What do you think

[archermoo]

Re: What do you think

 

Some advice for GM's about this situation would be nice, I agree with you there. I just don't know that a separate power build is necessarty for this single special effect.

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think they are looking for a power build for it. I think they are looking for an entirely separate Power.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What do you think

 

 

You can build the power 'suffocate', but it is big and sprawling and messy, if you want to be able to suffocate anyone and not, for example, people with less than 15 REC (or whatever).

 

Suffocation is something we see a lot in the comics as a power, and there are plenty of other situations where the ability to suffocate someone (using CO2, for example) is a power we should be able to emulate.

 

Now if we have a power that 'does' suffocation, whether it be a build or a separate power, or whatever, then it should have the same effect as the system rules for suffocation: no recoveries (as opposed to reducing REC to 0), at least 1 END burn per defender's phase, then 1 Stun, then 1 Body.

 

At present there is no way to build 'turning off recoveries' other than draining REC to 0 or transforming the target.

 

At present there is no way to reduce END other than to adjust it, and that does not work in the same way as burning 1 END per phase. For one thing, returning characteristics are independent of recoveries. You can get around this with custom lims bit, like I said, it is messy.

 

I think we can all agree that the official choke hold is not simply cutting off your oxygen as it works nothing like suffocation.

 

So, what 'we' are suggesting is that a common effect like suffocation needs an easy option for building it.

 

Frankly I don't care if it is a build, presented like a talent, a new power, an adder for force wall or just an acknowledgment in the rules that blocking someone's breathing makes them suffocate, and you can do that with a physical attack or with TK, or any combination of the above.

 

My only contention (and I believe Hugh is coming at this from a similar angle) is that there is not an adequate suffocation ability in the system and we need one. I do think that would be best accomplished with a new power. That seems cleanest to me and, whilst it would almost certainly be a fixed price power, if we all work together on this we might just come up with something that satisfies everyone and enhances the system.

 

That's got to be worth trying.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What do you think

 

As the real world results from them are also enormously different I would hope that the game effects would be as well.

 

...and had I been arguing that Hero already did suffocation by choke hold, I would be truly chagrined.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What do you think

 

Honestly, I think you guys argue just to argue. The rule book gives a direct reference from one rule to the other. Choke Hold has an explicit GOTO the Drowning rules after the target is unconscious.

 

CHOKE HOLD (page 399)

...

A character rendered unconscious by a Choke Hold can be killed by continued application of the Maneuver. After the Choke Hold has rendered the target unconscious it does 1 BODY per Phase to the target if it's maintained (See HOLDING BREATH AND DROWNING, page 424.)

 

HOLDING BREATH AND DROWNING (page 424)

A character who holds his breath does not get to Recover, even on Post-Segment 12. He also expends a minimum of 1 END per Phase. He may lower his SPD to 2 to reduce the amount of END he uses.

 

A character who runs out of END while not breathing expends STUN as END (see page 425). A character who runs out of STUN then loses BODY, drowning at -1 BODY / Phase.

...

 

 

Now, that aside, if you really feel the need for a Custom Power to "suffocate" someone faster as a Power, that is just another form of a KILLING ATTACK. When you suffocate someone you kill them. If you don't want it to cause permanent damage if it stops, then use DRAIN vs BODY so the damage fades back after the effect is turned off. If you want it to work just like a Choke, then use TK with the Choke Hold maneuver. If you want everyone to be able to perform a Choke, then just make it a standard Maneuver. Etc etc and whatever, the bottom line is that the rules already present multiple MECHANICS to accomplish the EFFECT depending on the SFX and flavor you want. You are solving a problem that doesn't exist.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What do you think

 

You may be missing the point. I'm just not agreeing that the choke hold does suffocation RULES damage. It might do suffocation damage, that's just sfx, but it is not suffocation according to the rules.

 

Sure, when you have rendered someone unconscious then you do take suffocation Body damage if you continue the hold but not like the suffocation rules, which would cause an unconscious person to take 2 Body a turn (their speed when unconscious drops, but according to the rules they have to effectively be SPD 2 for damage purposes) AND before they are unconscious nothing like suffocation happens: they get recoveries, no END loss, massively increased stun damage, all damage on attackers phases. Are you seriously telling me that you think that the choke hold and suffocation rules work the same way mechanically, or am I missing your point?

[Sean Waters]

Re: What do you think

 

Also, whilst I do enjoy a good argument, that's not the only reason I'm here. I also often present solutions to the proplems I perceive. Sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes doubtless completely unnecessary.

 

I've presented a potential costing for suffocation, either as a power build or as a new power/talent. Now I appreciate that there may be those who do not think it necessary to have a new power, but the power build is surely worth commenting on. If nothing else it will be something new to argue about.

[archermoo]

Re: What do you think

 

You may be missing the point. I'm just not agreeing that the choke hold does suffocation RULES damage. It might do suffocation damage, that's just sfx, but it is not suffocation according to the rules.

 

Sure, when you have rendered someone unconscious then you do take suffocation Body damage if you continue the hold but not like the suffocation rules, which would cause an unconscious person to take 2 Body a turn (their speed when unconscious drops, but according to the rules they have to effectively be SPD 2 for damage purposes) AND before they are unconscious nothing like suffocation happens: they get recoveries, no END loss, massively increased stun damage, all damage on attackers phases. Are you seriously telling me that you think that the choke hold and suffocation rules work the same way mechanically, or am I missing your point?

 

Actually the BODY damage is explicitly suffocation damage according to the rules. I mean KS even went and quoted them and everything. Granted prior to the target losing consciousness the damage is different than suffocation damage. But afterwords that is exactly what it is, and I'm not aware of anyone having claimed that it did suffocation damage prior to that.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What do you think

 

Actually the BODY damage is explicitly suffocation damage according to the rules. I mean KS even went and quoted them and everything. Granted prior to the target losing consciousness the damage is different than suffocation damage. But afterwords that is exactly what it is' date=' and I'm not aware of anyone having claimed that it did suffocation damage prior to that.[/quote']

 

Exactly.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think

 

Honestly, I think you guys argue just to argue. The rule book gives a direct reference from one rule to the other. Choke Hold has an explicit GOTO the Drowning rules after the target is unconscious.

 

CHOKE HOLD (page 399)

...

A character rendered unconscious by a Choke Hold can be killed by continued application of the Maneuver. After the Choke Hold has rendered the target unconscious it does 1 BODY per Phase to the target if it's maintained (See HOLDING BREATH AND DROWNING, page 424.)

 

HOLDING BREATH AND DROWNING (page 424)

A character who holds his breath does not get to Recover, even on Post-Segment 12. He also expends a minimum of 1 END per Phase. He may lower his SPD to 2 to reduce the amount of END he uses.

 

A character who runs out of END while not breathing expends STUN as END (see page 425). A character who runs out of STUN then loses BODY, drowning at -1 BODY / Phase.

...

 

 

Now, that aside, if you really feel the need for a Custom Power to "suffocate" someone faster as a Power, that is just another form of a KILLING ATTACK.

 

No, we see the need for a power that suffocates someone at PRECISELY THE SAME SPEED the existing rules for cutting off their air supply would result in. A power which prevents the target recovering, requires him to spend at least 1 END per phase, costs him 1 stun per phase if he is out of END, and finally suffocates him at 1 BOD per phase once he has run out of STUN.

 

You are solving a problem that doesn't exist.

 

Show me the quick and easy build to add the power I have described to:

 

- Change Environment (there is no breathable air in the area any more)

 

- Entangle (the sticky webbing blocks your nose and mouth until it is torn away)

 

- Force Wall (there is an invisible force bubble surrounding your head - no air can get in)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What do you think

 

No, we see the need for a power that suffocates someone at PRECISELY THE SAME SPEED the existing rules for cutting off their air supply would result in. A power which prevents the target recovering, requires him to spend at least 1 END per phase, costs him 1 stun per phase if he is out of END, and finally suffocates him at 1 BOD per phase once he has run out of STUN.

Choke or TK + Choke does that. See above.

 

Show me the quick and easy build to add the power I have described to:

 

- Change Environment (there is no breathable air in the area any more)

 

- Entangle (the sticky webbing blocks your nose and mouth until it is torn away)

 

- Force Wall (there is an invisible force bubble surrounding your head - no air can get in)

 

Oh, the usual approach to combining multiple effects applies. You take one power that does one thing and some other power that does something else and you jam them together into a compound power. If they can only be used together, you even get to apply Linked for a small point savings.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think

 

Choke or TK + Choke does that. See above.

 

OK, I must be exceptionally dense on this topic (I know, finally something we can agree on without reservation! ).

 

How do I buy the "cut off his oxygen" ability if I DO NOT have martial arts (so I will not have 10 points in maneuvers, so I cannot buy Choke Hold) and DO NOT want the ability to do NND damage along with it?

 

If we have a "suffocate" power, I can compound it in with Entangle, CE and/or Force Wall. But we don't have that power.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What do you think

 

OK, I must be exceptionally dense on this topic (I know, finally something we can agree on without reservation! ).

 

How do I buy the "cut off his oxygen" ability if I DO NOT have martial arts (so I will not have 10 points in maneuvers, so I cannot buy Choke Hold) and DO NOT want the ability to do NND damage along with it?

 

If we have a "suffocate" power, I can compound it in with Entangle, CE and/or Force Wall. But we don't have that power.

The NND damage of Choke is pre-suffocation. Its purpose is to knock the target out. The SFX is that you are forcibly denying them Oxygen to the brain, which does in fact cause people to pass out in reality so the approach isn't off in left field on this.

 

Once the target is unconscious if you keep choking them they will die in the same way that they will die if they can't breathe due to being underwater or similarly not being able to breathe.

 

The difference is that in cases where a person isn't able to breathe due to circumstance they still presumably are conscious and have some air in their lungs with which to try to extricate themselves from their situation before dying. However once they fall unconscious the effect is the same.

 

Fundamentally there are two stages to not being able to breath represented here via two different mechanics -- conscious (no REC, END then STUN loss) followed by unconscious (no STUN left, start taking BODY).

 

By knocking someone out FIRST and preventing them from breathing, you skip straight to the second stage and they start taking BODY.

 

If you are trying to replicate this approach, then logically any constant attack that first KO'd a target (with the SFX of preventing them from breathing) and then continued to prevent them from breathing would work in this regard.

 

If you don't want to use Choke Hold, which is just a maneuver wrapped around a power build, then use an NND power defined the same way instead. The outcome should be the same. It really isn't that complicated, IMO.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What do you think

 

Actually the BODY damage is explicitly suffocation damage according to the rules. I mean KS even went and quoted them and everything. Granted prior to the target losing consciousness the damage is different than suffocation damage. But afterwords that is exactly what it is' date=' and I'm not aware of anyone having claimed that it did suffocation damage prior to that.[/quote']

 

The way I read...After the Choke Hold has rendered the target unconscious it does 1 BODY per Phase to the target if it's maintained...doesn't suggest, despite the page reference, that damage occurs on the target's phases, but that is almost an irrelevance. Once you've got a target unconscious, killing them is a doddle if that is what you want to do and you can do it much quicker than with the suffocation rules, so what really matters is the ability to suffocate someone BEFORE they are unconscious. Also there's nothing to indicate that someone made unconscious by a choke hold loses their recoveries. I really don't think it is the same at all. You may think otherwise. Like I said, that bit is almost an irrelevance

 

Now just to be the pedantic so and so you know I am, here's KS's initial contribution, in full, for the sake of awareness:

 

There's already a model in place for "suffocating" people -- mechanically it works as an NND -- it's called "CHOKE".

 

 

Just FYI.

 

No pre or post distinction in the post, nor in the preceeding posts indicating that was what was important here.

 

Still, you do accept that choke does not do 'suffocation damage' prior to unconsciousness, so we are still left with nothing in the system, other than a scratch build (see above several posts) to do 'suffocation' with.

 

Mechanically, choke is a poor 'general suffocation ability' anyway. It requires a martial arts package, for one, which may well be utterly inappropriate for the character. It could be bent into working shape (perhaps) for the application of force to the throat by more arbitrary and jarring arbitrary rule additions, but what of simply removing the air from around the target? It doesn't do that well at all - it doesn't matter how strong you are if there is nothing to breathe.

 

So. We agree choke is not a useful way to do suffocation, at least whilst the target is conscious.

 

That means we need a 'suffocation ability', be it a scratch build, a new power, an adder for existing powers or a talent-like build. Or we need to assume that we have found something Hero can't do, and does not matter enough to emulate.

 

That is what we are discussing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What do you think

 

The NND damage of Choke is pre-suffocation. Its purpose is to knock the target out. The SFX is that you are forcibly denying them Oxygen to the brain, which does in fact cause people to pass out in reality so the approach isn't off in left field on this.

 

Once the target is unconscious if you keep choking them they will die in the same way that they will die if they can't breathe due to being underwater or similarly not being able to breathe.

 

The difference is that in cases where a person isn't able to breathe due to circumstance they still presumably are conscious and have some air in their lungs with which to try to extricate themselves from their situation before dying. However once they fall unconscious the effect is the same.

 

Fundamentally there are two stages to not being able to breath represented here via two different mechanics -- conscious (no REC, END then STUN loss) followed by unconscious (no STUN left, start taking BODY).

 

By knocking someone out FIRST and preventing them from breathing, you skip straight to the second stage and they start taking BODY.

 

If you are trying to replicate this approach, then logically any constant attack that first KO'd a target (with the SFX of preventing them from breathing) and then continued to prevent them from breathing would work in this regard.

 

If you don't want to use Choke Hold, which is just a maneuver wrapped around a power build, then use an NND power defined the same way instead. The outcome should be the same. It really isn't that complicated, IMO.

 

So what you are saying is that Choke Hold doesn't so suffocation damage to a conscious target?

 

We agree.

 

Now we need something that does. Care to contribute?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What do you think

 

So what you are saying is that Choke Hold doesn't so suffocation damage to a conscious target?

 

We agree.

 

Now we need something that does. Care to contribute?

 

Hey...real quick...don't ever put words in my mouth, please. Seriously. I am perfectly capable of speaking for myself and saying what I mean without your assistance or contrivance. That's a very quick way to go from friendly to not friendly with me and there is no need for this to get ugly unless you want to take it in that direction.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What do you think

 

On a completely different tack, I think that a Body drain is probably a better real world fit for oxygen starvation damage: any damage you may have taken is likely to come back quickly once oxygen is restored. Might need a slightly erduced fade rate, maybe 5/minute. It certainly isn't going to take you months to get over it because there is very little tissue damage.

 

You MAY have permanent brain damage but we can use the disabling rules to model that if you really, really, really feel the need.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What do you think

 

Hey...real quick...don't ever put words in my mouth' date=' please. Seriously. I am perfectly capable of speaking for myself and saying what I mean without your assistance or contrivance. That's a very quick way to go from friendly to not friendly with me and there is no need for this to get ugly unless you want to take it in that direction.[/quote']

 

I won't get into anything personal in public, and I'm sorry if you are upset. I have no desire to go to not friendly.

 

Do you agree that choke hold does not emulate the suffocation rules for a conscious target? Or should I just walk away from this one?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What do you think

 

The way I read...After the Choke Hold has rendered the target unconscious it does 1 BODY per Phase to the target if it's maintained...doesn't suggest, despite the page reference, that damage occurs on the target's phases, but that is almost an irrelevance. Once you've got a target unconscious, killing them is a doddle if that is what you want to do and you can do it much quicker than with the suffocation rules, so what really matters is the ability to suffocate someone BEFORE they are unconscious. Also there's nothing to indicate that someone made unconscious by a choke hold loses their recoveries. I really don't think it is the same at all. You may think otherwise. Like I said, that bit is almost an irrelevance

 

Now just to be the pedantic so and so you know I am, here's KS's initial contribution, in full, for the sake of awareness:

 

 

 

No pre or post distinction in the post, nor in the preceeding posts indicating that was what was important here.

 

Still, you do accept that choke does not do 'suffocation damage' prior to unconsciousness, so we are still left with nothing in the system, other than a scratch build (see above several posts) to do 'suffocation' with.

 

Mechanically, choke is a poor 'general suffocation ability' anyway. It requires a martial arts package, for one, which may well be utterly inappropriate for the character. It could be bent into working shape (perhaps) for the application of force to the throat by more arbitrary and jarring arbitrary rule additions, but what of simply removing the air from around the target? It doesn't do that well at all - it doesn't matter how strong you are if there is nothing to breathe.

 

So. We agree choke is not a useful way to do suffocation, at least whilst the target is conscious.

 

That means we need a 'suffocation ability', be it a scratch build, a new power, an adder for existing powers or a talent-like build. Or we need to assume that we have found something Hero can't do, and does not matter enough to emulate.

 

That is what we are discussing.

 

Ok, clearly you are misunderstanding what I have posted, what the rules say, and seem to be arguing from a position that is based on some fundamentally different definition of game terms and concepts than what is presented in the book.

 

At this point, I think you are completely in left field on the topic, but I have entirely lost patience with you after the tone and approach of your last few posts and am no longer going to waste my time engaging in endless back and forth on it with you.

 

Do as you like, and good luck to you.

[Vulcan]

Re: What do you think

 

My opinion is that Choke Hold shouldn't be a martial maneuver at all.

 

Of course, a GM could handwave suffocation on an appropritate NND build. But a power that stops REC, forces a 1 END per phase loss, and eventually causes the target to pass out is... pretty useless if you ask me. Realistic? Sure. But unless you catch the target low on END and STUN, it'll take too long to be useful in my opinion. The target will likely take you out with conventional attacks long before this becomes a serious problem.

 

If you aboslutely must have an accurate build, supress REC would likely be the best bet, based on the FX of suffocation. The 1 END/phase will likely be overwhelmed by the END spent trying to stop the power in the first place, and the GM can handwave the BODY once the target is unconscious. That's what the 1st and 2nd "principle for interpreting the HEROS System Rules" is there for.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think

 

Once the target is unconscious if you keep choking them they will die in the same way that they will die if they can't breathe due to being underwater or similarly not being able to breathe.

 

Fundamentally there are two stages to not being able to breath represented here via two different mechanics -- conscious (no REC, END then STUN loss) followed by unconscious (no STUN left, start taking BODY).

 

I want a power that does not start with the target being unconscious. I want a power that replicates first your first stage and then your second stage - a power that provides the effects of being denied what you need to breathe. You keep telling me this is very easy. Where is the build that:

 

- denies the target the ability to recover

- removes first one END per phase, then one STUN per phase when all END is gone, and finally one BOD per phase when the target is unconscious.

 

If you are trying to replicate this approach' date=' then logically any constant attack that first KO'd a target (with the SFX of preventing them from breathing) and then continued to prevent them from breathing would work in this regard.[/quote']

 

This does not start by removing END, nor does it deny the target the ability to recover. What power would cause a target to lose 1 END (1/2 of one character points) on each of THEIR, not MY, phases? Even that small subcomponent of suffocation of the target has no ready build within our toolbox. Why is it wrong to want that tool in the toolbox, rather than using a chokehold that does STUN too fast while ignoring END and REC?

 

I'm not just looking for an OUTCOME. I want to get to that outcome in PRECISELY THE SAME WAY as the "lacking air" environmental rules get there. A target who is actually drowning and a target struck by this power should have exactly the same results - no difference at all in what they lose, when they lose it or how fast they lose it.

 

If this is easy to build, show me. If it's difficult to build, hey, show me that instead. This is not that uncommon an effect in the source material. It should be possible to build it in Hero using a construct no more complex than, say, 5e Regeneration.

[Vulcan]

Re: What do you think

 

Like I said, Supress REC. Eventually he runs out of END, then STUN, then the GM handwaves the BODY because of FX and your ability to 'coup de grace' him at any time.

 

It's not really practical, though. Because while you're supressing his REC he's beating the ever-living crud out of you. Hope you can hold out until he passes out. That 1 END loss is likely negligible amid the END cost of the beat-down he's putting on you in the process.

 

But if you really must have it, get the GM to allow you to buy a 1-pip Drain END (max drain around 200 AP or so just to make sure you get all of his END and STUN) linked to the supress END. Then a 1d6 Drain BODY....

 

So why do we need a specific power for this again? The tools are all there, people just need to use them.

 

Besides, an E-Blast or HA NND is more practical, because it doesn't depend on waiting for the target to run out of END, and might even stun him. This way you might actually get to finish strangling them before they kill you.

 

Of course, for an NPC I'd go with the Supress for much the same reasons. Give the hero a little more time to do the hero thing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What do you think

 

In a 'one on one' battle, suffocation alone is not going to win BUT the rules say that you take no recoveries. That could win the battle if you are operating in a team or you stick a continuous suffocation attack on someone and hit them with something else - no recoveries means that the battle is over much quicker and that is what a suffocation attack would be used for tactically. How many times have you, or a villain, got to PS12 in single stun figures and survived the next attack JUST because you took a recovery. That is the power and majesty of this sort of ability, and it is something that Hero does not do well at present - the only way I can think of is a REC adjustment, and that is problematic because you have no idea how much RERC the oppoentns you may face will have so you need to build in a deal of redundancy, at least in superheroic games, OR sacrifice a great deal of realism. That is why a paid for suffocation power seems attractive to me and, I suspect, some others.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think

 

Like I said' date=' Supress REC. Eventually he runs out of END, then STUN, then the GM handwaves the BODY because of FX and your ability to 'coup de grace' him at any time.[/quote']

 

But we don't want to coup de grace him - we want him to lose BOD at the same rate a drowning person does.

 

It's not really practical' date=' though. Because while you're supressing his REC he's beating the ever-living crud out of you. Hope you can hold out until he [i']passes[/i] out. That 1 END loss is likely negligible amid the END cost of the beat-down he's putting on you in the process.

 

Gee, maybe that suggests it shouldn't be as expensive, huh?

 

But if you really must have it, get the GM to allow you to buy a 1-pip Drain END (max drain around 200 AP or so just to make sure you get all of his END and STUN) linked to the supress END. Then a 1d6 Drain BODY....

 

So why do we need a specific power for this again? The tools are all there, people just need to use them.

 

So build it and cost it out. I keep hearing how very simple this is, but I am not seeing the build.

 

You can build a Force Field and Armor out of PD and Damage Resistance quite easly. Let's ditch those powers.

 

With "reduced reuse time", it's easy to build Regen out of Healing, so everyone quit whining about a separate Regen power.

 

Why do we have Ego Blast or Based on ECV? Give us an advantage that changes the CV ONLY to be based on Ego, and we can buy an EB, AVLD Mental Defense, Invisible to 2 Sense Groups. LoS Range, Targeted and dodged with Ego. Then we can ditch Ego Blast.

 

Ditch Transfer- it's a combination of Drain and Aid. Get rid of Suppress - it's limited Drain. Scrap Absorption - it's just Aid with some limitations and a Trigger.

 

We used to build Resurrection with a Summon structure and some handwaving. Should we scrap the Ressurection adder? Regrow Limbs? Transform.

 

There are lots of abilities we would never dream of removing from the game that could, if removed, be simulated with other abilities. But we also want a reasonably straightforward approach to build reasonably common abilities.

 

So let's put in a build, an adder or a power that emulates this fairly common ability in a straightforward manner.

[Vulcan]

Re: What do you think

 

Welcome to my 1,000th post!

 

The problem I see with suffocation as a separate power is that it is a specific special effect. And HEROS is not supposed to be about powers that cover specific special effects.

 

Here's your suffocation build (I've kept limitations to a minimum to allow the maximum number potential builds; limit it yourself to suit how you're suffocating them, be it with a FF bubble around the head or flooding their lungs with water or anything in between):

 

Suppress REC, 20d6 (standard effect: 60 points), NND (appropriate Life Support, +1), 200 AP; Real cost 200 pts. *This covers everyone up to 30 REC; this can be adjusted up or down to suit campaign REC levels*

PLUS

Drain END 1 point, Trigger (Phase after Suppress hits target, +1/4) *so we don't have to spend further actions on it*, AEH One-Hex Accurate (+1/2) *so we don't miss*, Continuous, Delayed Return Rate (5 AP/5 Minutes, +1/2), 10 AP; Linked to Suppress (-1/2), END lost recovers normally (per Recovery rules) if Suppress Ends (-1/2); Real cost 5 pts.

PLUS

Drain STUN 1 point, Trigger (Phase after Suppress hits target, +1/4), AEH One-Hex Accurate (+1/2), Continuous, Delayed Return Rate (5 AP/5 Minutes, +1/2), 10 AP; Linked to Suppress (-1/2), STUN lost recovers normally (per Recovery rules) if Suppress Ends (-1/2), Target must be out of END (-1/2); Real cost 4 pts.

PLUS

Drain BODY 1d6 (Standard Effect 3 points), Trigger (Phase after Suppress hits target, +1/4), AEH One-Hex Accurate (+1/2), Continuous, Delayed Return Rate (5 AP/5 Minutes, +1/2), 32 AP; Linked to Suppress (-1/2), Target must be out of END and STUN (-1); Real Cost 11 pts.

TOTAL

Active Points 252, Real cost 220 pts.

 

Expensive? HELL YES! To totally supress someone's REC so that they CANNOT take recoveries should be expensive! Not so much because of it's lethality (an equivalent NND would be far more effective), but because it's frustrating and not fun to play against.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What do you think

 

 

Congratulations on your 1000th post.

 

One of the useful things that has come out of this discussion is that I've realised I'd like to see a power that can damage END, just like we damage STUN now. Perhaps we could have a +0 advantage 'Damage to END' normal attacks? With a (say) +1/4 or +1/2 advantage for 'damages END and STUN.

 

The reason it would be useful si that END is the only characteristic other than STUN and BODY that recovers using REC.

 

Now, as you point out, it is expensive to build a 'suffocation' build that covers all the bases, primarily because you have no idea what REC you will be facing. That is one of the things that makes a 'flat rate adder/power' an attraction, although I acknowledge that flat rate powers tend to problems with scaling.

 

As to the 'power' being a sfx build, I disagree - I think that 'respiratory impediment' is quite a broad category and could cover having your airways blocked, having breathing gasses removed from your environment, choking, chemical action on your system to prevent oxygen uptake, paralysis of the diaphragm, drowning, vaccuum generation. You might consider it a meta sfx, certainly, but it still covers enough ground to be considered a seperate power/adder or at least 'talent build' IMO.

 

One way to do this, without draining or adjusting REC, is as a straight damage build, at least if you adopt the above 'can damage END' advantage. if the damage done to STUN and END is at least REC+SPD of target thent the effect is as if no recoveries are being taken.

 

2d6 EB NND (do not need to breathe) Continuous 0 END Does STUN AND END damage (+3) 40 points

 

Custom limitation DAMAGE cannot exceed 1 end OR stun (only if target has no END) on each of target's phases PLUS target's REC (applied PS12), say -1/2 27 real points

 

PLUS

 

1d6 EB NND (do not need to breathe) DOES BODY Continuous 0 END Does STUN AND END damage (+4) 20 points

 

Custom limitation DAMAGE cannot exceed 1 stun/end on each of target's phases PLUS target's REC (applied PS12), say -1/2 AND

Body damage only applies when target has no END or STUN, and cannot exceed target's SPD/turn -1/2 10 real points

 

TOTAL 37 points real

 

 

So you do (even on standard values) 9 x your SPD as a maximum damage per turn: say you are SPD 4, in a superhero game, that would be 36 damage per turn, which should be enough to cover up to a 12 SPD, 24 REC opponent. If it is a heroic game and you are SPD 2, then you do up to 18 damage per turn, enough to cover a 4 SPD, 14 REC opponent - in either case there is some natural scaling effect, and if you did not feel it was enough you could add another 1d6 to the first part (upping the cost by 20 active/13 real).

 

The target takes END damage every phase and PS12 takes stun and end equal to their REC (cancelling their REC, in effect). When teh END is gone they take stun and when that is gone too they start taking Body (and their SPD can be assumed to dop to 2 when they fall unconscious, so no need to worry about high SPD opponents not taking enough damage).

 

Again, worked out this way, the cost comes in to the 40 to 50 range, and the advantage of this build is that it scales across genres - you do need a new advantage, but that is a relatively minor change.

 

I'd argue that, as a 'new' power or adder, based on possible builds, 40 point is about right. I do appreciate I've been arguing against a pure damage based approach to suffocation, but this is tailored to fit the system rules for suffocation, so I'm pretty happy with it.

 

Of course this does not cover EVERYTHING that suffocation can do. There may be a sort of voice 'darkness/flash' that runs while the power is in place, but, as that does not fit every sfx (if you change all the air to nitrogen the target cannot breathe but can still talk normally), I leave that for individual builds.

 

I tell you where this could be useful if you were a 'realism' character builder - anyone with fireball powers could take this and have it as a secondary effect of their fireball - it uses up the oxygen in the target area, and it is only 'naturally' replentished by airflow after (say) a turn.