Instant Unluck UAA

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

Draining below 0 and Draining a non-existent thing are completely and utterly different concepts.

 

Coming back to the Unluck example, it seems not overly counterintuitive to Drain Luck, and use Unluck dice as the Luck falls into negatives (which would be at the outset when targeting a character who did not purchase Luck).

 

While I'm not sold that Phil's approach is the best for adding Disad's, I haven't seen a better idea. I dislike Transform aesthetically - should it really cost 90+ points to reliably make someone colourblind in a single phase? Should it really cost the same to reliably make him colourblind as to reliably remove his sight entirely, or even all senses entirely? Phil's approach does make the cost of adding a Disad scale with the point value of the Disad - whether we agree that the scale starts and ends at the right point or not.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

Draining below 0 and Draining a non-existent thing are completely and utterly different concepts.

They are if you choose to see them that way. I don't. To me, flexibility is a central principle of the HERO System: the word "can't" should never be used in the rules. I guess it just depends on one's attitude. If your mind is open to new ideas, you can find new, and maybe even better, ways of doing things.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

Well' date=' I've said before (though its been a few years) that the game should have a "Grant" adjustment power. Transform was beefed up to fill that niche and it does ok at it, but I do find it clunky -- particularly for short term effects. As I've said, its been a long time, but IIRC I did a write up based on 15 points per 1d6, similar to Transform and RKA and based on Aid UAA + Ranged + LOS not required to maintain. It basically worked like Aid except instead of improving an existing ability it granted xd6 effect of an ability the recipient didn't have. I didnt cover Disads, though its coverable with the same idea.[/quote']

That's pretty much the same thing I'm doing, only I built it directly with Aid so the cost is different. At 15 points per d6, a 60-AP Grant gives a target an average of 14 Active Points of power (12 with Standard Effect), which fades in three turns. That seems too expensive to me. I assume it's cumulative in the same way an Aid normally is, so with a second application, the target can have 24 Active Points of the granted power, which would then fade in about a minute.

 

I've never seen any reason why granting a new power should cost more than adding to an existing power. Is gaining a 4d6 EB more useful than adding 4d6 to one's existing EB?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

They are if you choose to see them that way. I don't. To me' date=' flexibility is a central principle of the HERO System: the word "can't" should never be used in the rules. I guess it just depends on one's attitude. If your mind is open to new ideas, you can find new, and maybe even better, ways of doing things.[/quote']

 

I don't disagree. I just think Drain is the wrong approach to the desired effect. I never once said it couldn't be done.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

Coming back to the Unluck example' date=' it seems not overly counterintuitive to Drain Luck, and use Unluck dice as the Luck falls into negatives (which would be at the outset when targeting a character who did not purchase Luck).[/quote']

 

If the Target has Luck, I could see this being a good way to handle it being Adjusted into negative numbers.

 

But if the Target doesn't have luck I'm of the opinion you can't Drain, Suppress, or Dispel what doesn't exist.

[Sidume]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

I assume that every character has Unluck. They may not have any dice in it, but that's the assumption I make.

 

Some supernatural entities make bad things happen. Buy it as aid to unluck. Luck serves as a defense. Heck, you could even say that symbols of luck act as a defense. Your rabbit's foot may not have helped the rabbit, but it might be enough to foil a poltergeist.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

If the Target has Luck, I could see this being a good way to handle it being Adjusted into negative numbers.

 

But if the Target doesn't have luck I'm of the opinion you can't Drain, Suppress, or Dispel what doesn't exist.

 

What if he has 0 COM? Does that mean his COM does not exist? Can you drain STR from a small creature with 0, or even negative, STR?

 

It seems reasonable to allow that The target has 0d6 of Luck base. Draining him of 15 points would give him -3d6 of luck, so 3d6 unluck. Simply adopting this as a campaign ground rule allows the ability to adjust luck, even for those who have no points of luck or unluck, as desired by the OP.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

I assume that every character has Unluck. They may not have any dice in it' date=' but that's the assumption I make.[/quote']

Good point. And similar to the assumption I make. I assume also that every character has Physical and Psychological Limitations, they're just not necessarily significant enough to get Disadvantage Points for them. And by the same token, every character has Age, and Distictive Features, and Social Limitations, and Reputation, and Dependence. Most characters also have Dependent NPCs and many have Rivalries.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

What if he has 0 COM? Does that mean his COM does not exist? Can you drain STR from a small creature with 0, or even negative, STR?

 

It seems reasonable to allow that The target has 0d6 of Luck base. Draining him of 15 points would give him -3d6 of luck, so 3d6 unluck. Simply adopting this as a campaign ground rule allows the ability to adjust luck, even for those who have no points of luck or unluck, as desired by the OP.

 

Per my earlier post - I see a difference between a 0 Something and Not Existing.

 

0 COM is a COM score of 0. Not "Doesn't Have A COM Score."

 

To use mathematical terms, 0 is part of the Number Set. Not Existing is Not Having A Number Set At All.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

I assume that every character has Unluck. They may not have any dice in it, but that's the assumption I make.

 

Some supernatural entities make bad things happen. Buy it as aid to unluck. Luck serves as a defense. Heck, you could even say that symbols of luck act as a defense. Your rabbit's foot may not have helped the rabbit, but it might be enough to foil a poltergeist.

 

In certain campaigns, I see this is a very good idea, and a would concede that it can then be Adjusted.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

That's pretty much the same thing I'm doing, only I built it directly with Aid so the cost is different. At 15 points per d6, a 60-AP Grant gives a target an average of 14 Active Points of power (12 with Standard Effect), which fades in three turns. That seems too expensive to me. I assume it's cumulative in the same way an Aid normally is, so with a second application, the target can have 24 Active Points of the granted power, which would then fade in about a minute.

 

I've never seen any reason why granting a new power should cost more than adding to an existing power. Is gaining a 4d6 EB more useful than adding 4d6 to one's existing EB?

 

Yes, granting someone else effects they dont have is more useful than having it just yourself.

 

That aside, the real efficiency of Adjustments is when you apply delayed fade rate and / or expanded effect.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

Yes, granting someone else effects they dont have is more useful than having it just yourself.

 

That aside, the real efficiency of Adjustments is when you apply delayed fade rate and / or expanded effect.

 

This depends, as most things do, on context. Granting the ability to breathe underwater is hugely beneficial in most games. Adding +1d6 to an existing Energy Blast is far more useful than giving people a 1d6 Energy Blast - that EB will not do any damage against most relevant targets.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

This depends' date=' as most things do, on context. Granting the ability to breathe underwater is hugely beneficial in most games. Adding +1d6 to an existing Energy Blast is far more useful than giving people a 1d6 Energy Blast - that EB will not do any damage against most relevant targets.[/quote']

 

Did I say its more useful than adding a little effect to something someone already has? No, no I didnt.

 

Originally Posted by Killer Shrike View Post

Yes, granting someone else effects they dont have is more useful than having it just yourself.

 

Bolded for emphasis.

 

 

If you want to reduce it down to that level, then granting a 1d6 EB is more useful than just having a 1d6 EB.

[Toushirou]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

don't have the rulebook at hand and still don't have so much knowledge about the hero system, but couldn't you buy unluck for yourself with some kind of personal immunity and transfer this unluck to someone else?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

Why not just buy luck for the ghosts, and for sfx, have it manifest as unluck for the players? I mean, if the PC is about to attack the ghost and the ghost uses luck to avoid being hit, then it manifests as the PC falling over, being distracted or somesuch.

 

The defence would be your own luck, which you could buy in a limited version: only to counter the luck of others. Alternatively the luck is bought with a limitation: ineffectvie against anyone carrying a rabbit's foot (or whatever).

 

BTW, the variation that allows you to roll a total and add or subtract that from rolls throughout the game (or reroll dice) - is there any reason that needs to be your own rolls? I mean, arguably, if someone is rolling to hit you, you are alternatively rolling to avoid being hit - it is simply a matter of perspective.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

Good point. And similar to the assumption I make. I assume also that every character has Physical and Psychological Limitations' date=' they're just not necessarily significant enough to get Disadvantage Points for them. And by the same token, every character has Age, and Distictive Features, and Social Limitations, and Reputation, and Dependence. Most characters also have Dependent NPCs and many have Rivalries.[/quote']

 

I have a vision: Aid DNPC!

 

Ha, I make your sister REALLY needy! And your losng lost cousin - suddenly HE needs your help too! Bwahahahaha!

 

Of course, by this token, you could also drain disadvantages. That'll throw VIPER off the scent....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

don't have the rulebook at hand and still don't have so much knowledge about the hero system' date=' but couldn't you buy unluck for yourself with some kind of personal immunity and transfer this unluck to someone else?[/quote']

 

No, in the default Rules Assumption Unluck is a Disadvantage, which cannot be moved around or have Modifiers attached to it.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

Yes' date=' granting someone else effects they dont have is more useful than having it just yourself.[/quote']

But that's not what I asked you. I'll try again:

 

"I've never seen any reason why granting a new power should cost more than adding to an existing power. Is gaining a 4d6 EB more useful than adding 4d6 to one's existing EB?"

 

For example, we have four superguys:

Blastman has a 12d6 EB. Aidman uses his Aid to increase it to 16d6 EB. This is 20 pips of effect, an about average roll on a 6d6 Aid.

Brickman has no EB; he uses his STR in combat. Grantman uses his Grant power to give him a 4d6 EB. This is 20 pips of effect, and about average roll on a 6d6 Grant.

 

Which of those two is more useful? Is there any reason why the 6d6 Grant should cost *more* than the 6d6 Aid?

 

That aside, the real efficiency of Adjustments is when you apply delayed fade rate and / or expanded effect.

Yes, and I've already acknowledged that, and it certainly needs to be kept in check for book-legal Aids as well as my own house-rule "granting" Aid, or disad-relieving Aids, and disad creating/amplifying Drains. But it still doesn't address the question I asked.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

But that's not what I asked you. I'll try again:

 

"I've never seen any reason why granting a new power should cost more than adding to an existing power. Is gaining a 4d6 EB more useful than adding 4d6 to one's existing EB?"

 

................

 

 

No.

 

One for you: is gaining 20 points of invisibility* more useful than adding 20 points to one's invisibility?

 

The point is that for some powers - attack powers generally - gaining the ability is less useful than adding to an existing ability BECAUSE under a certain points value it is almost useless.

 

For virtually everything else, gaining the ability is USUALLY more useful than adding to it.

 

*or mind link, or life support, or...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

No.

Thank you.

 

One for you: is gaining 20 points of invisibility* more useful than adding 20 points to one's invisibility?

In most cases, yes.

 

What conclusion, if any do you draw from these answers? The conclusion I draw is that allowing Aid to grant new powers is a useful tool to add to the toolkit. It provides another way to do something that might be better (more appropriate, more fairly costed) than other methods. Like all other powers in the system, it can be abused.

 

The conclusion some others might draw is that since it is more useful in some cases and less useful in other cases, it should never be allowed into the toolkit at all. I find no logic in that conclusion.

 

The point is that for some powers - attack powers generally - gaining the ability is less useful than adding to an existing ability BECAUSE under a certain points value it is almost useless.

 

For virtually everything else, gaining the ability is USUALLY more useful than adding to it.

Sure. And what powers are more likely to actually be used in such a way? Is the price fair? Is my way too expensive?

 

20 points of Invisibility, UBO costs 25 points, can be given away or used by the owner, one at a time, and it lasts as long as the owner allows the recipient to keep it.

My way, using Aid, requires 20 pips of effect on the Aid dice, an average roll on 6d6, which would cost 60 points. Or a high roll on 4d6, which would cost 40 points, and would likely require two actions. Or a smaller number of dice with the maximum bought up and multiple actions. Or 7d6 with Standard Effect, costing 70 points. It can be granted to any number of people, one at a time (perhaps requiring multiple actions), and once granted, they can all use it simultaneously. The power owner cannot simply become invisible at will - he first has to use the Aid on himself (multiple times if necessary). The Invisibility power goes away at the usual fade rate and can't be taken away prior to this by the granter.

 

When in doubt, do the math and actually compare the numbers to see whether it's balanced. Don't just say, "the book says 'can't,' therefore it must be unbalanced and bad."

 

*or mind link, or life support, or...

For Mind Link and Life Support, I'd say no.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

don't have the rulebook at hand and still don't have so much knowledge about the hero system' date=' but couldn't you buy unluck for yourself with some kind of personal immunity and transfer this unluck to someone else?[/quote']

 

Not by the rules as written.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

But that's not what I asked you. I'll try again:

 

"I've never seen any reason why granting a new power should cost more than adding to an existing power. Is gaining a 4d6 EB more useful than adding 4d6 to one's existing EB?"

 

For example, we have four superguys:

Blastman has a 12d6 EB. Aidman uses his Aid to increase it to 16d6 EB. This is 20 pips of effect, an about average roll on a 6d6 Aid.

Brickman has no EB; he uses his STR in combat. Grantman uses his Grant power to give him a 4d6 EB. This is 20 pips of effect, and about average roll on a 6d6 Grant.

 

Which of those two is more useful? Is there any reason why the 6d6 Grant should cost *more* than the 6d6 Aid?

 

 

The difference being you've added options to the character who lacked EB (or Flight, or whatever) that they didn't already have.

 

The game places a premium upon having options that are not pre-defined prior to game play starting; witness VSFX, VAdv, VPP. Why? One could argue from different perspectives why, but personally I think one of the main reasons is because in a system where you can do potentially ANYTHING, have any ability, bounded only by finite reserves of character points with which to define them, the ability to "rewrite" a character after play starts is potentially destabilizing. There are no hard wired classes, or races, or professions, or any of the other things that differentiates characters in other games; the only thing that really delineates HERO System characters from one another are decisions made at character design time; thus things that erode that foundation are subject to friction in the form of extra costs.

[Kdansky]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

What KS wants to say: Your example was very skewed from the beginning. Since you gave a character a power which he already had (in another variant, namely STR) and compared it to adding to the same power, it was clear that aid wins by far in this case. That's like buying RKA + EB without any sort of framework. Very expensive, very inefficient.

 

But give them flight, Desolidification, Telepathy, or even any sort of defense and you can see why that's so good. Only one character pays for the cost, everyone uses it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

But that's not what I asked you. I'll try again:

 

"I've never seen any reason why granting a new power should cost more than adding to an existing power. Is gaining a 4d6 EB more useful than adding 4d6 to one's existing EB?"

 

For example, we have four superguys:

Blastman has a 12d6 EB. Aidman uses his Aid to increase it to 16d6 EB. This is 20 pips of effect, an about average roll on a 6d6 Aid.

Brickman has no EB; he uses his STR in combat. Grantman uses his Grant power to give him a 4d6 EB. This is 20 pips of effect, and about average roll on a 6d6 Grant.

 

Which of those two is more useful? Is there any reason why the 6d6 Grant should cost *more* than the 6d6 Aid?

 

I would say yes, albeit grudgingly, as the ability to add an ability to anyone is more versatile than the ability to add only to an existing ability the target possesses. Note that Aid STR (which works on everyone) costs the same as Aid Teleportation (which works on a much smaller group).

 

I think the better question might be "what should the advantage for Grant be". Perhaps it should be higher for abilities that not everyone possesses by default. Or perhaps Grant should BE the default, and a limitation applied where the power can only augment existing abilities, with the value of that limitation varying with the frequency of those abilities (with STR being -0 and Teleport being a much higher limitation in the typical game).

 

Aid Life Support without Grant seems virtually useless. The ability to grant anyone 5" Teleportation seems way more effective than the ability to augment existing TPorts by 5". Adding to PD, on the other hand, seems very useful even if it can't add to anyone with no (0) PD to begin with.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Instant Unluck UAA

 

Phil, we may have run this one up the flagpole before

 

I probably wouldn't be too bothered if adjustment powers could grant powers if the ability to do so was reflected in cost - some sort of adder, perhaps, increasing in cost the more you can grant. After all you can do the same thing this way:

 

VPP 2 points Cosmic control cost 3 points - all powers are uncontrolled UBO. Then you can grant a power to someone and use your adjustment powers to boost it. OK that slows you down a little - it will take 2 phases to grant and boost, but it is still pretty useful (and you could get around that with a linkage, probably).

 

However, my concern is that you are, in effect, creating a very cheap way to build a VPP. Sure you can grant EB: what about AP EB, or AoE, or autofire, or double penetrating AoE autofire....what about limited powers - can you grant them (at the cost break cost). It is an interesting idea, but one that I think needs some definition.