Building a Puppeteer

[SableWyvern]

I have a player who wants a PC based on some Japanese anime guy, who controls a life-sized puppet.

 

ATM, we have used the Follower perk to represent the situation, as follows:

 

Puppet 50 Points (250+75 Character Point Follower)

Requires Concentration (1/2 DCV) -1/2

Limited Range 20" -1/4

Requires LOS -1/4

Control Can Be Suppressed/Drained/Dispelled -1/2

Fine Manipulation Requires Puppeteering roll -1/4

Requires Gestures (Both Hands) -1/2

Real Cost: 15

 

If the requirements required by the limitations aren't met, the puppet is just a regular, life-sized puppet. Otherwise, the puppet acts under the character's control -- they have identical SPD and DEX for convenience.

 

Is this a reasonable build? Is there a better way?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

A Follower is probably the easiest way to go. However, followers typically have a mind of their own. Presumably, the puppet will not.

 

Given the main character must be within 20", and in LOS, and will be cut down to half DCV, I hope he's not planning on that puppet being used in combat a lot. He'll be very exposed to counterattack whenever he is controlling the puppet.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

Nice to know that I might be close to the mark on the first try with an unusual concept.

 

However, followers typically have a mind of their own. Presumably, the puppet will not.

 

Correct.

 

Given the main character must be within 20", and in LOS, and will be cut down to half DCV, I hope he's not planning on that puppet being used in combat a lot. He'll be very exposed to counterattack whenever he is controlling the puppet.

 

The puppet's primary function is as a combat machine, so his vulnerability while using it may be an issue. However, given typical movement rates in the campaign and the PC's high SPD, ranged attacks should present the only real potential for serious concern. Increasing the control range won't be problem if it becomes necessary.

[braincraft]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

I'm pretty sure I know the character this is based on. You might be better off with Duplication, or Summon with the Slavishly Loyal advantage; I would just count it as a special effect for ranged attacks/TK.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

The puppet's primary function is as a combat machine' date=' so his vulnerability while using it may be an issue. However, given typical movement rates in the campaign and the PC's high SPD, ranged attacks should present the only real potential for serious concern. Increasing the control range won't be problem if it becomes necessary.[/quote']

 

20" range imposes a -6 OCV penalty, IIRC. Half move to within 16", and it's -4. Depends on the OCV and DCV in question, but I'd say he's pretty easy to target.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kankuro

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ninjutsu_in_Naruto_%28H-R%29#Puppet_Technique

 

Follwers is one way, but without special GM permission you can't take modifiers on Perks (5ER pg. 78). Your build is very good though.

 

Summon works too but then you are limited by the numbers of Tasks the Summoning will perform and each Phase of combat equals 1 Task (5ER pg. 224).

 

IMHO the way to go is Duplication. I recommend the following Adders:

 

Altered Duplicates (+1) to build the puppet as an Automaton (5ER pgs. 155 and 457-458)

Cannot Recombine (-0)

Costs Endurance (-1/2) to represent the expenditure of Chakra

IIF (-1/4) to represent the puppet, though the puppet cannot be disarmed from the character and the character may hide while controlling it

Physical Manifestation (-1/4) to represent the Chakra Strings as they can be attacked seperately from the puppet

Gestures, Both Hands, Constant (-1) to represent that the puppet cannot be controlled unless the character's handa are free

Concentration, Constant (-1/2) to represent that controlling the puppet requires considerable effort

Limited Power: Limited Range (-1/4)

Limited Power: Character must maintain LoS with the Duplicate or the Duplicate is treated as Blinded (-1/4)

 

I hope this helps.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

20" range imposes a -6 OCV penalty' date=' IIRC. Half move to within 16", and it's -4. Depends on the OCV and DCV in question, but I'd say he's pretty easy to target.[/quote']

 

I am planning to allow the character 120 degree arc of uninhibited Perception (necessary so that he can actually direct the puppet), which will allow him to abort to his fairly substantive defences as necessary (assuming the attacks come from that arc, of course). However, you've got me to reassess the value of that benefit, and I'll probably drop the Concentration limitation from -1/2 to -1/4 as a result. Extending the range remains an option if he still turns out to be too vulnerable -- it's at 20" atm because that's the limit on the character's ability to perform a teleport that switches the puppet and puppeteer.

 

Follwers is one way, but without special GM permission you can't take modifiers on Perks (5ER pg. 78). Your build is very good though.

 

IMHO the way to go is Duplication. I recommend the following Adders:

 

Altered Duplicates (+1) to build the puppet as an Automaton (5ER pgs. 155 and 457-458)

Cannot Recombine (-0)

Costs Endurance (-1/2) to represent the expenditure of Chakra

IIF (-1/4) to represent the puppet, though the puppet cannot be disarmed from the character and the character may hide while controlling it

Physical Manifestation (-1/4) to represent the Chakra Strings as they can be attacked seperately from the puppet

Gestures, Both Hands, Constant (-1) to represent that the puppet cannot be controlled unless the character's handa are free

Concentration, Constant (-1/2) to represent that controlling the puppet requires considerable effort

Limited Power: Limited Range (-1/4)

Limited Power: Character must maintain LoS with the Duplicate or the Duplicate is treated as Blinded (-1/4)

 

I hope this helps.

 

That's the guy.

 

Since I'm the GM, GM permission isn't an issue. I can see the merit of choosing a power over a perk, but given that Duplication costs more to provide the same effect (+1 Altered Duplicate + Disad Points need to be paid for) I'll let the player stick with using the Follower.

 

Costs END will probably be too prohibitive, but I'll bring it up with the player as an option. I've got no idea if Kankuro tires when using his puppets.

 

Don't see the IIF as being particularly valid, especially when using a Follower build, although I can see how you could justify it.

 

From what I can tell, the Chakra strings can't be physically attacked (apparently they got damaged by Chakra-eating bugs once), which is why I've gone with the "Can be supressed" lim.

 

Oops, yes Gestures should be constant. Also, good call on the LOS lim resulting in blind penalties.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

I would just count it as a special effect for ranged attacks/TK.

 

That level of abstraction makes me feel ill. IMHO, YMMV etc...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

Since I'm the GM' date=' GM permission isn't an issue. I can see the merit of choosing a power over a perk, but given that Duplication costs more to provide the same effect (+1 Altered Duplicate + Disad Points need to be paid for) I'll let the player stick with using the Follower.[/quote']

 

Some other issues:

 

- followers are supposed to have minds of their own - they don't do whatever you tell them without question. Presumably, the puppet will do whatever it's told without question, so it's more an extension of the character (ie a duplicate, rather than a follower). This is a key difference between duplicate and follower, and one reason a duplicate costs more.

 

- followers are also supposed to have lives of their own, so they aren't always available. Mind you, there will likely be situations the pupppet can't be available either (a formal dinner reception, for example, seems an unlikely venue for a large puppet).

 

- when followers (or duplicates) die, you don't get another one back for free. The puppet or the PC should have some ability to allow him to "ressurect" the puppet, if risk of permanent point loss is to be avoided. This is especially crucial if it's an automaton, since lacking an ability to bring it back faces the GM with a choice of "I can never take down the puppet" or "I permanently take away his major ability".

 

Don't see the IIF as being particularly valid' date=' especially when using a Follower build, although I can see how you could justify it.[/quote']

 

Using a follower, limitations in general aren't allowed.

 

You're right that Duplication would be more expensive, as would Summon (due to Slavishly Loyal). The end result of a Follower, that the character gets a 275 point combat monster for 15 points, seems pretty inexpensive.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

Some other issues:

 

- followers are supposed to have minds of their own - they don't do whatever you tell them without question. Presumably, the puppet will do whatever it's told without question, so it's more an extension of the character (ie a duplicate, rather than a follower). This is a key difference between duplicate and follower, and one reason a duplicate costs more.

 

- followers are also supposed to have lives of their own, so they aren't always available. Mind you, there will likely be situations the pupppet can't be available either (a formal dinner reception, for example, seems an unlikely venue for a large puppet).

 

- when followers (or duplicates) die, you don't get another one back for free. The puppet or the PC should have some ability to allow him to "ressurect" the puppet, if risk of permanent point loss is to be avoided. This is especially crucial if it's an automaton, since lacking an ability to bring it back faces the GM with a choice of "I can never take down the puppet" or "I permanently take away his major ability".

 

 

 

Using a follower, limitations in general aren't allowed.

 

You're right that Duplication would be more expensive, as would Summon (due to Slavishly Loyal). The end result of a Follower, that the character gets a 275 point combat monster for 15 points, seems pretty inexpensive.

You may have a point. In fact, you probably do -- I think I'll probably shift to Duplicate.

 

On the death and healing issue, we have already established that the puppet only heals through use of the PC's Puppet Crafting skill (and, theoretically, a "healing" power specifically designed to work on inanimate objects).

 

I have taken an unusual step (for me) in this campaign, and established some very generous guidelines for ressurection wrt the PCs. I will be extending this to the puppet, which could be "ressurected" by the PC through the use of his puppet crafting abiliteis.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

That's the guy.

 

Since I'm the GM, GM permission isn't an issue. I can see the merit of choosing a power over a perk, but given that Duplication costs more to provide the same effect (+1 Altered Duplicate + Disad Points need to be paid for) I'll let the player stick with using the Follower.

 

Costs END will probably be too prohibitive, but I'll bring it up with the player as an option. I've got no idea if Kankuro tires when using his puppets.

 

Don't see the IIF as being particularly valid, especially when using a Follower build, although I can see how you could justify it.

 

From what I can tell, the Chakra strings can't be physically attacked (apparently they got damaged by Chakra-eating bugs once), which is why I've gone with the "Can be supressed" lim.

 

Oops, yes Gestures should be constant. Also, good call on the LOS lim resulting in blind penalties.

 

Yah, the Costs END is too much. I would probaly bump it down to Costs END to Activate and add the RSR you had originally. Again, the problem with a Follower is that then you control the puppet, not the player. I didn't *think* that the Chakra Strings could pass through walls and such as they have been used to trip others. I tried to simulate this with the Physical Manifestation but I'm not sure. Your build is still very good and playable though, if you don't mind the puppet being an NPC. [edit] Nevermind this last part as I just read your last response.

 

Other random thoughts. I tried to play a character similar to Kankuro in a Champs game. It was fun but had some frustrations. I used stealth and climbing frequently to minimize how often I was attacked directly but, when I was discovered or easily able to be gotten to it was usually a quick defeat. Making the puppet an automaton was tons of fun and he played alot like a brick. I bought his CON and REC down to zero and took the Healing power to similate the ability to repair him. My concept for the character was that he was a toymaker who created the marionette monstrosity to punish criminals who harm children. He had a bit of a dark edge and later in the game replaced a few of his own body parts with clockwork parts after a severe injury.

 

- when followers (or duplicates) die' date=' you don't get another one back for free. The puppet or the PC should have some ability to allow him to "ressurect" the puppet, if risk of permanent point loss is to be avoided. This is especially crucial if it's an automaton, since lacking an ability to bring it back faces the GM with a choice of "I can never take down the puppet" or "I permanently take away his major ability".[/quote']

 

Unless the Duplicate is a focus, in which case standard rules for replacing a focus would apply...I think. My puppet got smashed to pieces several times and the GM ruled that as a focus, given time and resources, I could replace it. I could also see buying resurrection on the healing power you use to repair it, though we didn't think of this at the time.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

Unless the Duplicate is a focus' date=' in which case standard rules for replacing a focus would apply...I think. My puppet got smashed to pieces several times and the GM ruled that as a focus, given time and resources, I could replace it. I could also see buying resurrection on the healing power you use to repair it, though we didn't think of this at the time.[/quote']

 

Interaction of Focus and Duplication is a good question. The focus that allows you to duplicate should be replaceable, but I'd be inclined to say that, once the focus is invoked to duplicate, that duplicate follows the same rules applicable to all duplicates.

 

Seems like getting something for nothing to me - I save points for the Focus limitation and get to avoid the usual rule that a dead duplicate means loss of character points. I think I'd tack on the Resurrection adder to restore the duplicate and avoid the issue.

 

The Duplicate should have "cannot recombine", since they can't join together. I wonder whether Focus is even appropriate - a follower, summoned creature or duplicate can be removed by its nature, so again that Focus seems like double dipping.

[pinecone]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

I'd lean real strongly towards using Summon...a automaton is wicked tough so you can skate on the overall cost...plus take some limits...."Requires puppet focus to summon, cannot go more than 15" or displells, stuff like that and the cost comes down quickly....

[Doc Samson]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

I'd lean real strongly towards using Summon...a automaton is wicked tough so you can skate on the overall cost...plus take some limits...."Requires puppet focus to summon' date=' cannot go more than 15" or displells, stuff like that and the cost comes down quickly....[/quote']

 

Well, the duplicate doesn't need to be an automaton, I was just trying to model the build after inspirational character, however, I don't think having Mental powers and PRE attacks and such work on a puppet really makes sense. I have the same thoughts on Summon as I do a Follower. From a player standpoint I would much rather control the puppet than have it be an NPC under the GMs control. The character is not giving it orders, he is physically controlling the puppets actions.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

The puppet is definitely being built as an Automaton.

 

DocSamson hits on some very important points with respect to control of the puppet, and Summon isn't really designed to deal with this situation (any kind of free will or limitation on number of tasks is innappropriate for the puppet).

 

Anyhoo, after playing around a bit, my Duplicate version only costs 20 points more, and there are some obvious places elsewhere in the character where we can make the points back while maintaing the player's original concept.

 

The Duplicate should have "cannot recombine", since they can't join together. I wonder whether Focus is even appropriate - a follower, summoned creature or duplicate can be removed by its nature, so again that Focus seems like double dipping.

 

One major difference is that a Duplicate (or Follower) normally has the wherewithall to resist someone just picking him up and carrying him off. The puppet has no such ability.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

One major difference is that a Duplicate (or Follower) normally has the wherewithall to resist someone just picking him up and carrying him off. The puppet has no such ability.

 

To me, this is part of the automoton's lack of free will (the advantage of which is immunity to mental attacks and PRE attacks), not a limitation on the Duplication power itself. Any duplicate which cannot recombine could be KO'd and imprisoned, rendering that duplicate equally inaccessible to the character.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

Fair point.

 

As I mentioned upthread, I was originally against the idea of using Focus with the Follower build, and the same basic reasoning applies to the Duplicate build, so I do see where you're coming from.

[braincraft]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

I can't imagine how all of this could be easier than just using it as a special effect for ranged attacks, especially since it's just a focus without the character to operate it.

[MorpheousXO]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

I can't imagine how all of this could be easier than just using it as a special effect for ranged attacks' date=' especially since it's just a focus without the character to operate it.[/quote']

 

Actually, just what I was going to recomend.

 

Taking it a step further, a multipower might be appropriate for modeling Kankurou. His puppets tend to have multiple abilities, but I've never seen karasu use both his smoke and his blades in the same phase. Though you'd need multiple Multi-powers, one for each puppet (assuming he wants more than one, like kankurou). Also, END cost is very appropriate for modeling kankurou as he controls the puppets with chakra, which is made with stamina, which is END in HERO.

 

Too bad Temari and Gaara won't be joining him though, they have some nice complementary abilities... err... nvm, off topic now.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

I can't imagine how all of this could be easier than just using it as a special effect for ranged attacks' date=' especially since it's just a focus without the character to operate it.[/quote']

 

It's easier than treating it as a special effect if you wish to take into account:

 

- The puppet exists continuously, even if instant attacks are being used.

- It has limited movement that is subject to the same constraints as a normal character.

- It is subject to attacks in much the same way as any other automaton

- It's uses are not necessary limited to narrowly defined attack powers

 

Neither the Focus nor the Physical Manifestation accurately model these things, and adding a host of advantages and limitations to do so seems much more complex. Especially given that, having ironed out a couple of minor bugs, the Duplicate route seems quite straightforward to me.

 

Building the puppet as a special effect is not merely mechanically different, it is different in style and function as as well. It's a valid style, but not one that I like.

[bjvargas]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

I'm pretty sure I know the character this is based on. You might be better off with Duplication' date=' or Summon with the Slavishly Loyal advantage; I would just count it as a special effect for ranged attacks/TK.[/quote']

 

Yup, I was leaning toward Summon myself - and then just throw on whatever limitations to the puppet that you want.

[braincraft]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

It's easier than treating it as a special effect if you wish to take into account:

 

- The puppet exists continuously, even if instant attacks are being used.

- It has limited movement that is subject to the same constraints as a normal character.

- It is subject to attacks in much the same way as any other automaton

- It's uses are not necessary limited to narrowly defined attack powers

 

Neither the Focus nor the Physical Manifestation accurately model these things, and adding a host of advantages and limitations to do so seems much more complex. Especially given that, having ironed out a couple of minor bugs, the Duplicate route seems quite straightforward to me.

 

Building the puppet as a special effect is not merely mechanically different, it is different in style and function as as well. It's a valid style, but not one that I like.

 

1. So does a focus.

2. This is unecessarily complicated to keep track of and doesn't necesssarily add particularly much to play.

3. So's a focus.

4. Then buy Telekinesis or other powers that are not narrowly-defined attack powers.

 

All the other options set forth are options designed for autonomously-acting entities, which a puppet is not. It's just a matter of which direction you are trying to fit the square peg into the round hole from.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

All the other options set forth are options designed for autonomously-acting entities' date=' which a puppet is not. It's just a matter of which direction you are trying to fit the square peg into the round hole from.[/quote']

 

This is a good point. If I read the power's intent correctly, both puppet and puppeteer can act at the same time (albeit with the puppeteer at reduced DCV due to concentration throughout), which implies a structure like Duplication or Summon. However, while Puppeteer can act in the absence of Puppet, the reverse is not true.

 

I don't see this as square peg/round hole, however. The puppet can also be interpreted as an automaton which cannot move or act without its controller's guidance. A robot which relies on verbal command and shuts down if its controller is not there to command it might be a reasonable analogy.

 

One major difference between the puppet and a SFX (other than the movement issue, which you dismiss not as being replicated by your alternate build but as being something that, in your opinion, doesn't merit the effort of building in) is that neither a Focus nor a Physical Manifestation can take damage, but still function. An Automaton can. I believe this is another reason the puppet is perceived by the designer as an independent entity.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

2. This is unecessarily complicated to keep track of and doesn't necesssarily add particularly much to play.

 

Unnecessarily complicated if doing so doesn't suit your style of play. OTOH, just handwaving that sort of thing away would completely destroy my suspension of disbelief.

 

One major difference between the puppet and a SFX (other than the movement issue, which you dismiss not as being replicated by your alternate build but as being something that, in your opinion, doesn't merit the effort of building in) is that neither a Focus nor a Physical Manifestation can take damage, but still function. An Automaton can. I believe this is another reason the puppet is perceived by the designer as an independent entity.

 

Exactly.

 

As I mentioned upthread, I am not remotely comfortable with the level of abstraction and handwaving that Braincraft is advocating -- it simply does not suit my play-style.

[Zorak1003]

Re: Building a Puppeteer

 

A formal dinner reception might be a fine venue for a large puppet- Maybe the skating monkey cancelled.

 

I never considered buying Willie Tyler and Lester in the Hero System, myself, but that's just me.