package deal question

[FireTiger]

Re: package deal question

 

how do package deal's work in relation to normal maximum's? or specifically for racial package deals. i was reading through the "terran empire" setting book for star hero's...and noticed that the Korundar race has +20 str bonus but that it did not indicate an increase in points over the maximum of 20. is this because the bonus/racial package sets the "maximum" for what ever stats in the package at a new level. so that the Horundar's max str is 40' date=' and any point added beyond this will cost x2 as much? am i understanding this right? package deals "can" increase/decrease the maximum of stats that pertain to it? (did that even make sense?) i re-read through the hero core book and the terran empire book but i didnt see any thing that indicated either way what actually takes palce with a package deal?[/quote']

 

First, let me mention that I've seen Terran Empire yet, so if what follows turns out to be totally out-to-lunch, my apologies.

 

Second, within that book—if someone would be so kind as to check me on this?—is it stated that Normal Characteristic Maxima (NCM) is being enforced?

 

And third, it appears that Package Deals in 5th ed. are built on the presumption that NCM is an option, rather than a requirement, and the costs for characteristics have been calculated accordingly.

 

If it not being enforced, then the costs with the Package Deals may be used as-is.

 

If it is being enforced, then one could either increases the costs of the affected characteristics (like the +20 STR costing 40 points in the example), or decrease the final characteristic value based on the increased cost (like the +20 points yielding a STR of 25, as mentioned by sbarron).

 

That's all I've got to toss into the ring, hopefully it actually makes sense.

[sbarron]

And third, it appears that Package Deals in 5th ed. are built on the presumption that NCM is an option, rather than a requirement, and the costs for characteristics have been calculated accordingly.

 

If it not being enforced, then the costs with the Package Deals may be used as-is.

 

If it is being enforced, then one could either increases the costs of the affected characteristics (like the +20 STR costing 40 points in the example), or decrease the final characteristic value based on the increased cost (like the +20 points yielding a STR of 25, as mentioned by sbarron).

I think this is highlighting some of the misunderstanding. Unlike D&D, when Hero's package deals state "Korundar...+20 STR," it doesn't mean Korundar's add 20 to their 10 STR to get to 30 STR. It's saying "Korundar's all pay +20 character points for STR." Which of course, gets them to 25.

 

This package deal is just a way to show how the Korundar race spends character points. It's not designed to show you what a Korundar's character sheet would look like, even though you can glean that info from the package deal.

 

It's less of an issue for most races, since the additional points spent in characteristics match the "starting" characteristics scores. But NCM and package deals are not linked in any way.

[adidamps2]

thanks for ALL the help guys

 

First' date=' let me mention that I've seen [i']Terran Empire[/i] yet, so if what follows turns out to be totally out-to-lunch, my apologies.

 

Second, within that book—if someone would be so kind as to check me on this?—is it stated that Normal Characteristic Maxima (NCM) is being enforced? Terran Emprire page 192 under PLAYER CHARACTERS, 2nd paragraph " NCM restrictions automatically apply to all Terran Emprire characters for no Disadvantage points"

 

And third, it appears that Package Deals in 5th ed. are built on the presumption that NCM is an option, rather than a requirement, and the costs for characteristics have been calculated accordingly.

 

If it not being enforced, then the costs with the Package Deals may be used as-is.

 

If it is being enforced, then one could either increases the costs of the affected characteristics (like the +20 STR costing 40 points in the example), or decrease the final characteristic value based on the increased cost (like the +20 points yielding a STR of 25, as mentioned by sbarron).

 

That's all I've got to toss into the ring, hopefully it actually makes sense.

ok well now i see were went i awry...i am a long time D&D player ..so when i saw racial bonuses in package deals i automatically went with my long time gaming exp. that racial bonuses/penalties adjusted NCM for said ability score. however you guys have done a great job of explaining to me how the package deals work (which was really my biggest question) and how i can work with those rules to make them fit my campaign idea's. i truelly appreciate the help here.

 

BTW how do you tell which 5thed version book you have? i am pretty sure i do not have the "revised" edition.

[ghost-angel]

Re: package deal question

 

If you have the word REVISED on the cover, you have the Revised book.

[adidamps2]

Re: package deal question

 

If you have the word REVISED on the cover' date=' you have the Revised book.[/quote']

hmmm well it seems i do not have that word on my cover. what am i missing out on then? is there a PDF file available or soem other resource that summ's up all of what has changed? is it even significant enough to worry about?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: package deal question

 

hmmm well it seems i do not have that word on my cover. what am i missing out on then? is there a PDF file available or soem other resource that summ's up all of what has changed? is it even significant enough to worry about?

 

Revised is about half again larger. It has all the errata between the 1st version and its release, and most of the FAQ up to that time too, as well as more examples, the Genre by Genre web supplement, and various other little goodies. It also has some modified mechanics...the most significant that comes to mind is that the Trigger Advantage is greatly expanded.

 

You don't need it per se, but its definitely a real value IMO, not just a reprint with a few fixed typos.

[adidamps2]

Re: package deal question

 

Revised is about half again larger. It has all the errata between the 1st version and its release, and most of the FAQ up to that time too, as well as more examples, the Genre by Genre web supplement, and various other little goodies. It also has some modified mechanics...the most significant that comes to mind is that the Trigger Advantage is greatly expanded.

 

You don't need it per se, but its definitely a real value IMO, not just a reprint with a few fixed typos.

that means the most to me...as i despise spending money on new books that just rehash things but really dont change things.

[FireTiger]

Re: thanks for ALL the help guys

 

Second' date=' within that book—if someone would be so kind as to check me on this?—is it stated that Normal Characteristic Maxima (NCM) is being enforced? Terran Emprire page 192 under PLAYER CHARACTERS, 2nd paragraph " NCM restrictions automatically apply to all Terran Emprire characters for no Disadvantage points"

 

Thank'ee. So, as others have probably mentioned above this post, you'd get an end result for the example race having STR 25 at a cost of 20 points.

 

(I have a limited amount of 5th ed. material in print myself so far: 5th Edition, 5th Edition Revised, Sidekick Revised, UNTIL Superpowers Database Revised, Character Creation Handbook, and the Champions Universe for 5th edition.)

[adidamps2]

Re: thanks for ALL the help guys

 

Thank'ee. So, as others have probably mentioned above this post, you'd get an end result for the example race having STR 25 at a cost of 20 points.

 

(I have a limited amount of 5th ed. material in print myself so far: 5th Edition, 5th Edition Revised, Sidekick Revised, UNTIL Superpowers Database Revised, Character Creation Handbook, and the Champions Universe for 5th edition.)

tha'st essentially ther core book with out all the fluff right? would that be a good book to buy in lieu of a "revised" 5th ed book? to have it go along with my 5th ed book.

[ghost-angel]

Re: package deal question

 

The Online FAQ and the Genre By Genre Document from the Free Stuff section covers the difference between the two books.

[ghost-angel]

Re: thanks for ALL the help guys

 

Thank'ee. So, as others have probably mentioned above this post, you'd get an end result for the example race having STR 25 at a cost of 20 points.

 

(I have a limited amount of 5th ed. material in print myself so far: 5th Edition, 5th Edition Revised, Sidekick Revised, UNTIL Superpowers Database Revised, Character Creation Handbook, and the Champions Universe for 5th edition.)

 

Actually, I take it to mean the Player needs to spend an extra 10pts to get the full Package Deal assuming they want baseline Characteristics for that Race.

[Lucius]

Re: package deal question

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again; if NCM is a good idea, why isn't it used anywhere else in the system?

 

The books says the person running the game should set certain limits; Active Point limits, Damage Class limits, Defenses limits, OCV and DCV limits. And then either say "That's it, no exceptions," or "If you go beyond those limits, I will look it over very carefully and allow exceptions on a case by case basis IF I don't think they're unbalancing."

 

Nothing about "if you want to exceed the campaign damage cap, just spend double points!"

 

 

Mind you, I'm all in favor of a Game Operations Director saying "No, you can't play a 'normal Human' in my game with a STR over 20!" (or 15, or 25, or wherever the limit is set.) I'll stand up and cheer. Hooray, for setting limits that define the game you want!

 

The implication being they go on to say either "If your STR (CON, BOD, whatever) is over that, one way or the other you're NOT 'normal Human.'" or "NOBODY (no player character anyway) gets to be that Strong (Agile, Tough, what have you.)"

 

 

What I'm opposed to is

1. This "one size fits all" idea that the same maximum applies across genres, games, species, etc. etc. and even more importantly,

2. The idea that a limit can be set, and then be broken just by spending twice as many points. It's THAT idea in particular that leads to all kinds of unfairness, absurdity, and needless complication.

 

 

 

Oh, and Captain:

I think the solution to the STR conundrum is not to INCREASE STR cost, but DECREASE cost of figured characteristics.

And I have no clue what you're talking about on DEX or why you'd say that. But let's take both these issues elsewhere if you want to talk about them.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The Palindromedary exceeds a lot of Normal Maximums.

[Paragon]

Re: package deal question

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again; if NCM is a good idea, why isn't it used anywhere else in the system?

 

 

I think it lands in the "better than nothing" area; an absolute limit might not always serve most campaigns here, so there's a comprimise. Personally, I use a bit of both; in heroic scale games I have the the doubling point, and then an absolute cap about one and a half times that (so in a typical heroic scale game I run you can't have a human with more than a 30 Dex or a 6 Speed tops, for example).

 

Now this does run into the issue that you need to set different racial maximums, which can create some balance questions, but that's wrapped in a problem Hero's always had in that area.

[Lucius]

Re: package deal question

 

I think it lands in the "better than nothing" area; .

 

Which would make sense, if the alternative was "nothing."

 

an absolute limit might not always serve most campaigns here' date=' [/quote']

 

So it doesn't have to be absolute. Like all other campaign limits, it can be a "soft cap" rather than a "hard cap."

 

Now this does run into the issue that you need to set different racial maximums' date=' which can create some balance questions, but that's wrapped in a problem Hero's always had in that area.[/quote']

 

Only because it's always had the NCM. Eliminate that, and what balance problem do you have?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a well balanced palindromedary

[Kdansky]

Re: package deal question

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again; if NCM is a good idea, why isn't it used anywhere else in the system?

 

The books says the person running the game should set certain limits; Active Point limits, Damage Class limits, Defenses limits, OCV and DCV limits. And then either say "That's it, no exceptions," or "If you go beyond those limits, I will look it over very carefully and allow exceptions on a case by case basis IF I don't think they're unbalancing."

 

Nothing about "if you want to exceed the campaign damage cap, just spend double points!"

 

 

Mind you, I'm all in favor of a Game Operations Director saying "No, you can't play a 'normal Human' in my game with a STR over 20!" (or 15, or 25, or wherever the limit is set.) I'll stand up and cheer. Hooray, for setting limits that define the game you want!

 

The implication being they go on to say either "If your STR (CON, BOD, whatever) is over that, one way or the other you're NOT 'normal Human.'" or "NOBODY (no player character anyway) gets to be that Strong (Agile, Tough, what have you.)"

 

 

What I'm opposed to is

1. This "one size fits all" idea that the same maximum applies across genres, games, species, etc. etc. and even more importantly,

2. The idea that a limit can be set, and then be broken just by spending twice as many points. It's THAT idea in particular that leads to all kinds of unfairness, absurdity, and needless complication.

 

 

 

Oh, and Captain:

I think the solution to the STR conundrum is not to INCREASE STR cost, but DECREASE cost of figured characteristics.

And I have no clue what you're talking about on DEX or why you'd say that. But let's take both these issues elsewhere if you want to talk about them.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The Palindromedary exceeds a lot of Normal Maximums.

 

If there were cake, you would have won it! Repped!

 

By the way: it would be nice to see repped posts directly (the post lists all rep messages + who was it) so we don't write these "I repped you" posts, which are kind of pointless.

[ghost-angel]

Re: package deal question

 

You can see who repped your post by clicking on the scales on any one of your own posts.

[Paragon]

Re: package deal question

 

Which would make sense, if the alternative was "nothing."

 

 

It probably seemed so on design.

 

 

So it doesn't have to be absolute. Like all other campaign limits, it can be a "soft cap" rather than a "hard cap."

 

This assumes you consider soft caps, which are fundamentally arbitrary, a good thing. Sometimes they're necessary in some areas, but as far as I'm concerned, the less I have to debate with players about why player X gets to do something they don't, the better; attributes are universal enough its the last place I want to see it.

 

 

 

Only because it's always had the NCM. Eliminate that, and what balance problem do you have?

 

 

You don't. But you have a different kind of problem I don't see as any better, as I note above.

[Lucius]

Re: package deal question

 

This assumes you consider soft caps, which are fundamentally arbitrary, a good thing. Sometimes they're necessary in some areas, but as far as I'm concerned, the less I have to debate with players about why player X gets to do something they don't, the better; attributes are universal enough its the last place I want to see it.

 

I'm sorry you have such problematic players. In my experience, most people understand why it's possible for an Ogre to have STR 25 but not a Pixie.

 

So, do you also allow people to break other campaign limits by doubling the points?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Let the palindromedary eat cake

[Paragon]

Re: package deal question

 

I'm sorry you have such problematic players. In my experience, most people understand why it's possible for an Ogre to have STR 25 but not a Pixie.

 

 

But they don't necessarily understand why one human can, but you don't want all of them doing so, or even most.

 

 

So, do you also allow people to break other campaign limits by doubling the points?

 

 

Since attributes are the only areas where there's an absolute limit in the first place, its moot. Most other areas, I don't claim that a limit is based on species traits, either; its simply naked campaign support. As such, I don't consider the two cases parallel except in the vaguest possible way.

[Lucius]

Re: package deal question

 

But they don't necessarily understand why one human can, but you don't want all of them doing so, or even most.

 

If that's what the problem is, I fail to see how NCM helps. If they're all determined to have STR 23, they'll all spend the extra points for it, I would think. You're telling me that in your experience, without NCM the players would all choose, say, 23 to 25 STR, but with NCM most of them don't but one or two do? Do the rest cluster around STR 20 then?

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Trying to keep the palindromedary from eating the chocolate orc.

[Paragon]

Re: package deal question

 

If that's what the problem is, I fail to see how NCM helps. If they're all determined to have STR 23, they'll all spend the extra points for it, I would think. You're telling me that in your experience, without NCM the players would all choose, say, 23 to 25 STR, but with NCM most of them don't but one or two do? Do the rest cluster around STR 20 then?

 

 

"All" and "most" weren't in my statement, but on a more limited case you're response is exactly correct. People will tend to not go above human unless they feel like they have an overriding reason to do so with NCM. Strength might be a bad example as its often too attractive in heroic scale games, but I've certainly seen the effect with Dexterity. So yes, in my experience it does what its supposed to; makes trans-normal-human-range attributes rarer in the PC population than it otherwise would be.