Vehicle/Base construction question

[Dragon-D1]

I recently picked up Hero 5th ed Revised (late, I know) and noticed that the rules for Vehicles/Bases says that when determining the point at which the cost for the Vehicle/Base goes from 1/5 to 1/1 is the point when the Vehicle/Base totals more points than the buying character, and here's the important part - including the Vehicle/Base's disadvantages. However, the example given seems to break this rule. Am I missing something or is there a misprint? (I checked the PDF version, the Character Creation Handbook, and the Errata hoping the problem would be clarified, but no luck)

[jtelson]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

Hmmm, if we're talking about the example on page 85 I see your confusion but I would say that the example is correct -The phrase "do not include the points the Vehicle or Base recieves from Disadvantages" is the clincher.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

I want to build a vehicle.

 

I decide to give it 0 Base Points.

 

I then pile on 300 points of Disadvantages.

 

Is it right that I pay 0 points for this vehicle?

[jtelson]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

I'm pretty sure that you need to pay at least 1 point so you'd end up with a 305 point vehicle that exploded in contact with Air, water, or Vacuum, was hunted by all sentient beings in the known universe and fed off the driver and passengers.

 

More seriously a vehicle with significant disadvantes particularly when you include hunteds can be a serious liability, perhaps sufficiently to make it worth next to nothing.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

. . . Don't Vehicles ge the same Base Points as a Character of the campaign? Say, 75 points for Standard Heroic, and 200 for Standard Superheroic.

[jtelson]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

. . . Don't Vehicles ge the same Base Points as a Character of the campaign? Say' date=' 75 points for Standard Heroic, and 200 for Standard Superheroic.[/quote']

 

No, their Base Points are set by the point expenditure of the players.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

If that's the case, there's no incentive to take Disadvantages on a vehicle, at all, until after it hits your point total. So, if I'm a 350 point character, I should spend 70 points and get a 350 point vehicle, with no Disadvantages. And at that point there's no incentive for me to take any Disadvantages, at all, because I myself now have to pay 1 point for every point worth of Disadvantages on the vehicle.

[jtelson]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

You're assuming you want to spend 70 points for a 350 point vehicle. With disads you would spend less since you don't pay any points for the disadvantages on the vehicle. Once you pay your 70 points for a 350 point vehicle disads can bring the value above 350 points.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

You're assuming you want to spend 70 points for a 350 point vehicle. With disads you would spend less since you don't pay any points for the disadvantages on the vehicle. Once you pay your 70 points for a 350 point vehicle disads can bring the value above 350 points.

 

In which case I buy a 300 point vehicle with 300 points of Disadvantages, with a net cost of 0, and get it for free.

 

Which is it?

[jtelson]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

In which case I buy a 300 point vehicle with 300 points of Disadvantages, with a net cost of 0, and get it for free.

 

Which is it?

 

You have to spend at least one point in order to aquire anything. So 1 point for a 5 point vehicle plus 300 points worth of disads for a 305 point vehicle

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

You have to spend at least one point in order to aquire anything. So 1 point for a 5 point vehicle plus 300 points worth of disads for a 305 point vehicle

 

Of course, if the character were a 300-point character, then he'd actually get a 301 point vehicle by spending 1 point for a vehicle with 300 points' of disadvantages. Maybe he will use that extra point to give the vehicle some useful ability, but I doubt it. For zero points he gets nothing.

[jtelson]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

Of course' date=' if the character were a 300-point character, then he'd actually get a 30[u']1[/u] point vehicle by spending 1 point for a vehicle with 300 points' of disadvantages. Maybe he will use that extra point to give the vehicle some useful ability, but I doubt it. For zero points he gets nothing.

 

No it's 305, once again see page 85 and the phrase "do not include the points the Vehicle or Base recieves from Disadvantages"

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

No it's 305' date=' once again see page 85 and the phrase "do not include the points the Vehicle or Base recieves from Disadvantages"[/quote']

 

You're right. I was mistaken. I still must stress that zero points gets you bupkis.

[Dragon-D1]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

Hmmm, if we're talking about the example on page 85 I see your confusion but I would say that the example is correct -The phrase "do not include the points the Vehicle or Base recieves from Disadvantages" is the clincher.

this is an exact excerpt from the PDF text:

 

"However, this cost only applies as long as the Base's or Vehicle's total points (including Disadvantages) are less than or equal to the total Character Points of the character buying the Vehicle or Base. After this the character must pay 1 Character Point for each Character Point possessed by the Base or Vehicle."

 

So, it seems to say that the disadvantages of the vehicle count towards the cost determination.

[jtelson]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

this is an exact excerpt from the PDF text:

 

"However, this cost only applies as long as the Base's or Vehicle's total points (including Disadvantages) are less than or equal to the total Character Points of the character buying the Vehicle or Base. After this the character must pay 1 Character Point for each Character Point possessed by the Base or Vehicle."

 

So, it seems to say that the disadvantages of the vehicle count towards the cost determination.

 

Nope, "Vehicles and Bases are built with Character Points and can have Disadvantages. The character pays 1 Character Point for each 5 Character Points used to build the Vehicle or Base, excluding points received from Disadvantages (in other words, when calculating the character’s cost, do not include the points the Vehicle or Base receives from Disadvantages)."

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

this is an exact excerpt from the PDF text:

 

"However, this cost only applies as long as the Base's or Vehicle's total points (including Disadvantages) are less than or equal to the total Character Points of the character buying the Vehicle or Base. After this the character must pay 1 Character Point for each Character Point possessed by the Base or Vehicle."

 

So, it seems to say that the disadvantages of the vehicle count towards the cost determination.

 

Dang! If I'd just kept my mouth shut I would've been vindicated.

[Dragon-D1]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

Nope, "Vehicles and Bases are built with Character Points and can have Disadvantages. The character pays 1 Character Point for each 5 Character Points used to build the Vehicle or Base, excluding points received from Disadvantages (in other words, when calculating the character’s cost, do not include the points the Vehicle or Base receives from Disadvantages)."

 

Then I'm confused about what the book means in the quote in my previous post.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

 

I'll just wait for the rest of you guys to hash it out.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

Hmmm. 1 per 5 points (not including Disadvantages) until the total points (including Disadvantages) exceeds the character's. This is my attempt to reconcile the statements....

 

So, say character is 200+150. He buys a vehicle that is 200 base. 40 points. For those 40 points, he gets a vehicle with a base of 200 points and up to an additional 150 points in Disadvantages. If the vehicle goes above the character's total, the character has to pay 1 for 1 above. So, if the vehicle is 200 base points + 155 points in Disadvantages, the character pays 45 points.

 

The character could pay 70 points and have a vehicle of up to 350 points with no Disadvantages, or he could pay 10 points and have a vehicle with up to 300 points in Disadvantages. Anything above that 350 has to be covered at 1/1.

[Dragon-D1]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

Hmmm. 1 per 5 points (not including Disadvantages) until the total points (including Disadvantages) exceeds the character's. This is my attempt to reconcile the statements....

 

So, say character is 200+150. He buys a vehicle that is 200 base. 40 points. For those 40 points, he gets a vehicle with a base of 200 points and up to an additional 150 points in Disadvantages. If the vehicle goes above the character's total, the character has to pay 1 for 1 above. So, if the vehicle is 200 base points + 155 points in Disadvantages, the character pays 45 points.

 

The character could pay 70 points and have a vehicle of up to 350 points with no Disadvantages, or he could pay 10 points and have a vehicle with up to 300 points in Disadvantages. Anything above that 350 has to be covered at 1/1.

 

Yes, that is what I thought it meant, but then the example that is given in the book breaks this rule

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

Yes' date=' that is what I thought it meant, but then the example that is given in the book breaks this rule[/quote']

 

My reading is that the point at which the cost reaches 1/1 is where the Vehicle's total points exceeds the character's, regardless of whether or not those points are covered by Disadvantages.

 

The amount of points the character pays for the vehicle, before that point, determine how many of the vehicle's total points have to be covered by Disadvantages.

 

If you're a 350 point character, and you want a 355 point vehicle, those extra 5 points worth of vehicle are going to cost you +5 points, no matter what. If you've paid 45 points total (40 for the base +5 for the 1/1) then the vehicle is 200 base points, and you still have to cover 155 of it with Disadvantages.

 

Oddness: if you're a 350 point character, and you want a 355 point vehicle, you could pay 71 points for the base 355 points, +5 because it's 5 over your point total, for a total of 76 points, and not have to cover any of it with Disadvantages.

 

Disclaimer: I have no idea if Steve would say this is right. This is only my reading.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

Posted in Rules Questions.

[Dragon-D1]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

Yet again I must point out the example given in the book, so let me quote the relevant part so you can see my problem:

 

"The Guardians build a Base. The team consists of four characters built on 225 Character Points, and one character built on 250. Therefore they can build a base with up to 250 points at a cost of (points/5); for all points beyond 250 points, they must pay (points/1). They can then also take Disadvantages for their base, which add to the 250 points without costing them any more Character Points."

 

The example then goes on to do the math and the base ends up with 40pts of Disadvantages over and above the 250 max, for which the characters do not have to pay more. This is a contradiction with the previous stated rule, at least as far as I can see.

[jtelson]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

It's the parenthetical (including Disadvantages) that seems to be causing the confusion. It seems to depend on if you read it as

 

1. Add the points aquired by Disadvantages to the base cost to determine when the pricing change occurs.

 

or

 

2. Include Disadvantages in the manner described in the previous sentence.

 

The example in the book seems to supports the 2nd choice.

[Steve Long]

Re: Vehicle/Base construction question

 

In the interest of (hopefully) saving a lot of time and fussing I'm going to shut this thread down and direct all of you to the answer I gave to Chris Goodwin's question on this issue in the Questions forum. If you feel the need to talk about it further, you're welcome to start up another thread.