1 uses is as follows:

• 
  
• A Continuous Uncontrolled attack can be "front loaded" with as much END as you like.
  
• Continuing Charges are essentially automatically Uncontrolled.
  
• Therefore you should be able to "front load" more than 1 Continuing Charge with such an attack (as the charge mechanic essentially replicates END).
  
• All Charges can be construed as Continuing for 1 Phase.

As far as I can see that's the reason that HSA1 does it that way. Not all of these assumptions are uncontroversial, especially the last two.

[GAZZA]

Re: Poisons

 

Do you view a single "poison" attack as "delivering a lethal dose of poison" or as a "delivering a non-lethal dose" that can add up to a lethal dose with multiple attacks.

Unfortunate choice of terminology. The "apparently official" way of doing "lethal poisons" is with NND Does BODY attacks. "Nonlethal" poisons is basically where the debate is at, since obviously NND Does Body won't work for a poison that saps your STR or paralyses.

 

But if I rephrase your question: "Do I view a single poison attack as delivering a paralysis effect, or as delivering a slow down effect that can add up to paralysis with multiple attacks?" (Forgive me if this doesn't accurately capture what you're asking).

 

I view it as the former, with the obvious corollary that some targets will not be fully paralysed by it (depends on how high their DEX and SPD are).

 

The second question is what is your primary guideline for building powers?

(snip!)

 

My primary guideline would be sort of "none of the above". I think all of those are worth looking at, but primarily my guideline is "Does the cost of this power accurately reflect its utility?" And to be fair here there isn't really a big difference in cost with any of the approaches so far suggested, but there are issues with using Continuing Charges if you slow down the time frame of the poison delivery (you end up with less of a limitation even though it is more limiting); your END approach does not have that problem.

 

2d6 Suppress SPD: Uncontrolled (+1/2), Custom Limitation: Reduced Activation Interval (Varies: Every Turn -1/4, 1 Minute -1/2, 5 Minutes -3/4, 20 Minutes -1, etc...) [15 AP, 15 Points, 1.5 END]

(snip!)

 

These powers are culmulative by default and can be customized further fairly easily.

I'm afraid in my campaign Suppress is not Cumulative. I disagree so strongly with the whole concept of Cumulative Suppress that I cannot adequately express my opinion without resorting to language that would be against the Terms and Conditions of the forum.

 

But otherwise, yes, that works. And if substitute "Drain" for "Cumulative Suppress" you can essentially still use this idea.

[schir1964]

Re: Poisons

 

I'm afraid in my campaign Suppress is not Cumulative. I disagree so strongly with the whole concept of Cumulative Suppress that I cannot adequately express my opinion without resorting to language that would be against the Terms and Conditions of the forum.

 

But otherwise, yes, that works. And if substitute "Drain" for "Cumulative Suppress" you can essentially still use this idea.

Understood. It is these personal preferences if left unspoken can lead to confusion and misunderstanding what the issue is and how to help.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Poisons

 

I think the reasoning HSA1 uses is as follows:

• 
  
• A Continuous Uncontrolled attack can be "front loaded" with as much END as you like.
  
• Continuing Charges are essentially automatically Uncontrolled.
  
• Therefore you should be able to "front load" more than 1 Continuing Charge with such an attack (as the charge mechanic essentially replicates END).
  
• All Charges can be construed as Continuing for 1 Phase.

As far as I can see that's the reason that HSA1 does it that way. Not all of these assumptions are uncontroversial, especially the last two.

 

I think that the problem comes with that last point: charges can be considered continuing for a phase, but the power is supposed to last a lot longer than a phase, hence the need, to my mind, for continuing charges, or uncontrolled advantage.

 

I'm not saying you should not do it that way, it may be fine, although it does feel a little wrong to me, but it is a handwave/GM call, rather than the official way of doing it. HSA is a 4th edition product, I believe, and that particular fix was not included int he current edition.

[caris]

Re: Poisons

 

So I start with 2d6 Drain DEX and SPD simultaneously (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Return 5 pts/5 minutes (+1/2) [60 Active], 4 clips of 6 charges (-1/4), must follow Grab (-1/2)

 

It seems like you are trying to use the 6 Charges to define the duration of the power and the Clips to define the number of uses per day. Wouldn't Continuing Charges look simpler and skip the full phase penalty to "change" clips? With 4 Continuing Charges you would have a -1/2 (3 Phases up to 1 Turn) or -1/4 (1 Turn + 1 Phase to 1 minute) Limitation, pick the level that would give the character the appropriate number of applications of Damage.

 

*Edit: I think that you may be overlooking that you do not have to set the time for the maximum for the given level. I could see where the full minute would be a little over kill, but 2 to 3 Turns is a viable option, and is the exact same amount of Limitation as your 4 clips of 6 charges.

[caris]

Re: Poisons

 

I think the reasoning HSA1 uses is as follows:

• 
  
• A Continuous Uncontrolled attack can be "front loaded" with as much END as you like.
  
• Continuing Charges are essentially automatically Uncontrolled.
  
• Therefore you should be able to "front load" more than 1 Continuing Charge with such an attack (as the charge mechanic essentially replicates END).
  
• All Charges can be construed as Continuing for 1 Phase.

As far as I can see that's the reason that HSA1 does it that way. Not all of these assumptions are uncontroversial, especially the last two.

 

OK, after reading this, I think I see what you are trying to do, but I have two questions.

 

Can the character choose to use less than 6 charges with a single attack?

 

If the character can use less than 6 charges, can he make another attack with the remaining charges before he has to spend the full phase changing clips?

 

If conceptually, you do not want the character to be able to do those two things, I am not sure why this would be better than a Continuing Charge (and in some cases it would be the worse choice).

 

I think one of the other assumptions that HSA1 was making is that each Charge represented one "dose" of the poison and that each additional charge represented another "dose." Edit: In other words I think they were assuming that the character in most builds would be able to choose how much "poison" to use in any given attack.