D&D Spontaneous Casters

[Armitage]

First off let me say, I love Killer Shrike's D&D to Fantasy Hero Conversions.

 

However, I've never been really comfortable with the spontaneous spellcasting adaptation for Sorcerers and Bards. There's a little two much house-ruling for my comfort to get it to work.

-Allowing Continuing Charges as a Limitation on a slot in a Multipower that already has standard Charges, rather than the Advantage described in the rules.

-An arbitrary -1/2 to -4 1/2 Limitation to keep the cost of multiple Multipowers from getting unbalancing.

 

Unless I'm missing it, there doesn't seem to be a way to replicate using higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells. But that could easily be done as another house rule.

It doesn't really allow for spells that become more powerful as the character becomes more powerful, unless you increase the size of a Multipower until it's the same size as another Multipower, or move a spell into another level's Multipower.

It short-changes spontaneous casters on some of the versatility that Shrike's conversion gives prepared casters. There's nothing in his rules (that I could find) preventing a Wizard or Cleric from using their VPP to prepare nothing but a few high level spells at the expense of all their lower level spells. A spontaneous caster doesn't gain anything comparable from the conversion.

 

Plus, a 1st-level Wizard converted with Shrike's VPP system will have more spell's available than a 1st-level Sorcerer, and it's supposed to be the other way around.

 

I've recently come up with my own version. It sort of converts D&D spontaneous casting into a spell point system.

The caster has a single Multipower with a Reserve equal to the Active Points of the most powerful spell he can cast. This allows lower level spells to have their Active points increased as the character becomes more powerful. It will also allow lower level spells to have longer Continuing Charges as the character gets more powerful.

For a primary spellcaster (one with full access to all levels of spells, e.g. Sorcerer) the Multipower has (Reserve/1.5) Charges as the default. The player can, of course, change this if desired.

For a secondary spellcaster (one with limited access to fewer levels of spells, e.g. Bard) the Multipower has (Reserve/3) Charges.

Each spell the character knows is an ultra slot in the Multipower. Each spell above a Cantrip (>15 AP) has Requires [x] Charges Per Use, where x is the spell's level +1. So a 1st-level spell requires 2 Charges and a 9th-level spell requires 10 Charges.

 

Much like Shrike's VPP prepared casting conversion, 1st-level characters can cast far more spells than their D&D counterparts, with the balance reversing around 10th-level.

 

1st-level Wizard

30-point Variable Power Pool. Can prepare 90 Real Points of spells.

Assuming an average of 5 Real points per spell level per spell, he can prepare 18 Cantrips, 9 1st-level spells, or any combination thereof.

 

1st-level Sorcerer

30-point Multipower, 20 Charges.

He can cast 20 Cantrips, 10 1st-level spells, or any combination thereof.

 

17th-level Wizard

150-point Variable Power Pool. Can prepare 450 Real Points of spells.

Assuming an average of 5 Real points per spell level per spell, he can prepare 90 Cantrips, 9 9th-level spells, or any combination thereof.

 

18th-level Sorcerer

150-point Multipower, 100 Charges.

He can cast 100 Cantrips, 10 9th-level spells, or any combination thereof.

 

The only drawback I see is that the Charges Advantage makes the spontaneous casting Multipower significantly more expensive than the prepared casting Variable Power Pool.

 

Opinions?

? ?

[shadowcat1313]

Re: D&D Spontaneous Casters

 

nice work, I hadnt given a lot of thought to the issue since I dont play 3rd edition much. how does this affect some magic items? Staff of Power/Magi come to mind specifically

[Killer Shrike]

Re: D&D Spontaneous Casters

 

Wow, a lot to parse here...let me try to work thru it and recall the thought process behind the spontaneous casting (i wrote it up years and years ago)...

 

 

First off let me say' date=' I love Killer Shrike's D&D to Fantasy Hero Conversions.

 

However, I've never been really comfortable with the spontaneous spellcasting adaptation for Sorcerers and Bards. There's a little two much house-ruling for my comfort to get it to work.

 

For starters, yes, its a big system hack. The spontaneous model of D&D 3e doesn't map into the HERO System very well, and I took some liberties.

-Allowing Continuing Charges as a Limitation on a slot in a Multipower that already has standard Charges, rather than the Advantage described in the rules.

 

 

However, to address these two points...Charges is always a LIMITATION technically which is why its listed under Limitations in the rulebook, however it is unique in that it can become an Advantage if it becomes better than 0 END, etc. (Charges never becomes an Advantage when applied to powers that already don't cost END and are Persistent).

 

The Continuing Charges concept is not a separate modifier, it is a adjustment to the Charges modifier, with a value that varies based upon the duration of the charge. In HD it's annotated as a modifier value under Charges, but if you check the rulebook its really measured as minus levels on the Charges table (and HD functions properly in this regard; differing only in how its presented for purposes of consistency).

 

More relevantly, there is nothing custom or house ruled about how Continuing Charges work in my spontaneous casting guidelines -- they function exactly per the rules. If there is any confusion around that, its a miscommunication on my part and / or a misunderstanding on your part. If you could reference the text that led you to believe otherwise I'll reread it for clarity and change it if it's misleading. I really don't recall mentioning anything specific around this though.

 

However there is a house ruled behavior related to charges used (just not around continuing charges), which is that normally it is not allowed to apply Charges to BOTH the reserve AND the slots. However, it makes sense in the context of how I've structured the Vancian model around charges, and the price discount is marginal since all the spells are in Ultraslots so I allowed it. Its a non-issue IMO.

 

-An arbitrary -1/2 to -4 1/2 Limitation to keep the cost of multiple Multipowers from getting unbalancing.

 

 

If you mean arbitrary in the ancient sense of "decided by an arbiter" (me), then yes. If you mean arbitrary in its modern sense of "lacking a rational system or basis", then no.

 

The values are graded deliberately and I played around with different approaches and different values at the time. The razor I used was to convert several spontaneous casters into the model pretty cleanly (within the larger context of the conversion as a whole), and find a good point placement where the costs involved were acceptable / reasonable and represented the value of having such stacked MP's. I did side by side comparisons of multiple approaches and settled on the Spontaneous Casting Discount at the values given.

 

Perhaps you feel its arbitrary because it doesn't have a long winded explanation around it in the text; but its really a short hand notation summarizing all the behavior of the stacked MP's given similar to other such complex lims like Ritual and Window of Opportunity. It's a handle representing the fact that the character is basically paying for the Reserve ALL OVER AGAIN each time they buy a new higher level MP.

 

Consider, that by the letter of the HERO System rules, you can have one big fat MP and put as many slots as you can afford into it as long as the Active Points are equal to or less than the MP Reserve.

 

In the Spontaneous casting model however, tight bands of 15 AP are enforced, there's a finite limit on how many slots are allowed per MP, and the character is not using the "bottom" end of their reserve -- they are basically just using the top 15 AP for spells of that level. Basically the concept is foreign to the HERO System, and the Spontaneous Casting Discount Limitation simply acts as a tool to seat it better.

 

In other words, a character with 3rd level spells under this model as a 0 level MP with 15 reserve, a 1st level MP with 30 reserve, a 2nd level MP with 45 reserve, and a 3rd level MP with 60 reserve. But do they really have the equivalent of 150 reserve, which is what they would pay for sans some limitation? No. Clearly, the arrangement is not as good as a 150 point reserve in some significant ways.

 

The Discount shaves the costs down considerably and brings the total cost (ignoring other Lims) down to 71 points which is a much closer representation of effect...the character basically has a big 60 reserve AP with some extra utility (he can run a cascade of weaker slots simultaneously) and some unusual internal structuring; +11 points (in this case) is not unreasonable; +15 would probably be a bit closer but considering the model its acceptable in my estimation.

 

Adding 4th level spells with a 75 reserve brings the cost up to 108...so the premium for the cascaded MP has risen to +33 points over just having a single big MP. The next jump to 5th level spells with a 90 reserve brings the cost up to 153 and the premium to +63. And so forth and so on.

 

There is a rationale and a progression behind it, and its not random or whim-driven, in other words.

 

Unless I'm missing it, there doesn't seem to be a way to replicate using higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells. But that could easily be done as another house rule.

The GM can allow it if he chooses to; just mark off a charge from a higher level reserve and a charge off the slot used. I made no mention of it one way or the other as I have no strong opinion on it, but could certainly add a paragraph on it. The character is basically overpaying for the effect (by expending a charge that could power a more potent effect) if they do that, so its not unbalancing per se.

 

 

It doesn't really allow for spells that become more powerful as the character becomes more powerful, unless you increase the size of a Multipower until it's the same size as another Multipower, or move a spell into another level's Multipower.

 

This is true of all the Vancian spells systems I've done -- in D&D a spell _might_ become more powerful as the caster levels, but the spell remains the same level. The HERO System doesnt have caster levels, and if an effect becomes more powerful its AP increases which would make it a "higher level spell" per se.

 

However, this is easily resolved by just bumping the an improved effect up to a higher level MP (assuming there is one).

 

The conversion never claims to be exact; where the two systems don't line up I favor the HERO System and take an approach that makes sense in HERO terms.

 

BTW, the alternative, which I opted NOT to take after playing around with it in my earlier AD&D to HERO System conversion, is to buy the effect at the level allowed by the AP and then put a limitation on it that it functions less well than that until the caster meets various milestones (such as total character points, highest spell level, whatever), thus the spell "becomes more powerful" as the character "levels up", but in reality the spell is really crippled and becomes less crippled up to its maximum effect. This is such a pain in the arse to administer and annotate that its just not worth it IMO.

 

It short-changes spontaneous casters on some of the versatility that Shrike's conversion gives prepared casters. There's nothing in his rules (that I could find) preventing a Wizard or Cleric from using their VPP to prepare nothing but a few high level spells at the expense of all their lower level spells.

 

True on the nothing to prevent line -- the GM could certainly rule that in keeping with the source material. I chose for reasons of my own preference to not mandate it.

 

In practice however, a player that chose to do so would be making the decision to have very few spells per day as the Real Costs of more powerful "high level spells" are typically substantially higher. Also, there are a ton of very important utility effects at the low and mid spell levels that it would be foolish to overlook in general in favor of big bloated higher level spells. It becomes a question of scale and competitiveness.

 

Also, if a Wizard / Cleric / any kind of Prepared caster knows they are going in to a particular situation then yes they have a clearcut advantage -- they can prepare spells from their largely unrestricted spell list (assuming they know the spells), and go in perfectly...ahem...prepared and blow their wad in one go. In practice though they _don't know_ what they are going to get into in a given day, need to plan for various eventualities and common occurrences, and the potential for multiple encounters. In general the SPONTANEOUS casters have MORE SPELLS ON TAP while the PREPARED casters have MORE POTENTIAL SPELLS KNOWN but FEWER PREPARED AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT. Emphasis for effect only.

 

 

A spontaneous caster doesn't gain anything comparable from the conversion.

Sure they do. The Prepared caster is casting from a very limited VPP with a relatively narrow footprint. They have to make very tough decisions around what spells they prepare each day and have a great deal of pressure towards economy; every spell they prepare has a strong opportunity cost involved. The Prepared caster can afford to have a deeper catalog of possible spells since their Known Spell List is roomy, but in practice they will tend to have to focus on multi-purpose utility effects that are useful in many situations in addition to any specialized effects.

 

Spontaneous casters suffer from no such pressure. They have their entire catalog of spells available to them at need and are much more toolboxy. The HERO System puts a premium on in-combat flexibility, and the spontaneous casters benefit from this built in bias far more than prepared casters.

 

Plus, a 1st-level Wizard converted with Shrike's VPP system will have more spell's available than a 1st-level Sorcerer, and it's supposed to be the other way around.

 

This depends entirely on what spells the Wizard chooses to prepare, and other factors. As an aside, attached is a graph I did a long time ago comparing the costs involved between prepared (wizard), spontaneous (sorcerer), and gestalt (magni). Prepared is cheaper, because its also the most limited. The HERO System favors flexibility in its costing -- it ASSUMES some flexibility and allows even more flexibility at a premium and prices accordingly; things that start flexible and then get gimped cost less. D&D is the opposite; it assumes inflexibility and anything that allows flexibility is usually awarded as a special feature limited to a particular class or some other criteria. When moving between the two systems this (and some other) underlying assumption causes some power shifts.

 

In practice, having done multiple characters of both spontaneous and prepared characters at various levels of power, they are very competitive with each other at specific point ranges. Each approach has its pros and cons. Personally, I favor the spontaneous model since I find that it's flexibility is much more tactical and suits the HERO System's tactical approach better, whereas the prepared model is much more strategic, but both approaches have merit.

 

As an aside, here is a high-level direct comparison. I took the Elementalist (Spontaneous model) Kjar Kvarensen from a past campaign and did a version of him as a Prepared model caster:

 

Kjar (Spontaneous)

Kjar (Prepared)

Kjar (Prepared Spell List)

[Armitage]

Re: D&D Spontaneous Casters

 

Charges is always a LIMITATION technically which is why its listed under Limitations in the rulebook, however it is unique in that it can become an Advantage if it becomes better than 0 END, etc. (Charges never becomes an Advantage when applied to powers that already don't cost END and are Persistent).

 

The Continuing Charges concept is not a separate modifier, it is a adjustment to the Charges modifier, with a value that varies based upon the duration of the charge. In HD it's annotated as a modifier value under Charges, but if you check the rulebook its really measured as minus levels on the Charges table (and HD functions properly in this regard; differing only in how its presented for purposes of consistency).

 

In this case, I was referring to H5R, p. 321. Multipowers and how Charges function in them.

 

"If a character has Charges for a Multipower reserve, he may want to make one of the slots function as if Charges applied to it were Continuing Charges. To do this, he calculates the value of the Continuing Charges by subtracting the value of the Charges on the reserve from the standard value of the same number of Continuing Charges. Then he applies the remainder to the slot as an Advantage (or Limitation, if it is one).

Example: A Multipower has 32 Charges (+1/4) on its reserve. One slot is Darkness, which the character wants to last for 1 Turn. Normally, 32 Charges lasting 1 Turn each is a +3/4 Advantage. So, +3/4 - +1/4 = a +1/2 Advantage on the slot."

 

Although, to be fair, this wasn't in 5E. It was in the 5E FAQ and then got put into 5ER. And you said you did your conversion years ago.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: D&D Spontaneous Casters

 

In this case, I was referring to H5R, p. 321. Multipowers and how Charges function in them.

 

"If a character has Charges for a Multipower reserve, he may want to make one of the slots function as if Charges applied to it were Continuing Charges. To do this, he calculates the value of the Continuing Charges by subtracting the value of the Charges on the reserve from the standard value of the same number of Continuing Charges. Then he applies the remainder to the slot as an Advantage (or Limitation, if it is one).

Example: A Multipower has 32 Charges (+1/4) on its reserve. One slot is Darkness, which the character wants to last for 1 Turn. Normally, 32 Charges lasting 1 Turn each is a +3/4 Advantage. So, +3/4 - +1/4 = a +1/2 Advantage on the slot."

 

Although, to be fair, this wasn't in 5E. It was in the 5E FAQ and then got put into 5ER. And you said you did your conversion years ago.

 

It seems like you are concerned that the charges on the _RESERVE_ don't reflect the idea that the slots might be Continuing Charges. That is a bit different from when I wrote the system up, but on reflection it doesn't strike me as significant / falls well within my "no big deal" tolerance. In other words, considering the nature of what is being modeled and the fact that the charges carry their own definition of Charges, I don't feel the need to alter the approach to require the MP's to carry Continuing on their Charges too. That does really ugly things to the cost for effect and I'm happy with the costing in general so I have no motivation to tinker with it to accommodate the rules revision.

 

On a side note I've said before my main frustration with 5e / 5er has been the constant proliferation of FAQ entires and rules revisions that invalidate older work. A big advantage to 4e for me was that a) the actual rules were thin and more was left to the GM's discretion and c) the rules didn't change. It's very hard to publish and maintain a large body of work when the underlying assumptions and stakes in the ground keep changing and moving -- but that's just my personal gripe; I'm sure that most people prefer the added rulings