END-using powers & perceptable F/X

[PhaseKitty]

So I'm perusing, found this thread.

 

Leads me to another Q I've had long time; one not really fitting in that thread. From back in 4th ed., and same in 5th, the Rules say a Power that starts off costing END (even if dropped to 0 END) has to be perceivable by three Sense Groups, unless the Rules for that specific Power say otherwise. Thing is, no Power says otherwise.

 

Odd, cause some Powers really oughta. Darkness eg is silly if it's perceivable by three SG's when it's Dark to one. So like my Sphere Of Inky Night blocks Sight---and also buzzes and stinks. Silly, really.

 

Worst tho' is Images. I buy one SG, and get two others for free? Or all Images to Sight (w/o IPE) buzz/stink/tickle/cause interference/give psychics headaches (chose two)? Silly IMNEHO.

 

So my Q is: does anyone House Rule certain END-using Powers don't do the 3-SG thing?

 

And does anyone else think it's really weird the Rules say "unless exceptioned" and then have no exceptions?

 

[ghost-angel]

Re: END-using powers & perceptable F/X

 

Darkness must be perceivable - the default is you can see something impairing your vision (especially important for those who are outside the field).

 

For example I have a character with a Darkness: Sight Group whose Darkness Field is a big ball of very very bright light. You can very much see that ball of light, but you can't see anything inside it or if you're in it, anything outside it.

 

Invisibility BTW, is one of the powers that costs END and may not be perceivable - especially if you buy it for multiple sense groups. This is the exception.

[PhaseKitty]

Re: END-using powers & perceptable F/X

 

Darkness must be perceivable - the default is you can see something impairing your vision (especially important for those who are outside the field).

 

For example I have a character with a Darkness: Sight Group whose Darkness Field is a big ball of very very bright light. You can very much see that ball of light, but you can't see anything inside it or if you're in it, anything outside it.

So what are the other two SG's it can be perceived with, and why?

 

Invisibility BTW' date=' is one of the powers that costs END and may not be perceivable - especially if you buy it for multiple sense groups. This is the exception.[/quote']

Where's it say that? :confused: Page # and all that. Oh and in 5th ed. not refred beans please cause I don't got that. I don't find it in 5th ed. cause I just reread the whole bit under "Invisibility". Makes sense yeah but it's not written down AFAIK.

 

Oh, and you got any house-rules related to the subject?

 

[ghost-angel]

Re: END-using powers & perceptable F/X

 

1) The other two are sound and smell. It's never come up, but the power is called Spark Of The Sun, there's a slight humm and the scent of ionized air.

 

2) I don't think it explicitly says it in 5E because it very much falls under Common Sense. 5ER has a much longer explanation of Invisibility.

 

3) House Rules? No, never needed them for this.

 

4) Oh, I didn't touch on Images, what you're buying with Images is the ability to purposely alter a Sense Group or Sense.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: END-using powers & perceptable F/X

 

Actually, this is a good argument for IPE on a Darkness field, especially if you don't want it to generate said additional effects to the sense groups. Insofar as a Darkness field, you can also make it physically oppressive, tingly, gelatinous, or give it a foul taste (as though you've gotten it in your mouth). Or.

 

Slap on some IPE to hide it and just make a plain old Darkness field.

[Lucius]

Re: END-using powers & perceptable F/X

 

So I'm perusing' date=' found this thread.

 

Leads me to another Q I've had long time; one not really fitting in that thread. From back in 4th ed., and same in 5th, the Rules say a Power that starts off costing END (even if dropped to 0 END) has to be perceivable by three Sense Groups, unless the Rules for that specific Power say otherwise. Thing is, no Power says otherwise.

 

Odd, cause some Powers really oughta. Darkness eg is silly if it's perceivable by three SG's when it's Dark to one. So like my Sphere Of Inky Night blocks Sight---and also buzzes and stinks. Silly, really.

 

Well, you can file at least one of the senses under "Detects as a Mutant Power" or "Detects as Magic" or whatever.

 

Also, it doesn't have to be perceptible the whole time. Maybe it makes some kind of sound as it comes into effect and is silent thereafter.

 

Worst tho' is Images. I buy one SG' date=' and get two others for free? Or all Images to Sight (w/o IPE) buzz/stink/tickle/cause interference/give psychics headaches (chose two)? Silly IMNEHO.[/quote']

 

It is at least perceptible to touch. You touch the image, you can tell it's not really there - a clue that it's an image.

 

Further, you don't get "two sense groups free." Even if it makes a buzz, that doesn't mean you can modify the buzzing to create some kind of sonic illusion.

 

So my Q is: does anyone House Rule certain END-using Powers don't do the 3-SG thing?

 

And does anyone else think it's really weird the Rules say "unless exceptioned" and then have no exceptions?

 

 

 

Given that the man who writes the rules is a lawyer - not, it doesn't strike me as weird.

 

Oh, and Invisibility IS visible to sight - you have a "fringe effect" unless you buy it off with an advantage (basically, a kind of "Invisible Power Effect.")

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The Palindromedary wants Extra Limbs and Stretching with Invisible Power Effect

[ghost-angel]

Re: END-using powers & perceptable F/X

 

I think the most important thing to remember is that the Percievability of the Power is in place to define the Source Of The Power, not always just the Power itself.

 

Gestures/Incantation are why it can be perceived by Touch and Sound for instance, and the Power itself (whatever it is) could be Sight. For example.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: END-using powers & perceptable F/X

 

I think the most important thing to remember is that the Percievability of the Power is in place to define the Source Of The Power, not always just the Power itself.

 

Gestures/Incantation are why it can be perceived by Touch and Sound for instance, and the Power itself (whatever it is) could be Sight. For example.

 

I think that's the rub; there seems to be a misunderstanding as to where/how the 3 SG rule operates; it is the POWER that's visible with three senses, or is it origination?

[McCoy]

Re: END-using powers & perceptable F/X

 

And does anyone else think it's really weird the Rules say "unless exceptioned" and then have no exceptions?

 

Density Increase is another exception. Page 147 of 5ER, under "invisible Power Effects."

[ghost-angel]

Re: END-using powers & perceptable F/X

 

I think that's the rub; there seems to be a misunderstanding as to where/how the 3 SG rule operates; it is the POWER that's visible with three senses' date=' or is it origination?[/quote']

 

5ER doesn't differentiate between Power and Origin Of Power. In fact it sates you need to be able to locate the Origin of the Power clearly - which to me says "Three Sense Group Rule" right there, part of the perception is the Origin doing something obvious to a Sensory Group.

 

The gun makes the bang, the bullet makes the hole.

[PhaseKitty]

Re: END-using powers & perceptable F/X

 

Density Increase is another exception. Page 147 of 5ER' date=' under "invisible Power Effects."[/quote']

 

Do you know what page that is in FRED?

 

Or where the thread with page conversions is? I looked and can't find it.

 

[PhaseKitty]

Re: END-using powers & perceptable F/X

 

5ER doesn't differentiate between Power and Origin Of Power. In fact it sates you need to be able to locate the Origin of the Power clearly - which to me says "Three Sense Group Rule" right there, part of the perception is the Origin doing something obvious to a Sensory Group.

 

The gun makes the bang, the bullet makes the hole.

 

Oh, another cheap dodge by Mr. Long. Don't fix the rule, patch it over.

 

[ghost-angel]

Re: END-using powers & perceptable F/X

 

I'm.... not sure that's a fair accusation.

 

I don't think there's a "rule" to fix. Steve is stating more clearly what should have been obvious all along.

 

but I'm constantly surprised at peoples need to over-rigidly interpret the rules.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: END-using powers & perceptable F/X

 

I'm missing the cheap dodge. What's the cheap dodge? Martial Dodge is like... 5 points isn't it? Dodge itself is free, though, anyone can do that. Maybe not with FTL, but...

[ghost-angel]

Re: END-using powers & perceptable F/X

 

Let me restate my original statement that prompted the "cheap dodge" comment...

 

Hero System doesn't differentiate between between Power and Origin Of Power. In fact it sates you need to be able to locate the Origin of the Power clearly - which to me says "Three Sense Group Rule" right there, part of the perception is the Origin doing something obvious to a Sensory Group.

 

The gun makes the bang, the bullet makes the hole.

 

 

That better PhaseKitty?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: END-using powers & perceptable F/X

 

I think I'm also missing where the rule was broken. i.e., Thia no longer grasps the core of the argument.