Multipower in 5th ed.

[Sundansyr]

Here I seem to be having some... confusion.

 

Building a 500pt superhero I chose multiform for him.

By 4th edition rules this was a very difficult power to make work with a good many multiple forms due to the limits on subform points and prime form.

 

Under 5th ed, I was able to create 16x 500pt(?!!) multiforms for considerably less than 100 active points.

 

Are *ALL* of these subforms capable of being 500 points, or is there some sort of limitation on them?

The example in the book was far from clear, listing the sampled multiforms in a progressively decending order of point costs.

 

Since doubling the number of available subforms only costs 5 points, this quickly gets to be amazingly overpowered as, with 16 available forms for this hero I was, essentially, able to create an entire toolbox of varied superheroes... essentially I was able to use almost every power in the book among them all, which I view as a little destabalizing for the poor GM as I could (haven't used him yet) pull something for pretty much anything the GM could throw at me.

 

Even a 500 point MOUSE!

[JmOz]

Re: Multipower in 5th ed.

 

Well the only real balancing factors are

 

1) The GM, it is a stopsign power for a reason, watch it carefully or else...

 

2) YOu need an appropriate amount of disads (Total cost of form minus your base points=disads needed)

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Multipower in 5th ed.

 

Also, 16x500 point Multiforms is actually 120 Active Points. Not many campaigns would allow a 120 Active Point power.

[Sundansyr]

Re: Multipower in 5th ed.

 

With limitations on the power it came out to 48pts real cost, but takes 2 full phases to make a transition. Using 4th edition rules I was able to do the same thing for only 35 points for 9 forms between 200-500 points (ultra slots within multipower just for the sake of keeping the disadvantages for all forms within a set group of special effects). Outside the MP the price was not a whole loght higher, but took a full page just to list the limitations on each form

 

 

Each form has is 300 + 200 with a common theme across the lot (essentially 150 points of the disads are always the same).

 

This is true, I will have to see what the GM says about the whole power... but even if he limits it to 300 point multis it's possible to create a scary group of versatile forms. Unfortunately in a 500 point campaign 300 point chars would get stomped quickly and often.

 

Since each multiform costs exactly the same, why would a player be motivated to create 'lesser' powered forms as the rulebook example portrayed? Under 4th edition it was very difficult to create so many 'equally strong' forms and stay below the 'primary form's character points'.

 

This might require some in-house tweaking. What in-house rules do other GM's use to keep Multiform in check?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower in 5th ed.

 

I've used Multiform to create several forms built on less points than the most expensive form. It's down to concept - sure I could heap on all kinds of stuff, but it wouldn't fit.

 

And I'm not sure you're completely familiar with the rules... a 500pt Multiform (built on 300+200) = 100 Active Points. You have to pay for the Limitations on the alternate form too.

 

It is an easily abused power, but a versatile one with a lot of good potential. Just play nice and don't munchkin - just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

 

My personal in house check is simple: just don't abuse it, like any other Power.

[JmOz]

Re: Multipower in 5th ed.

 

Ahh come on ghost-angel, at times it is fun to be a member of the lollipop guild

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Multipower in 5th ed.

 

What in-house rules do other GM's use to keep Multiform in check?

Character conception, and choosing not to play with players who are more interested in "gaming the system" than in making interesting characters or creating interesting adventures.

 

But I'm not sure you could really call those house rules.

[Sundansyr]

Re: Multipower in 5th ed.

 

And I'm not sure you're completely familiar with the rules... a 500pt Multiform (built on 300+200) = 100 Active Points. You have to pay for the Limitations on the alternate form too.

 

Hmm, I'm not sure where the 100 active points come in.

A 500 point multiform, based on whatever base point & disad spred chosen, should still cost 120 active points, no?

 

Or am I only 'paying' for the 300 point base, and the points from disads are 'free' (as in the base form pays no active points?).

 

I created the power using Hero Designer 3, and it calced the active point cost to 120 points.

 

Also... Multiforms cost end only during the change process, correct?

 

In the rulebook it says that if a multiform were to suffer a major transformation or major lasting injury it would be essentially 'trapped' in that form until the condition was removed? Alternately it stated that some transforms (blindness, cosmetic changes, et al) transferred across all forms in the multiform, so I find myself a tad confused.

 

Some of the examples in the book are far from clear.

 

In the concept I created the multiform itself has a set list of limitations, which all of the subforms within also have. Within each particular form there are disadvantages, 150 points of which are pretty much identical and 50 points of varied disadvantages to make each form a little more unique.

 

Though this still begs to question: Why create a sub-500 point form within the multipower if I still pay 5 points for the extra form(s) regardless of point spread... that 500 point mouse is just freakish (but not to be used, only an experiment).

[Doc Samson]

Re: Multipower in 5th ed.

 

This might require some in-house tweaking. What in-house rules do other GM's use to keep Multiform in check?

Also' date=' 16x500 point Multiforms is actually 120 Active Points. Not many campaigns would allow a 120 Active Point power.[/quote']

 

This is the big one for us. We are currently playing a 450 pt. campaign with an AP limit of 75 (remember Limitations only affect the Real Cost, not the Active Points of a power.) A 75 pt. Multiform is limited to 375 pt. forms. The versatility of having multiple forms is balanced in that each will be weaker than the other characters. A side effect of our AP cap is that players with multiple Multiforms will usually place them in a Multipower so each form can be at 375 pts. For a 500 pt. campaign, I would probably limit the APs of powers to 80 or 85.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower in 5th ed.

 

Hmm, I'm not sure where the 100 active points come in.

A 500 point multiform, based on whatever base point & disad spred chosen, should still cost 120 active points, no?

 

Or am I only 'paying' for the 300 point base, and the points from disads are 'free' (as in the base form pays no active points?).

 

I created the power using Hero Designer 3, and it calced the active point cost to 120 points.

 

Also... Multiforms cost end only during the change process, correct?

 

In the rulebook it says that if a multiform were to suffer a major transformation or major lasting injury it would be essentially 'trapped' in that form until the condition was removed? Alternately it stated that some transforms (blindness, cosmetic changes, et al) transferred across all forms in the multiform, so I find myself a tad confused.

 

Some of the examples in the book are far from clear.

 

In the concept I created the multiform itself has a set list of limitations, which all of the subforms within also have. Within each particular form there are disadvantages, 150 points of which are pretty much identical and 50 points of varied disadvantages to make each form a little more unique.

 

It's 100 Active Points for just one form, I wasn't adding in additional forms.

You pay for all the Character Points in the alternate forms (Base and Disadvantage Points).

 

Multiform does not cost Endurance to use by default.

 

Though this still begs to question: Why create a sub-500 point form within the multipower if I still pay 5 points for the extra form(s) regardless of point spread... that 500 point mouse is just freakish (but not to be used' date=' only an experiment).[/quote']

 

Seriously?

 

Right - you pay for the largest Alternate Form, let's say a 200 point Bear, and you want a 150 points wold and a 120 point raven.

 

You could

a) Pay for each for seperately (40 points/30 points/24 points respectively for a total of 94 points).

Pay for the Number Of Forms Adder (40 points for the 200 pt form +10 points for x4 Number Of Forms for 50 points). You may "waste" a Form and "waste" points ... but you're In Concept.

 

It's a roleplaying thing, if you don't get it, you don't get it. Oh well.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multipower in 5th ed.

 

What in-house rules do other GM's use to keep Multiform in check?

I don't use it vary often, but here's a few ideas:

 

Under RAW, there could be:

SingleMan - one 500-point guy

DualMan - Base form 400-points (plus the 100-point MultiForm power), plus additional 500-point form

Tripleman - Base form 395-points (plus 105 for MultiForm), 500-point second form, 500-point third form

QuintupleMan - Base form 390 points (not including the MF), 500-point form A, 500-point form B, 500-point form C, 500-point form D.

 

It seems that having more forms doesn't really cost you anything at all, since all the forms can have the full points, and only the base form pays. So therefore, I suggest the following:

 

Have each form pay for the Multiform, that way you have a trade off of power for flexibility (multiple forms), just like everything else in HERO. You can be...

 

one 500-point form

two 400-point forms

three 395-point forms

five 390-point forms

nine 385-point forms

etc.

 

Though that still seems a bit off because the cost for that second form is so high compared to all the subsequent ones. One idea I've toyed with a bit is to change the cost structure to 1/10 of the points for the first alternate form, and +1/2 Advantage for each doubling of the number of forms. Hence:

 

One 500-point form

two 450-point forms

three 425-point forms

five 400-point forms

nine 375-point forms

etc.

 

...or something like that. The "1/10 points of first alt form" and "+1/2 per doubling" can be adjusted to taste. I'm not sure what the best (=most balanced) numbers are.

 

And one other idea, retaining the +5 points per doubling rule: Say that no Limitations can be applied to the +5 doublers. So even if your MultiForm has -1.5 in limitations (reducing the cost of the first alt form from 100 to 40), the next form still costs 5, and the next two 5 more, etc., so that the full 16 forms costs 40+20 = 60 points. If that helps.

 

Some of the examples in the book are far from clear.

You got that right! You might take a look at The Ultimate MetaMorph. Though I'm not promising that it will help.

 

Seriously?

 

Right - you pay for the largest Alternate Form, let's say a 200 point Bear, and you want a 150 points wold and a 120 point raven.

I think what he means is, why buy the 150-point wolf and the 120-point raven, when a 200-point "highly skilled wolf" and a 200-point "super-raven" cost the same points?

 

I think there's a better solution somewhere between the 4th ed and 5th ed versions of this power.