Weapon Speed

[Nygenn]

Yo

 

Something i've been thinking about and wanted some different perspectives on is 'Weapon Speed'

 

Would it be a nice idea and if so how, to add speed modifiers to weapons.

The only thing that differenciates weapons now is the dmg they do and, if you use the STR minimum rule, the accuracy. But don't you think that a knife, for example, should be able to slash faster than someone would swing a flail or other heavy weapon type? Or maybe I should have turned things around and said that heavy weapons would be slower than light weapons as to avoid the misunderstanding that wielding light weapons make you faster.

 

please, your thoughts on this subject, thank you very much.

[Outsider]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

Interesting idea.

 

Perhaps make the DEX on which a weapon user acts = to the user's DEX - the STR min of the weapon he is using?

Runs into trouble when the person wants to do something other than strike though.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

Maybe they could have a Max speed, DEX like a vehicle modified by the STR over Min somehow.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

I've considered this as well.

 

I think the best way to handle this would be to assign each weapon a Speed Factor (just a nod to the old skool) which is a penalty to the users DEX for purposes of attacking.

 

STR Min would affect this. Having less than the STR min will add to the Speed Factor (thus increasing the DEX penalty), having more will reduce it. For every 2pts of difference between the wielders STR and the weapons STR min, the Speed Factor should be adjusted.

 

This is also a good use for Skill Levels. GM's could allow players to spend Skill Levels on a 1 for 1 basis to cancel Speed Factor. Penalty Skill Levels vs Speed Factor penalties could apply as well.

 

The amount of Speed Factor obviously depends on the weapons length, weight, balance and ease of use. Examples:

 

Fist: 0

Dagger: 1

Short Sword: 2

Long Sword: 3

Bastard Sword: 4

Greatsword: 5

Mace: 4

Battleaxe: 5

Morning Star: 5

Quarterstaff: 3

Polearm: 5

Pistol: 1

SMG: 2

Rifle: 4

Shotgun: 3

Assault Rifle: 4

Lightsabre: 1

 

A Speed Factor could be assigned to specific Martial Arts maneuvers as well

Fast Strike: 0

Offensive Strike: 3

Martial Strike: 1

Defensive Strike: 2

 

Or you could get more specific:

Roundhouse Kick: 3

Tornado Kick: 4

Snap Kick: 2

Tiger Claw: 1

Knifehand: 2

Palm Strike: 0

 

Technology or Magic could also affect Speed Factor. Weapons made lighter than normal could reduce the Speed Factor penalty. Magic Weapons could actually make a Speed Factor that adds to DEX!

[L. Marcus]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

I feel it's a bit of unnecessary bookkeeping, but it could be important in flavor-evoking . . .

 

I'd say that for every three steps or part thereof below the STR Min of the weapon, the DEX of the character for purposes of determining when he acts gets reduced by one.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

I'd do it by buying 'lightning reflexes' for fast weapons, just like you buy damage and OCV bonuses. That way the weapon speed adds tot he character's DEX for determining order in any given phase. It would work the same as NSG'd idea but you'd have to reverse all the numbers.

[Crypt]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

Yo

 

Something i've been thinking about and wanted some different perspectives on is 'Weapon Speed'

 

Would it be a nice idea and if so how, to add speed modifiers to weapons.

The only thing that differenciates weapons now is the dmg they do and, if you use the STR minimum rule, the accuracy. But don't you think that a knife, for example, should be able to slash faster than someone would swing a flail or other heavy weapon type? Or maybe I should have turned things around and said that heavy weapons would be slower than light weapons as to avoid the misunderstanding that wielding light weapons make you faster.

 

please, your thoughts on this subject, thank you very much.

 

 

 

IMHO weapon length rules simulates handness of small weapons so there is no need for weapons speed.

(Fantasy Hero page 186 / Combat HandBook 52-53 : OCV Penalties: if the small weapon comes close enough (by scoring a hit) to the long weapon the long weapon get the malus. That's a very easy and nice way to simulate both HTH weapons speed and length in the same rule.)

This rule is very effective because : if you want to get your full OCV value you will have to spend your CSL on OCV to counter the malus you get from weapons length: so you have less CSL for defense (DCV) . (this is the same thing as applying a malus to a Rolemaster character's OB ===> he has less points to use in parry.)

 

 

 

PS: trying to make weapon speed and length rules is always a very tricky thing...(it can even be a nightmare if there is no SkillPoints/Time general conversion rule.)

I've tried that several times for several RPGs. The only easy and elegant way to do it is the Combat HandBook 52-53 rule. It's so intuitive that i've applied it to Rolemaster even before having bought HERO. (I've also found a similar version in a french RPG: Pavillon Noir.)

[Nygenn]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

I'd do it by buying 'lightning reflexes' for fast weapons' date=' just like you buy damage and OCV bonuses.[/quote']

 

Up until now I always bought the maneuver 'Fast Strike' with lightning reflexes because it just didn't felt right that a fast strike wasn't any faster at all. I've considered doing the same for different weapons but it's really a whole lot easier to apply penalties to them instead of bonusses, besides it would be really weird to see someone be able to strike faster with something than without something.

 

IMHO weapon length rules simulates handness of small weapons so there is no need for weapons speed.

 

I'm aware of the Weapons Lenght rule and really like it a lot to be honest, but I don't really see it affects a weapons speed or better said, the characters initiative with a specific weapon.

 

I still think that applying DEX penalties is the best way to go about this, the main problem now is just to determine the severity of the penalty.

Either assign individual penalties or come up with a system, maybe one based on the STR minimum of a weapon like:

1-10 STR minimum poses a -1

11-15 STR minimum poses a -2

16-20 STR minimum poses a -3

20+ STR minimum (should you ever make something like this) -4

 

All in all, my thanks to everyone for their thoughts and assistance so far ^^

[Crypt]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

Is guess this is a question of point of view but, from mine, weapon Length/Mass/Balance are, at least, 3 of the necessary factors to take into account if you want a realistic result when dealing with attack speed.

 

This is only 3 factors but this can lead to extreme complexity if you don't combine them.

(Space around the attacker and Attack mode (estoc or lever) are two other factors... estoc is always faster than lever but less powerfull, but the weapon sharpness/pointness may be more effective in estoc than in lever, etc, etc, etc.........so Weapon Penetration (==> area of contact, wich leads to strength by area of contact, which lead to damages) can also be a useful factor........)

 

A simple friendly warning = you won't get a realistic speed rule if you don't takes those factors into account, so you'd better give up. That's just my opinion, of course (good luck )

 

 

 

I simply state that the shorter the faster AND the more distance between characters the slower their attacks BUT the bigger a weapon is the faster it comes to contact. ======> Thus, that's why i think that the Hero's HTH weapons length rule is also a HTP weapons speed rule even if the word "speed" is not written.

[Nygenn]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

Thanks for the advice, I'll see how or what.

 

In the meantime, there's anothing thing I would like to hear some different opinions about, and it's got to do with weapon speed.

 

I'm talking about arrows. We like playing Fantasy Hero and bows and arrows are plentyful there. The thing is though, is there a way, not to complex, to make arrows fly a little more realistic? Let's say you shoot an arrow at it's max range somewhere over 200", acording to the rules the arrow travels that distance instantly, while in reality you'd shoot the thing ina curve and it'll be a few seconds before the arrow lands.

 

I hope I'm conveing my question right, I don't really have a way with words

[Crypt]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

Thanks for the advice, I'll see how or what.

 

In the meantime, there's anothing thing I would like to hear some different opinions about, and it's got to do with weapon speed.

 

I'm talking about arrows. We like playing Fantasy Hero and bows and arrows are plentyful there. The thing is though, is there a way, not to complex, to make arrows fly a little more realistic? Let's say you shoot an arrow at it's max range somewhere over 200", acording to the rules the arrow travels that distance instantly, while in reality you'd shoot the thing ina curve and it'll be a few seconds before the arrow lands.

 

I hope I'm conveing my question right, I don't really have a way with words

 

 

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=216427

 

if you read french:

http://jrbjrb.club.fr/table/intro.htm

 

http://jrbjrb.club.fr/table/balistique%20Gailledreau.htm

 

...is there a way, not to complex...

 

no....

 

try that:

http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~apostol/arrow/

[Sean Waters]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

Up until now I always bought the maneuver 'Fast Strike' with lightning reflexes because it just didn't felt right that a fast strike wasn't any faster at all. I've considered doing the same for different weapons but it's really a whole lot easier to apply penalties to them instead of bonusses' date=' besides it would be really weird to see someone be able to strike faster with something than without something.[/quote']

 

Actually it is not that weird. It is not that you can necessarily strike faster but that you get the opportunity to hit first. Think about someone with a dagger fighting someone with a sword. Although the sword is bigger and bulkier, because it is longer you actually can make the end move faster because of leverage and in all likelihood the dagger fighter is going to have to react to the sword fighter's move, or try a block so that they can get in first next time.

 

I've always felt that the idea that small weapons should be quicker was frankly wrong.

[Nygenn]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

Hmm, hadn't looked at it from that angle... now I feel all stupid and silly

 

And Thanks but no thanks Crypt. I was actually hoping for something along the lines of a system someone might have deviced that says that arrows take so many seconds thus segments to travel X distance, which would make hitting moving targets over long distances almost impossible unless they don't see it comming. Please someone tell me that this sounds logical to you too.

[CTaylor]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

Small weapons are quicker, because it takes less energy to get the weapon into play. It just doesn't matter ultimately in real life.

 

And Fast Strike is called that because it moves so fast it gives bonus to OCV (harder to block or dodge). Adding lighting reflexes to it is great, but it faces the same hit list headaches.

[Maur]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

GURPS has some of the Range vs Speed of Flight stuff along with rules for avoiding the attacks. Namely, just change your direction of travel and no matter how well the guy rolled to hit, you won't be where the bullet/arrow is heading (provided you are far enough away that flight time is < 1 second).

[Crypt]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

Hmm, hadn't looked at it from that angle... now I feel all stupid and silly

 

And Thanks but no thanks Crypt. I was actually hoping for something along the lines of a system someone might have deviced that says that arrows take so many seconds thus segments to travel X distance, which would make hitting moving targets over long distances almost impossible unless they don't see it comming. Please someone tell me that this sounds logical to you too.

 

 

sorry, i thought you asked for some ballistic informations.

 

Nevermind, for info a normal arrow fly at no more than 100m/s

An interesting site:

http://www.stortford-archers.org.uk/medieval.htm

 

In order to apply a very simple ballistic approach you may for instance state that the arrow follow an almost equilateral triangular way (let's say 75% of 2X one side) instead of a curved one for far ranges. If, for instance you are at 100 m from a target, the arrow will travel 2X100X0,75m=150m before hitting the target. Thus knowing the arrow speed you know the time (and segments) required. (150m at 100m/s = 1.5s rounded to 1 or 2 segments, as you like it.)

 

That's extremely simple but complex enough for a rpg.

The big question is: at what beginning range should you apply such a formulae ? I don't know. It should depends on bow strength.

IMHO, at less than 50 m, don't bother with arrows speed, they're too fast.

 

 

Is that the kind of thing you asked about ?

[Nygenn]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

Yep that's pretty much it, and I know that on short distances it doesn't really matter, but often enough I see my fellow heroes trying to shoot things at the maximum range of their bows and hit everything just because they have sufficient levels. Sure those levels can be used to better aim and counter all the aditional factors such as the arc in which the arrow flies and wind that might alter it's course a bit and whatnot, but surely not the speed by which it flies. More than once, when I see arrows fly 400m in single phase I'm tempted to build a maneuver that adds velocity dmg and abuse the 'realism' we're currently using.

 

Of course I'm nitpicking a lot and being very annoying about it, but most of my characters are melee only and often on the receiving end of such arrows And I don't always want to be forced to buy Missle Deflection or build a new character.

So that's why I was looking for something like that, pretty much an extra time: next segment limitation on arrows and other projectile when they are supposed to cover a large distance.

[Crypt]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

In order to apply a very simple ballistic approach you may for instance state that the arrow follow an almost equilateral triangular way (let's say 75% of 2X one side) instead of a curved one for far ranges. If, for instance you are at 100 m from a target, the arrow will travel 2X100X0,75m=150m before hitting the target. Thus knowing the arrow speed you know the time (and segments) required. (150m at 100m/s = 1.5s rounded to 1 or 2 segments, as you like it.)

 

PS:

2X1side (without the 75%.) would be even simpler.

Thus 100m from target = 200 m path

 

But for a perfect curve => 2 x Pi x radius / 2 ==> Pi x distance / 2.

So instead of 2X distance you could use Pi/2==> 1.5X distance if you prefer (which is the same as 75% of 2X)

 

The big problem is still: the 1.5 distance formulae is very artificial because arrows always follow a curve, whatever the distance, because of Earth's gravity so what is the beginning range for such a "distance increase" ? As a thumb rule, maybe 33% or 50% of maximum bow range ?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

Hmm, hadn't looked at it from that angle... now I feel all stupid and silly

 

And Thanks but no thanks Crypt. I was actually hoping for something along the lines of a system someone might have deviced that says that arrows take so many seconds thus segments to travel X distance, which would make hitting moving targets over long distances almost impossible unless they don't see it comming. Please someone tell me that this sounds logical to you too.

 

Sometimes a change of perspective is a good thing

 

In answer to the arrow thing, a quick bit of internet research shows that arrows travel 200 to 300 feet per second, which, in Hero terms is 33-50 inches per segment.

 

Bullets travel 200-1500 metres per second, or 100 to 750 inches per segment in Hero terms (again based on very quick internet search).

 

Bullets are probably traveling too fast to see in flight, and are too small - you'd need to perceive the flash or smoke of firing to react.

 

Arrows can be seen in flight, against a high contrast background, but again you'd probably need to know it was coming by seeing it released. I'd say the penalty for noticing an arrow in flight (if you had not seen it released) would be -14 for the size modifier (assuming an arrow is 1-3 cm in cross section) plus a range modifier: virtually impossible, but not completely.

[Crypt]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

In answer to the arrow thing, a quick bit of internet research shows that arrows travel 200 to 300 feet per second, which, in Hero terms is 33-50 inches per segment.

 

...for modern bows and crossbows.

For ancient ones it seems that powerfull bows shot at no more than 60 or 70 m/s (and the speed tends to decrease as the arrow flies so you may average this value to 50 m/s if you prefer.)

 

 

Well that makes the previous thumb arrow speed rule a bit more interesting

100m at 50m/s => 150 m ==> 3 s

50m at 50m/s => 75 m ==> 1.5 s

33m at 50m/s => 50 m ==> 1 s

25m at 50m/s => 37 m ==> 0.75 s or 0.5 s without "curved" path.

etc....

[Crypt]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

a very simple way of solving the curve problem:

 

0-10% max range => actual path = distance X 1.1

11-20% max range => actual path = distance X 1.2

21-30% max range => actual path = distance X 1.3

31-40% max range => actual path = distance X 1.4

41%+ max range => actual path = distance X 1.5

 

So the arrow never follows a straight line.

 

 

Now, the hardest part would be to convert bow strength to average speed.

I think we can use StrMin as the bow strength.

 

One information i have found are about modern bows: 55lbs 215fps=70m/s

 

In another source, about medieval bows i've read that:

Longbow 68 lbs. 133.7 fps

Crossbow 740 lbs 138.7 fps

 

There is a major difference between the modern version and the ancient one (this is a good illustration of the fact modern bow are much more powerfull than ancient ones for the same draw weight) and an even bigger difference between the ancient bow and the ancient crossbow.

http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/crossbow/cross_l_v_c.html

 

Well, right now i don't know how we could convert StrMin to ancient/modern bow/crossbow lbs and speed.

 

Any idea ? (i think i would use 50m/s all the time....)

 

 

 

another interesting site:

http://www.huntersfriend.com/2007-Carbon-Arrows/arrow-selection-guide5.htm

 

 

Arrow weight also influences its speed but

"In other words, a fast light arrow may be moving faster as it leaves the bow, but at 40 yards it may be slower than a heavier arrow out of the same bow."

so let's put this factor aside.

[Maur]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

So, using a little physics and some Trig I was able to come up with a rough flight time vs distance to travel based on different exit velocities. This discounts the force of friction which will sap any ammo of its velocity the further it travels but gives you an idea. Guns, with an exit velocity of 200+ m/s have a linear slope on the flight time vs distance out to at least 1km. In fact, a gun with a muzzle velocity of 1000m/s has a flight time of 1.000012 seconds to reach 1km. Or, an increase of only 12 MILLIONTHS of a second which means you really are aiming right at what you want to hit, heheh.

 

For those that want to follow the math...

 

Flight Time = Distance (linear) / (Initial Velocity * Cosine (Theta))

Theta = 0.5 * Arcsine(g * Distance (linear) / (Initial Velocity ^ 2))

 

Obviously to make this more accurate would require the inclusion of friction in reducing the velocity, but that requires knowing the mass and cross-sectional area of the object.

 

 

The different lines are the initial velocities of the various calculations. Not all of them have the same number of data points as there is no way to get them to go the distance no matter what angle you hold the weapon at, heheh.

[Crypt]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

 

Obviously to make this more accurate would require the inclusion of friction in reducing the velocity, but that requires knowing the mass and cross-sectional area of the object.

 

 

this site:

http://www.huntersfriend.com/2007-Carbon-Arrows/arrow-selection-guide5.htm

speaks about 3% velocity loss every 10 yards for an arrow.

[Maur]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

OK, that is an approximation for an arrow. But that isn't universal to anything that might be fired at that speed (tasers, rubber rounds, paintball pellets, etc...). But at least the chart does give a realistic idea of the maximum range something might have based on the exit velocity it starts with on flat open ground. Such as a 40m/s exit has a limit somewhere around 150m downrange (provided no tailwind)

[Crypt]

Re: Weapon Speed

 

But at least the chart does give a realistic idea of the maximum range something might have based on the exit velocity it starts with on flat open ground. Such as a 40m/s exit has a limit somewhere around 150m downrange (provided no tailwind)

 

 

and that's really nice