Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

[The Main Man]

This operates similarly and/or as an add-on to Normal Characteristic Maxima.

 

Generally (without getting too granular) NCM caps PC's off at 20, after which they must pay double the character points.

 

Heroic Characteristic Maxima (HCM) would set a further cap (or be the only cap in some games) at 30, after which things are doubled again (or doubled for the first time if there is no NCM).

 

This would be the maximum values before it takes effect.

STR, DEX, CON, BODY, INT, EGO, PRE, COM - 30

PD, ED, REC - 15

SPD - 6.0

END, STUN - 70

 

HCM could also be taken as a 10-point disadvantage for Super-Heroic games, but it probably should not be stacked with NCM unless the PC actually buys CHAR to values that would take both into account.

 

The purpose of HCM is to exist in more powerful heroic-level campaigns that could feasibly have more than a few characters with superhuman CHAR.

[Rapier]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

SOMEONE, and I really thinks it's Surbrook, has this Custom NCM thing that generates a new NCM template for HD.

 

There is plenty of basis for something. Whatever works for you. Heck, give it a try for a little bit and see how it goes. Worst case, you pull it back and redistribute some points.

[The Main Man]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

I came up with it initially for my Rifts HERO game for PC's that are playing Borgs, Crazies, etc.

 

This is a way to reign them in while still allowing them to go beyond; just not insane.

 

I want to see a SPD 6 character (in this campaign) cost a bit.

[JmOz]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

I use a version of HCM, basicaly anything over NCM *1.5 is a superpower

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

SOMEONE, and I really thinks it's Surbrook, has this Custom NCM thing that generates a new NCM template for HD.

 

There is plenty of basis for something. Whatever works for you. Heck, give it a try for a little bit and see how it goes. Worst case, you pull it back and redistribute some points.

It's Killershrike's, and it's on his website.]

 

TB

[The Main Man]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Thanks for the info; what's the site though?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Thanks for the info; what's the site though?

 

Here you go:

 

Alternate NCM Template File Maker for HDv3

[Checkmate]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

This would give 99.9% of all my characters a free 10 point disad. With the exception of my Empyrean Brick, none of my character's would be limited by this at all.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

This would give 99.9% of all my characters a free 10 point disad. With the exception of my Empyrean Brick' date=' none of my character's would be limited by this at all.[/quote']

 

That problem is shared by NCM. If you have 10+ points invested in stats above 20, why would you take the disadvantage? It's counterproductive. If all of your stats are 20 or less, why should you get disadvantage points? Didn't you already save the points you didn't get on stats?

 

Bricks don't get to take a disadvantage like "Mental powers cost double", and Gadgeteers don't get to take "Double cost for non-focused powers". Why should characters who lack high stats get disadvantage points for it?

 

NCM is a rule applied to some games, and not others. To me, at least, it's not a disadvantage available where it would not otherwise apply. Should a character in a Superspies game, using modern rules, be permitted to take a disadvantage for "Takes Knockback instead of Knockdown", or a KA have a limitation or advantage for rolling the stun multiple rather than using the hit location chart?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

That problem is shared by NCM. If you have 10+ points invested in stats above 20, why would you take the disadvantage? It's counterproductive. If all of your stats are 20 or less, why should you get disadvantage points? Didn't you already save the points you didn't get on stats?

 

Bricks don't get to take a disadvantage like "Mental powers cost double", and Gadgeteers don't get to take "Double cost for non-focused powers". Why should characters who lack high stats get disadvantage points for it?

 

NCM is a rule applied to some games, and not others. To me, at least, it's not a disadvantage available where it would not otherwise apply. Should a character in a Superspies game, using modern rules, be permitted to take a disadvantage for "Takes Knockback instead of Knockdown", or a KA have a limitation or advantage for rolling the stun multiple rather than using the hit location chart?

 

You make a good point; as I have used NCM, it applied across the board to all characters, but then no one gets a Disad for it. That way if some PC really really wanted a 25 STR, they could have it since there are no hard caps, but it would cost them.

 

I think the point of the NCM Disad was to give Batman types a break so they might compete with truly paranormal supers, giving them some "free" points instead of taking another Disad that would be a significant handicap. Part of the logic of it is that they are unlikely to use future XP to buy up their CHA very much. The Disad limits the character's potential, not his current status. Is that worth 20 pts? Well, you the GM make the call.

 

I am actually a little surprised that NCM still exists in 5ER; didn't they do away with racial ability packages that messed with the NCM for reasons Hugh already mentioned?

 

_________________________________________________________

"Trumpy, you can do magic things!"

"Its called evil, kid."

from the MST3000 edition of "Pod People"

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

You make a good point; as I have used NCM, it applied across the board to all characters, but then no one gets a Disad for it. That way if some PC really really wanted a 25 STR, they could have it since there are no hard caps, but it would cost them.

 

I think the point of the NCM Disad was to give Batman types a break so they might compete with truly paranormal supers, giving them some "free" points instead of taking another Disad that would be a significant handicap. Part of the logic of it is that they are unlikely to use future XP to buy up their CHA very much. The Disad limits the character's potential, not his current status. Is that worth 20 pts? Well, you the GM make the call.

 

Can Superman have an extra 20 points for "magical powers cost double", " buying off disadvantages costs double" or "double cost for adjustment powers"? If not, why should Batman get 20 points for "characteristics above NCM cost double"?

[Checkmate]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

That problem is shared by NCM. If you have 10+ points invested in stats above 20, why would you take the disadvantage? It's counterproductive. If all of your stats are 20 or less, why should you get disadvantage points? Didn't you already save the points you didn't get on stats?

 

Bricks don't get to take a disadvantage like "Mental powers cost double", and Gadgeteers don't get to take "Double cost for non-focused powers". Why should characters who lack high stats get disadvantage points for it?

 

NCM is a rule applied to some games, and not others. To me, at least, it's not a disadvantage available where it would not otherwise apply. Should a character in a Superspies game, using modern rules, be permitted to take a disadvantage for "Takes Knockback instead of Knockdown", or a KA have a limitation or advantage for rolling the stun multiple rather than using the hit location chart?

I disagree. I do feel that NCM is a limitation in a Superheroic game, IF you apply it to everything on the character. I don't think it's much of a limit if you allow the character to take NCM and then allow them to have a suit of armor that gives them 50 STR. As long as you keep the character below NCM without paying double for going over it regardless of the reason they rise above, it limits.

 

NCM is low enough for a supers game that they will be at a disadvantage in a fight. We've had numerous talks about how much more efficient and cheaper DEX is than comparable skill levels, so being limited to 20, could conceivably be a limitation. SPD is another one that could be VERY low in some games at only 4 .

 

The problem I have with the OP's suggestion is that it's so high, the majority of supers would fall into that range anyway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

NCM is low enough for a supers game that they will be at a disadvantage in a fight. We've had numerous talks about how much more efficient and cheaper DEX is than comparable skill levels' date=' so being limited to 20, could conceivably be a limitation. SPD is another one that could be VERY low in some games at only 4 .[/quote']

 

A Mentalist with a 20 Ego is not facing significant drawbacks. The 4 SPD means you're a bit slow. It also means you spend END slower, so you can afford to, say, Rapid Attack. With a 20 DEX max, it's not like you'll be reliant on your DCV for defense anyway.

 

The bottom line is that characters not reliant on characteristics get a free 20 point disadvantage for not spending points on something they likely weren't going to spend points on anyway. Characters not reliant on something else don't get a free 20 point disad ("Frameworks cost double" isn't a disadvantage) .

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

NCM is already one of the most ridiculously cheesy Disads. 20 points is the equivalent of not being able to walk and in game terms it just means that you can't be more athletic than Michael Jordan while fighting like Tito Ortiz and thinking like Stephen Hawking and looking like Brad Pitt. Perhaps in very high powered games it actually is limiting. Perhaps.

[Rapier]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

It's Killershrike's' date=' and it's on his website.']

 

Ah, my bad. Thankee for the correction!

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Can Superman have an extra 20 points for "magical powers cost double"' date=' " buying off disadvantages costs double" or "double cost for adjustment powers"? If not, why should Batman get 20 points for "characteristics above NCM cost double"?[/quote']

 

Well of course not. But who would you bet on in a match up? Superman of course, because he has CHA through the roof. I am not claiming it is reasonable or tenable in game terms necessarily, it is just a way of leveling the playing field (albeit slightly) for poor little Batman. It is really a GM call to give the talented normal a freebie to help him compete with the ubermenschen, just like the GM has to moderate any other power or Disad to keep balance in his campaign. Maybe not the best way or even a good way, but a published way, which adds the air of legitimacy.

 

___________________________________________________________

"The fiction in her family was that she was never nice

I'd say she was very, I just did not see the price." - S. Vega

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Well of course not. But who would you bet on in a match up? Superman of course' date=' because he has CHA through the roof. I am not claiming it is reasonable or tenable in game terms necessarily, it is just a way of leveling the playing field (albeit slightly) for poor little Batman. It is really a GM call to give the talented normal a freebie to help him compete with the ubermenschen, just like the GM has to moderate any other power or Disad to keep balance in his campaign. Maybe not the best way or even a good way, but a published way, which adds the air of legitimacy.[/quote']

 

Bats. All those points Supes spent on combat abilities, including high stats, Bats spent on Wealth, Contacts, and other resources which he can use to lay his hands on some Kryptonite (or hire a mercenary wizard or three).

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Bats. All those points Supes spent on combat abilities' date=' including high stats, Bats spent on Wealth, Contacts, and other resources which he can use to lay his hands on some Kryptonite (or hire a mercenary wizard or three).[/quote']

 

You are right; Batman spent his points elsewhere. But if a player really wants to play a talented normal who conceptually should not have super stats, the GM (if he allows the character) is going to have to make some allowances to keep that talented normal in the game. The good GM will have plenty of roleplaying opportunities where Batman's contacts and noncombat resources come into play where the Man of Steel has no suitable abilities. That good GM doesn't need NCM. But for the less talented GM, NCM is an easy out. And there are plenty of people who GM not because they are great at it but because there is no game if they don't. I personally don't like NCM, but I can't really fault anyone for using it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

You are right; Batman spent his points elsewhere. But if a player really wants to play a talented normal who conceptually should not have super stats' date=' the GM (if he allows the character) is going to have to make some allowances to keep that talented normal in the game. The good GM will have plenty of roleplaying opportunities where Batman's contacts and noncombat resources come into play where the Man of Steel has no suitable abilities. That good GM doesn't need NCM. But for the less talented GM, NCM is an easy out. And there are plenty of people who GM not because they are great at it but because there is no game if they don't. I personally don't like NCM, but I can't really fault anyone for using it.[/quote']

 

You commented that it may well be a poor balancer. I see it as being virtually no balancer at all. Both Supes and Bats will have 350 points. The only change is that Bats effectively gets to have only 130, instead of 150, points of disadvantages. So Supes has "cannot tell a lie - big blue boy scout" and Bats doesn't. That's not going to go very far in equalizing them.

 

In any case, most "normal human" characters - Batman, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Daredevil - aren't going to come out ahead in a typical Supers game if they take NCM. Most such characters are not designed with a DEX of 23 or less, and boosting even a 26 DEX to double cost easily takes away the value of NCM. I've seen players place this on Mentalists far more often than on "acrobatic normals".

 

This has a lot to do with DEX and Speed levels for standard Supers, as discussed in other threads.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

You commented that it may well be a poor balancer. I see it as being virtually no balancer at all. Both Supes and Bats will have 350 points. The only change is that Bats effectively gets to have only 130' date=' instead of 150, points of disadvantages. So Supes has "cannot tell a lie - big blue boy scout" and Bats doesn't. That's not going to go very far in equalizing them.[/quote']

 

Well I never said NCM was good. But if it means you can avoid a 20 point Physcial limitation "no legs", that is significant isn't it? Disads are pretty relative anyway; is "cannot tell a lie - big blue boy scout" equivalent to "no legs"? And in my experience that last 20 or 30 points of Disads are the hardest to come up with, so NCM could be a nice break, if not an equalizing one.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

NCM is already one of the most ridiculously cheesy Disads. 20 points is the equivalent of not being able to walk and in game terms it just means that you can't be more athletic than Michael Jordan while fighting like Tito Ortiz and thinking like Stephen Hawking and looking like Brad Pitt. Perhaps in very high powered games it actually is limiting. Perhaps.

 

I tried to make this point a few years ago. The way the discussion went, you'd have thought I was posting about wanting to hire Adolf Hitler to manage a restaurant that served up human babies.

[OddHat]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

I tried to make this point a few years ago. The way the discussion went' date=' you'd have thought I was posting about wanting to hire Adolf Hitler to manage a restaurant that served up human babies.[/quote']

 

I so wish I'd thought of that restaurant.

[JmOz]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

I tried to make this point a few years ago. The way the discussion went' date=' you'd have thought I was posting about wanting to hire Adolf Hitler to manage a restaurant that served up human babies.[/quote']

 

IIRC it was not quite that bad, though I find it funny how vehimet people (including myself) can get over things...

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

I tried to make this point a few years ago. The way the discussion went' date=' you'd have thought I was posting about wanting to hire Adolf Hitler to manage a restaurant that served up human babies.[/quote']

 

To me, it's even funnier if you change 'human' to 'kosher'.

 

And besides, Hitler was just going to be the manager. So all he would do is decide which supplier to get the babies from.......

[Checkmate]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

As far as NCM not being limiting:

 

Originally Posted by Nekkidcarpenter

NCM is already one of the most ridiculously cheesy Disads. 20 points is the equivalent of not being able to walk and in game terms it just means that you can't be more athletic than Michael Jordan while fighting like Tito Ortiz and thinking like Stephen Hawking and looking like Brad Pitt. Perhaps in very high powered games it actually is limiting. Perhaps.

 

It also means that you can't be as athletic as Michael Jordan OR fight like Tito Ortiz OR think like Stephen Hawking OR look like Brad Pitt, and still compete.

 

Hugh's argument, assuming that I understand it correctly, is basically that the only people that take it are the people that won't be effected by it anyway as part of concept anyway. By that logic, I assume you feel Psych disads aren't worth anything either? I mean why should someone get points for Vengeful, when that's how they were going to play the character anyway?