HTH combat questions

[Coyotecloudchas]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Abort To Block runs into the same problem Dodge does - it must be declared before the Attack Roll.

 

Roll With A Punch has the advantage of being the only maneuver that may be declared After the Attack Roll (but Before Damage). Sure you take 1/2 Damage, but you don't Abort your Phase if the attacker missed.

 

Correct Ghost-Angel, block and dodge only give a stalemate at best when you're the same SPD as your opponent. Roll for Punch is a difficult maneuver to pull off though, and only mitigates the damage somewhat so may not save you. This is a rare situation we're talking about when having a higher DEX and SPD is a DISADVANTAGE. It doesn't happen often, but occurs with the following conditions:

 

1) Your opponent is likely to take you out in one or two hits

2) You cannot take a single action that will deter your opponent from taking a swing at you (i.e. hitting him first only puts you at a disadvantage).

3) You are the same SPD as your opponent

4) You have a higher DEX than your opponent

5) Your opponent mindlessly attacks and does not save his actions

6) Your DCV with Dodge is significantly higher than your opponents OCV

 

If these conditions are all true, then you are at an advantage by slowing your SPD so your actions don't coincide with your opponent's phases. That way you can use a Dodge that will cover more than one of his attacks. By exploiting your only advantage, DCV, you use your only chance at victory.

[tancred]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Maybe I missed it earlier in the thread, but I think there's one point overlooked:

 

If both characters are the same SPD, and the defender (successfully) Blocks, he AUTOMATICALLY goes before the attacker on their next Phase (5ER, page 383).

 

Thus, using a Block at least creates the possibility of breaking the stalemate.

[ghost-angel]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Correct Ghost-Angel, block and dodge only give a stalemate at best when you're the same SPD as your opponent. Roll for Punch is a difficult maneuver to pull off though, and only mitigates the damage somewhat so may not save you. This is a rare situation we're talking about when having a higher DEX and SPD is a DISADVANTAGE. It doesn't happen often, but occurs with the following conditions:

 

1) Your opponent is likely to take you out in one or two hits

2) You cannot take a single action that will deter your opponent from taking a swing at you (i.e. hitting him first only puts you at a disadvantage).

3) You are the same SPD as your opponent

4) You have a higher DEX than your opponent

5) Your opponent mindlessly attacks and does not save his actions

6) Your DCV with Dodge is significantly higher than your opponents OCV

 

If these conditions are all true, then you are at an advantage by slowing your SPD so your actions don't coincide with your opponent's phases. That way you can use a Dodge that will cover more than one of his attacks. By exploiting your only advantage, DCV, you use your only chance at victory.

 

I believe you are completely wrong.

 

If you can't win at the same Speed you are either

-Fighting Incorrectly

-Shouldn't be in the fight in the first place

 

While slowing down is certainly a valid tactic, if it is the only way to win then there is a balance problem most likely created by the GM.

 

If the GM has created that level of imbalance rethink the game.

[ghost-angel]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Here's why I don't believe you are right:

 

I don't think you gave us the whole situation. I don't have either characters capabilities. I don't have how many people were in the fight. I don't have the reason the fight was there.

 

If your Hero fights consist completely of "I try to hit him, he tries to hit me" I believe you are caught into the D&D trap and aren't using the system to it's fullest.

 

Pushing.

Full Moves.

Other Combatants.

Maneuvers.

Optional Maneuvers.

Martial Maneuvers.

Skill Levels.

Powers.

 

All of these are things used to affect a battle - unless almost NONE of them exist I suggest another system, Hero probably isn't what you want.

[caris]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

I believe you are completely wrong.

 

If you can't win at the same Speed you are either

-Fighting Incorrectly

-Shouldn't be in the fight in the first place

 

While slowing down is certainly a valid tactic, if it is the only way to win then there is a balance problem most likely created by the GM.

 

If the GM has created that level of imbalance rethink the game.

 

Ghost-Angel, he did give us enough. The PC could not generate enough Damage to get a decisive hit (i.e. Con Stun or Knock Out) the opponent, and the opponent could generate enough Damage to take out the PC with one hit. Apparently, the PC also could not generate a high enough DCV without Dodging to feel reasonably confident of avoiding a blow.

 

There was an impalance, it was in the capacity of the two fighting to damage each other without a coresponding imbalance in their ability to hit each other. This imbalance put the PC at a severe disadvantage, because the Player felt the character could only resort to Defensive actions.

 

The player had the PC resort to a counter-intuitive strategy, because in this specific situation it played to the weakness of the opponent. The opponent was not going to hold its action to force the PC to use his actions to defend.

 

You are correct this was created by the GM, but I think that CoyoteCloudChas might still be fairly new to running Hero. I know that experienced GMs that have made the same kind of mistakes. It happens from time to time for everyone. Particularly, when players do something like split up and a single PC runs into the Big Bad that was meant to fight the whole group of PCs.

[ghost-angel]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Then condition 2: The player shouldn't be in the fight. Run Away.

[Coyotecloudchas]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Then condition 2: The player shouldn't be in the fight. Run Away.

 

As opposed to changing his SPD and winning the fight? Which is what he did.

[Coyotecloudchas]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Ghost-Angel, he did give us enough. The PC could not generate enough Damage to get a decisive hit (i.e. Con Stun or Knock Out) the opponent, and the opponent could generate enough Damage to take out the PC with one hit. Apparently, the PC also could not generate a high enough DCV without Dodging to feel reasonably confident of avoiding a blow.

 

There was an impalance, it was in the capacity of the two fighting to damage each other without a coresponding imbalance in their ability to hit each other. This imbalance put the PC at a severe disadvantage, because the Player felt the character could only resort to Defensive actions.

 

The player had the PC resort to a counter-intuitive strategy, because in this specific situation it played to the weakness of the opponent. The opponent was not going to hold its action to force the PC to use his actions to defend.

 

You are correct this was created by the GM, but I think that CoyoteCloudChas might still be fairly new to running Hero. I know that experienced GMs that have made the same kind of mistakes. It happens from time to time for everyone. Particularly, when players do something like split up and a single PC runs into the Big Bad that was meant to fight the whole group of PCs.

 

Actually been playing Hero for 20 years Otherwise however, you correctly understand the situation of my inadvertantly creating the imbalance. As I mentioned earlier, in this rare case the whole situation would make sense if the automaton foe simply holds their action to wait for the character to stop dodging. In that case, then its clearly a mismatch and the character would have no choice but to run away when he get the chance with his higher DEX.

[ghost-angel]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

As opposed to changing his SPD and winning the fight? Which is what he did.

 

My Point Being...

 

There's more than one way out of that situation.

 

While changing Speed is a valid, and in this case effective, tactic.

 

It Is Not The Only Tactic Available. Which Is What I'm Trying To Get Across To You.

[ghost-angel]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

Ghost-Angel' date=' he did give us enough. The PC could not generate enough Damage to get a decisive hit (i.e. Con Stun or Knock Out) the opponent, and the opponent could generate enough Damage to take out the PC with one hit. [/quote']

 

No - I don't believe so.

 

There's more to combat that damage.

 

Did the character have any form of Entangle, Aid, Suppress, Mental Illusions, Images, Invisibility, Dispel, Succor, or alternate Movement available to them?

 

All of those involve tactics beyond attempting to Attack/Damage.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

I still the whole missed the whole "slower = better." Should my next SPDster have a SPD 2 then? Will that make him more efficient? The only time slowing down is good is when you need to hold your breath or summat. Otherwise, why?

[ghost-angel]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

I still the whole missed the whole "slower = better." Should my next SPDster have a SPD 2 then? Will that make him more efficient? The only time slowing down is good is when you need to hold your breath or summat. Otherwise' date=' why?[/quote']

 

Apparently in a very specific set of circumstances where you are

1) Severely Out Matched

2) Have No Options Beyond "I hit him with my sword"

3) Can't Run Away.

 

Basically the GM has put you into a situation where you are so horked the only viable tactic is to metagame the Speed Chart.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

No, really... how does this even work? If I go slower, that gives me less chances to make with swingy-swingy. It doesn't affect how quickly I get swung AT. It doesn't affect anything other than when I can bind my movement to another creature and/or object, or when I need to hold my breath.

 

So really. Explain. Using SMALL WORDS (you know me...) how this demonstrates a tangible NET BENEFIT.

[ghost-angel]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

No' date=' really... how does this even work? If [b']I[/b] go slower, that gives me less chances to make with swingy-swingy. It doesn't affect how quickly I get swung AT. It doesn't affect anything other than when I can bind my movement to another creature and/or object, or when I need to hold my breath.

 

So really. Explain. Using SMALL WORDS (you know me...) how this demonstrates a tangible NET BENEFIT.

 

Thing DEX 14 SPD 4 = Phases 3 6 9 12

Player DEX 15 SPD 3 = Phases 4 8 12

 

The idea is

Phase 12 Player Announces he will now be SPD 3 & Dodges Thing Attacks & Misses

Phase 3 Thing Attacks; Player is still Dodging as this Maneuver lasts until the Players next phase.

Phase 4 Player Dodges

Phase 6 Thing Attacks & Misses

Phase 8 Player Attacks (and maybe hits)

Phase 9 Thing Attacks, Player Aborts Phase 12 to Dodge, & Misses

Phase 12 Thing Attacks & Misses as Player has Aborted this to continue Dodging.

Phase 3 Thing Attacks & Misses

Phase 4 Player Dodges

Phase 6 Thing Attacks & Misses

Phase 8 Player Attacks (and maybe hits)

Phase 9 Thing Attacks, Player Aborts Phase 12 to Dodge, & Misses

Phase 12 Thing Attacks & Misses as Player has Aborted this to continue Dodging.

....ad nauseum....

 

Now here's some severe issues: The Dodge is stating to put a significant difference in the CVs of the two combatants. Seeing as Dodge is +3 that least us to believe that their CVs are equal (meaning Thing has 11- chance to hit normally) or the Players CV is just a bit higher. Obviously the different CVs assumes one or both has Combat Skill Levels to put into OCV (Thing) or DCV (Player). Otherwise DEX14 and 15 have the same CV.

 

Given similar CVs, and that Thing can paste Player in a single hit, two if it rolls Damage poorly, it can be assumed that Player should not be in the fight at all.

 

It also assumes that both Player and Thing only have large sharp sticks to hit each other with and Player has no abilities to draw on.

 

So you have to ask yourself how a blatantly non-combative Character ended up in a one-on-one with a Big Bad Thing he had no hopes of battling, much less defeating?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

It never occurred to anyone to hold a half-phase action, wait for slappy the magical dodging guy to have his guard down a split second and splatter him? Not only do we assume the player had no other weapons, Thing was clearly fantastically stupid as well.

 

Presence Attack: "HOLD STILL!" Enough dice might get him to stutter enough to get in one good hit. Sure, it works on paper, but one Natch later and that PC is grape jelly.

[eternal_sage]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

the idea that the automaton is...well an automaton, means that he just presses the attack. second, i congratulate the gentleman/lady who came up with a BRILLIANT strategy to take the advantage away from a foe that completely outclassed him. that is not fighting stupidly, it is fighting intelligently and strategicly.

 

did David hual tail away from Goliath? no, he did something remarkably similar. in fact this strategy has played out in fiction and history before. do you have the guts to try it? some yes, some no, but it is, in no way, a "wrong way to fight". letting your opponent over manuever is a classic feint tactic which will leave him open, at which time you slam the hammer down. also a classic tactic of several martial arts (including traditional Karate).

 

in fact, i was under the assumption there was no right or wrong way to do pretty much anything in HERO, but especially fight. maybe YOU should go play DnD, with your mentality of only 2 choices: a) we bash it cause we're better, or we run.

 

it takes a clever man to use his opponent against him, instead of mindlessly looking to his SPD or DEX advantages to bring him through. were their other ways to perform this strategy? yes, such as block or roll-with-punch, but neither were satifactory. block runs off of OCV, which he was obviously short on because of his adoption of this tactic. roll-with-punch does not negate the damage, which is obviously a problem, because otherwise he would not need this tactic.

 

was this GM oversight or some such? sure! but instead of resulting in a TPK (like a hasted iron golem against low level PCs in DnD) the PCs were able to scrape out a win using time tested tactics and intelligent use of the resources at their disposal. hell, i give them a medal and a couple of extra XP.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

I'm not saying it's wrong; I was saying I couldn't envision a scenario in which it was useful. Clearly, I was mistaken. While GA has a point, i.e., it can be seen as a 'metagame' strategy, it certainly is a valid tactic. Frankly, I'm just shocked it worked. I would have used my four SPD to run, or I think more what GA was saying, there were other options rather than simply going into HTH combat with it.

 

However, the strategy, now that I see it, appears to be entirely valid. Huh. The knee jerk reaction is to say "No, you can't do that" but only because of the unconventional nature of it.

[braincraft]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

The problem is that you can't abort to a defense if you've already acted in a given phase, and he only had phases that overlapped his opponent's. He couldn't attack and then abort when it was his opponent's turn to attack, because then he would have used his action for the phase and been unable to dodge.

 

Due to the peculiarities of the SPD chart and the way defensive actions work, it was possible for a SPD 3 character to make two of his phases count twice (by Dodging for the duration of two of his opponent's phases) and using his third phase to attack, while it was impossible to do this with a SPD 4 character due to the way held phases and abort phases interact.

[ghost-angel]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

My only contention was the original assertion that this was somehow the only tactic.

 

While it is A tactic, and a clever if metagamey one, I can't help but think there were overlooked strategies. But I don't have the character sheet in front of me to determine if the player did indeed have NO other options.

 

If that's the case the Character is built as a non-combatant and had no business there but to either a) lose on purpose or run like heck.

 

Skills Levels, Martial Maneuvers and clever abilities can all turn the tide of a fight. None of those were apparently present. There is something rotten in the state of Denmark for this scenario.

[eternal_sage]

Re: HTH combat questions

 

this is true! (and sorry for the vehemence above, just got my knickers in abit of a twist, although i do stand by any non-ranting bits that can be discerned from it)

 

my impression (and like you, i do not have sheets to examine) leads me to believe this may have been a wizard type, and that they may have been "out of spells" in some way or another. it also seems that this encounter was not intended for such a depleted parted, but rather a "first thing in the morning" encounter. but we all know (or at least i do) how no plan escapes contact with the players intact. i don't know how many times i've personally (in DnD) had the players decide to push on through at least one more room or some such, only to find them dropping like flies because they couldn't handle another battle of X level that day.

 

luckily, as i've moved away from DnDisms over the years, (even in their system) i've had it happen less (haven't killed a player in two years!) but with a certain concept of play, certain problems are sure to emerge, and only careful planning and luck can ever truly negate those possibilities. and never underestimate the Stupid Choice that players will sometimes make that leads to disasster.

 

for instance, instead of going and getting the town militia, the PCs decided to storm the base of the bandit king by themselves. this was a silly idea, as their strength and numbers had caused the dire need that brought them here to begin with, and they knew it. and they'd been given direct orders to "find the base, and report back to me" by the guard captian. instead they find themselves hip deep in alittle over 250 NPCs who want to rearrange their internal organs. luckily the NPC were 8 levels lower (was intended to be a Heroes of Battle set up) so they easily cleaned their clocks, until the generals (who were the ones they were actually supposed to fight) showed up and killed them in their greatly depleted state. it was a massacre. but it happened not because i did something wrong, but the players made a Stupid Choice .

 

so i don't think its fair to shout "burn the heretic" just yet, when we don't know (and probably never will) the whole story.