Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

And you are WAY off base saying that the value of NCM is only as good as the extra points you spend. You totally miss the point of the disad. Again' date=' I point to the Psych Lims. Why give points to someone for role-playing their character the way they intended to role-play it to start with? Because it limits their options. Just like NCM does. As for other powers (ranged powers for bricks) ... well, if practically EVERY character has ranged powers, then sure ... you could take a limitation for that. Of course, if you're strong, you can throw stuff ... heavy stuff ... so the limitation wouldn't be worth as much to a brick (who already has some inherent ranged abilty) as it would to a martial artist in a campaign where EVERYONE has powerful ranged attacks and high movement. Then again ... there would have to be a rationale as to WHY he could never buy them. NCM has a rationale behind it: physically, you're a normal joe. Whats the rationale for "can't buy ranged attacks"? Sounds more like a ... PSYCH LIM: Code vs using ranged attacks. Would you give points to someone for that?[/quote']

 

The CHARACTER decides he will not pick up a ranged weapon and use it. That is a psychological limitation. It can be overcome. Technically, it does not even prevent the character buying a 12d6 Energy Blast. It prevents him from using it to full effect.

 

The PLAYER decides whether TigerMan will pay points for a flame blast. The PLAYER decides that this is not in concept for TigerMan. TigerMan can be very jealous of FlameBoy, and his fireblast. "Look how cool FlameBoy is" moans TigerMan. "He got those cool flame powers, and all I got were these lame Tiger powers." But TigerMan cannot buy a flame blast. Poor TigerMan - clearly he is very limited. So why can't he get disadvantage points for that limitation?

 

I say it's because constraints on character design, whether self-imposed or imposed by the game setting, are not rewarded with character points. But that rationale says that a character doesn't get disadvantage points for ANY character design constraint, including NCM. If a character can get points for the design constraint that stats above a certain level cost double, then a character with some other, equally restrictive, design constraint should get the same number of points. A character with a more restrictive design constraint (eg. "stats above NCM cost triple", or "cannot be purchased" at all, or "can't be obtained through foci either") should receive more points. And a character with a less restrictive, but still restrictive, design constraint should get less points, but still get some points.

[Thaingar]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

So .... you don't get points for things that limit how the player chooses to design his character ... like not being able to buy running because you have the Physical Lim: Can't Walk, for example? That's really what I look on NCM as. Its a sort of Physical Limitation. Could other such limitations (or more restrictive ones) be introduced? Sure, why not? If that's how the GM and players want it, I see no reason that couldn't be done. You can also get rid of Speed (segmented movement is wonky), make Mental Defense a figured characteristic, and anything else you want to change about the system. Provided the GM and the players like it (and, imo, there is a rationale for it). As for Psych Lims vs those other Lims you've been suggesting ... saying "Oh, I choose not to do this ... usually" is worth points but saying "Oh, I am incapable of doing this" isn't? Okay. If that works for your campaign more power to you. As for poor Tiger Man ... if there is some rationale that says he can never have a gun or throwing knives or a sonic roar EB or whatever ... and the lack of a ranged attack is that restrictive in your campaign. Cut him some slack and give him some points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

So .... you don't get points for things that limit how the player chooses to design his character ... like not being able to buy running because you have the Physical Lim: Can't Walk' date=' for example? That's really what I look on NCM as. Its a sort of Physical Limitation.[/quote']

 

What does it prevent the CHARACTER from doing that any other CHARACTER with the exact same mechanical build, but lacking NCM, could do? Nothing. It limits how the PLAYER may spend points in designing the CHARACTER.

 

You can't walk, therefore you have lost one of the defaults that come with the template. You can buy Rnning of you wish, but it doesn't work, because you can't walk. Do you allow a player with Can't Walk to also sell back his 6" of base running and whatever leaping his STR generates?

 

Could other such limitations (or more restrictive ones) be introduced? Sure' date=' why not? If that's how the GM and players want it, I see no reason that couldn't be done.[/quote']

 

But it's not in the game at present. If doubling the cost of a single subset of possible purchases with character points merits a disadvantage, why doesn't doubling the cost of other possible purchases, or disallowing certain possible purchases entirely, also merit a disadvantage?

 

You can also get rid of Speed (segmented movement is wonky)' date=' make Mental Defense a figured characteristic, and anything else you want to change about the system. Provided the GM and the players like it (and, imo, there is a rationale for it). As for Psych Lims vs those other Lims you've been suggesting ... saying "Oh, I choose not to do this ... usually" is worth points but saying "Oh, I am incapable of doing this" isn't? Okay.[/quote']

 

Abhors walking (common, strong) is worth character points as a psychological limitation. Cannot walk is worth character points as a physical limitation.

 

If "Must pay double for stats above NCM limit" is viewed as "I am incapable of doing this" and merits a disadvantage, where is the analogous disadvantage for a character who just doesn't want to buy his stats above NCM, so he has to make an Ego roll before the player can spend XP on stats above the NCM level? All other disadvantages place restrictions on the CHARACTER. Characters do not spend their character points - Peter Parker did not wake up one morning and say "Hey, wouldn't it be great if I got bitten by an irradiated arachnid and picked up a suite of coolspider powers - I'll go out and do that. Say...I can get even more cool powers if I make my Aunt an ivalid and throw her in harm's way, and kill off Uncle Ben as an excuse to be obsessed with responsibility." The CHARACTER doesn't make those choices. The PLAYER does.

 

As for poor Tiger Man ... if there is some rationale that says he can never have a gun or throwing knives or a sonic roar EB or whatever ... and the lack of a ranged attack is that restrictive in your campaign. Cut him some slack and give him some points.

 

The "rationale" is exactly the same as for NCM Man. His player decided that is the way he would be designed, so Tiger-Man lacks ranged attacks and NCM Man lacks superhuman stats. Both players have made a choice about what their character points will be spent on. TigerMan's player gets to spend the points he didn't spend on ranged attacks to buy superhuman stats. NCM Man's player gets to spend the points he didn't spend on superhuman stats to buy ranged attacks. Neither player, or character, has different level of points to work with, until we hand over 20 points for NCM Man choosing to buy ranged attacks instead of superhuman stats. NCM Man doesn't know that he could, instead, have spent his points elsewhere. His player knows that. Players don't get disadvantage points - characters do.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Ultimately, the character who does not spend points on something (be it skills, ranged attacks, stats or whatever else) gets to spend those points somewhere else.

 

If your character is "Dumb as a Sack of Hammers", do you:

 

(a) Sell back 5 INT?

 

( Take a 5 point physical limitation?

 

© Both so you get 10 points instead of 5?

 

Getting a disadvantage for not buying certain abilities, and spending your points on other abilities, essentially rewards the player twice for the same restriction. NCM is the only provision in the game that provides such a double dip. It's an anomaly and it should, in my view, be eliminated. However, the next best choice is not "leave it as is", in my view, but rather "make it consistent". That means creating a disad category, into which NCM falls, which provides rules for the level of disad points received for whatever level of restruction (double costs or absolute prohibition) that a player takes in spending character points, whatever those restrictions may be.

 

This would have to be relative to campaign limits, of course - it's not very restrictive to be limited to no natural superpowers in a 50 + 50 Call of Cthulhu game, but it is in a 350 + 150 Galactic Supers game.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

The Egoist is a very narrow example. Have you ever seen a Brick or a Martial Artist in a traditional Supers campaign take NCM by choice? Only characters who aren't going to be significantly hindered will take NCM - that's the problem with it.

 

 

 

Actually both my wife and best friend designed NCM Martial artists for my supers campaign at different times. It was quite entertaining. Tons of levels in martial arts helped but there were a few "you wake up in the hospital " moments. A super brick is by definition superhumanly strong so obviously that's not a choice. Energy projectors often take NCM in my supers and it is often inconvenient.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Actually both my wife and best friend designed NCM Martial artists for my supers campaign at different times. It was quite entertaining. Tons of levels in martial arts helped but there were a few "you wake up in the hospital " moments. A super brick is by definition superhumanly strong so obviously that's not a choice. Energy projectors often take NCM in my supers and it is often inconvenient.

 

To reiterate: How does having the NCM disadvantage add any greater inconvenience than having the NCM stats themselves. IOW, is the EP inconvenicenced by the 20 point disadvantage over and above the inconvenience of having no stats above the NCM limits?

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

To reiterate: How does having the NCM disadvantage add any greater inconvenience than having the NCM stats themselves. IOW' date=' is the EP inconvenicenced by the 20 point disadvantage [b']over and above[/b] the inconvenience of having no stats above the NCM limits?

 

 

Maybe to reward them for taking the hit of those low stats which is buildwise often pretty stupid. Maybe to firm up a concept and lot and NOT ALLOW stat creep to superhuman later. Conceptually I think its great establishing your character as human physically. In a long term campaign like mine it can make a big difference in the character's later development ( although I don't like much stat jump anyway)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Maybe to reward them for taking the hit of those low stats which is buildwise often pretty stupid.

 

Yet they have all thge same abilities and disabilities as a character with the same stats and no NCM. How do they differ, justifying a 20 point disadvantage? Or is the other olayer stupid for not taking NCM?

 

Maybe to firm up a concept and lot and NOT ALLOW stat creep to superhuman later.

 

So shouldn't TigerMan get a Disadvantage forfirming up his Tiger Powers concept and agreeing to NOT ALLOW powers creep to sway him from that concept later? And I'd note that NCM doesn't prevent higher stats, it just makes them more expensive - unless, of course, you buy of the NCM later.

 

Conceptually I think its great establishing your character as human physically. In a long term campaign like mine it can make a big difference in the character's later development ( although I don't like much stat jump anyway)

 

So why are only those characters whose concept is "physically normal human" rewarded with extra disad points for sticking to their concept? Why not reward mentalists for lacking non-mental powers, or Bricks for sticking to classic Brick abilities?

[Ganesh]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Two thoughts:

 

There's the limitation "real weapon" that can be taken on some equipment. I was in a FH 1-shot at one point where we got a certain number of points to spend on equipment, and someone decided to build a magic sword (well, set of sword-chucks, actually) without the Real Weapon limitation. We wound up using it to chop through a stone door at one point. It took a time-lapsed scene, as any body getting through was unlikely, but as the sword wasn't a real weapon, he didn't have to worry about the edge dulling or the blade breaking or any of the problems a real weapon would have had.

 

NCM can be thought of as the "real human" limitation on your character...the equvalent of having Aspect zero in Nobilis, if you're familiar with the system. Taking it can be interpreted as saying "I'm limiting myself to what human physiology is capable of. The rest of you have fun being alien cyborg mystic whatevers, I'll struggle under the burden of being Merely Human." A lot of this is having a less-effective stat build, which looks to me to be Frequently, Slightly limiting, or Infrequently, Severly limiting when you wake up in the hospital -- as a couple people have pointed out is various ways. This brings me to the second thought...

 

 

This has to do with NCM, not particularly with the NCM limitation.

Characteristics are Efficient.

 

There's really not much argument against this. Dex and Strength are really quite good buys. Good enough that some people argue they should cost more. Other stats are also pretty efficient -- doing the same things that any primary characteristic does by purchasing secondary characteristics and skill levels tends to be a little more expensive (Com may be the exception, and there's no Power or Skill that mimics certain Characteristic effects). Each Characteristic, with its little halo of figured effects, is like a little mini-framework unto itself.

 

NCM limits the efficiency you get out of those characteristic "mini-frameworks." You only get to buy so much, and then you start paying through the nose. Somewhere between Strength 20 and 40, you've payed "what you should" for all that strength and figured characteristics.

 

Limited characteristics, on the other hand, don't give you any figured attributes. Thus it makes more sense for them to not fall under NCM.

 

Not complete sense.

 

But more.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Hugh, You're too good at this but let me try again,

 

I really like Ganesh concept and that;'s how I play it so maybe you're right As written but with a little adjustment making it the character equal of "real weapon" is sound IMO. I also like the earlier "mere mortal" concept and use that also.

 

Maybe tigerman could take a EC for some of his tiger powers but I'd have my animal expert help him out then. I could see giving Mentalia or such an EC also. Course lots think ECs are bad ideas also.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

NCM can be thought of as the "real human" limitation on your character...the equvalent of having Aspect zero in Nobilis' date=' if you're familiar with the system.[/quote']

I'm not, but that's an interesting idea. However, it really has nothing to do with the NCM rules as written. NCM means "stats over 20 cost double" and that's all it means. It has nothing to do with being human (you can be an alien with NCM), or being a "mere normal" (you can be fully superhuman and have NCM), or even being "realistic".

 

The Real Human Disadvantage that you describe would be a valid disad, but it would mean something other than just restrictions on player point-purchase decisions. It would seem to mean that the cinematic aspect of the game (presumably comic-book supers) would not apply to you, and you'd be subject to greater injury than the typical protagonist who never gets permanently injured, or sick. It could be adjudicated by just having the Bleeding/Impairing/Disabling rules apply to you when they don't normally in the genre or particular campaign (which would also mean that the disad wouldn't be valid in a game that already uses these optional rules). In addition (or instead), it might also mean that the Long Term END rules apply to the character when they wouldn't for others.

 

A "real human" should not be able to survive a fall from a 4th story window. But the mechanical rules allow you to apply your full PD (from all sources, including Armor and other powers) and you'd otherwise survive "cinematically". Just one example.

 

Limited characteristics, on the other hand, don't give you any figured attributes.

Yes they do, as long as the limitation limits the figured characteristic(s) as well. Focus would be a good example: you get the primary and the figured stats when you have the focus, you don't get either when you don't. Other examples could be Activation (and Jammed and Burnout), Independent, OIHID, No Conscious Control.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

I really like Ganesh concept and that;'s how I play it so maybe you're right As written but with a little adjustment making it the character equal of "real weapon" is sound IMO. I also like the earlier "mere mortal" concept and use that also.

 

The concept that the character is a "mere mortal" needs to be quantified in game terms. How will this character be disadvantaged in ways that go beyond the drawbacks of NOT spending CP to buy higher stats? Phil Fleischman offers some good examples above - we will apply rules to this character that don't apply to Supers (much like Real Weapon applies rules to your focus that we don't normally apply to devices bought with character points).

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

The concept that the character is a "mere mortal" needs to be quantified in game terms. How will this character be disadvantaged in ways that go beyond the drawbacks of NOT spending CP to buy higher stats? Phil Fleischman offers some good examples above - we will apply rules to this character that don't apply to Supers (much like Real Weapon applies rules to your focus that we don't normally apply to devices bought with character points).

 

 

In the "master list of limitations "

 

Mere Mortal

All The Time, Greatly: 20 Points

A character with this Disadvantage takes double the amount of Body damage from any attack. This represents a character who is a true normal.

 

. One thing I do like about NCM is it reminds the player he's a normal human physically and keeps him in that mindset not the bullet bounce off chest mindset.

 

 

I can't remember where I got this except off this board but this is also interesting.

 

 

20 pts- Normal char max, no defender exploits allowed, ( find weakness extra DC for martial arts etc.)

 

10 pts- Real people, offensive effect, extra dc for Martial arts and damage from skill levels affect PCs and NPCs normally but do not work against objects or automatons.

0 pts - Default Hero setting, offensive effect 1.5 damage/effect real world items/equipment

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

In the "master list of limitations "

 

Mere Mortal

All The Time, Greatly: 20 Points

A character with this Disadvantage takes double the amount of Body damage from any attack. This represents a character who is a true normal.

That sounds more like a Vulnerability to me:

 

Vuln: All Attacks (Very Common), 2x Effect, BODY only - 30 points.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

That sounds more like a Vulnerability to me:

 

Vuln: All Attacks (Very Common), 2x Effect, BODY only - 30 points.

 

 

 

Yeah, probably true