BODY into STUN

[Basil]

I was looking through some of the books last night, and came across that old standby, "Bulletproof Spandex". That reminded me of some discussions in the Dark Champions forums about "realistic" bulletproof vests.

 

Especially the point made by many, that "real world" b.p. vests can still leave the wearer bruised. Sometimes, badly bruised. It seems to me that "Bulletproof Spandex" might suffer the same problem.

 

What occurred to me is, this is rather as if some of the BODY that would otherwise be done has been turned into STUN. So I idly tried to figure how to do this, and can't come up with a good method.

 

So, how would you do this?

 

To be more specific, how would you set up some kind of armor (with a lowercase "a") that would convert X amount of BODY into STUN. I suggest 2X STUN, as BODY costs 2 CP per point, and STUN costs 1 CP per point; that's not a requirement if you don't want to do that.

 

I have no plans to do something like this; call it idle curiousity.

 

However, I can see use for something like this in a "high realism" campaign.

[tesuji]

Re: BODY into STUN

 

well my first thought is why convert body into stun? They are handled separately.

 

wouldn't "armor doesn't stop stun" a better handling of the issue?

 

A bullet proof vest wont make the bullet hurt more and do more stun than having no armor would? right?

 

so when the bullet slams in with 7 body and 21 stun, build the armor with a lim for "doesn't stop stun" on some of it.

 

if you actually convert each body into 2 stun the two people side by side one with a vest and one without -

 

bullet strikes for base of 7 body and 21 stun.

 

no armor takes it all 7 body and 27 stun.

 

6 pt armor guys takes 1 body and 39 stun - 6 armor = 33 stun which is more than without.

 

so thats a little off. just have some of the armor not stop stun.

 

now a potentially more realistic version would have the armor totally fail if body exceeded the armor. it either stops the bullet and bruises the heck out of you or it gets inside and then you are screwed - not much more protection than if the bullet had hit you straight away.

[Vulcan]

Re: BODY into STUN

 

Your last point has some validity, but at the same time is a bit flawed.

 

What matters is how much energy the bullet has left once it penetrates the armor.

 

If the armor barely slowed it down, then the bullet will continue on through they body as normal.

 

If the armor slowed the bullet down a lot, then the bullet might not make it through the muscle and fat protecting the vital organs - or it might even bounce off a bone for minimal damage.

 

If the bullet barely makes it through the armor, it might not even scratch the body underneath.

 

And then there is that whole 'dramatic realism' thing that is built into the system...

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: BODY into STUN

 

One semi common house rule I've seen and considered applying for this is simply to adopt a "Bruising" rule where a target takes 1 Body, passing all defenses (except possibly Damage Reduction), for every X Stun inflicted in a single attack, with X usually being 20, 25, or a value based on a Primary Stat... often CON, BODY, or EGO.

 

Allows Bricks to do minor body damage to each other in slugging matches, and give a good simulation of the impact trauma passing through armor effect you get from soft body armor.

 

Edit: I suppose this could also be used in conjunction with the Real Armor limit, or bought as a Minor Side Effect on the Defensive power construct.

[Sean Waters]

Re: BODY into STUN

 

Hero only counts damage in terms of stun and body, neither of which is particularly good at simulating bruising damage, which can cause long term effects (well, longer than a few turns) but not fatal ones. As the impairing rules rely on Body damage you can not use them either.

 

Two suggestions then, to address your point (neither of which are generally worth the extra paperwork, but you may feel differently)

 

1. Long term stun (LTS). Similar to AmadanNaBriona's idea, but introducing a new category of damage. For every FULL 5 points of stun you take from a single attack you take one LTS. LTS works like stun damage but recovers at REC/day.

 

2. Converting killing damage to normal damage

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35284&highlight=conversion

 

Also one system solution that does not require special rules:

 

Armour (8PD) 12 points

ONLY v BODY -1/2

SIDE EFFECTS: Each Body stopped inflicts 1 stun (-1/2)

OIF (-1/2)

 

Total 5 points

[braincraft]

Re: BODY into STUN

 

Just buy it as Resistant on some or all of your PD. It won't change the amount of STUN you're taking, but it'll reduce the amount of BODY damage.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: BODY into STUN

 

...

 

Also one system solution that does not require special rules:

 

Armour (8PD) 12 points

ONLY v BODY -1/2

SIDE EFFECTS: Each Body stopped inflicts 1 stun (-1/2)

OIF (-1/2)

 

Total 5 points

 

I like this method the best.

 

I might change the wording to say Killing Body Damage stopped instead.

[Psylint]

Re: BODY into STUN

 

High Realism Bullet Proof vest:

 

+5 rpd, +5 red Armor. OIF, Real Armor, Sectional Defense. Side Effects always occurs when vest protects against body damage. Impact bruising Minor Side Effect 2d6 Energy Blast, NND (defense is desolidification).

 

Peace

[Sean Waters]

Re: BODY into STUN

 

I like this method the best.

 

I might change the wording to say Killing Body Damage stopped instead.

 

 

Refining the idea a little, you could up the side effect level a bit and define the side effect as a 1 point stun drain that recovers at 5 points per day, thus simulating bruising (or have some other effect - I'm not entirely sure what effect bruising has, although I am pretty sure if you've gotten really badly bruised then you probably pass out more readily if you are hit again. Come to think of it there was a character called Bruiser in one of the books who drained PD when he hit. That could work - makes you tender .)

[Basil]

Re: BODY into STUN

 

Just buy it as Resistant on some or all of your PD. It won't change the amount of STUN you're taking' date='[/quote']

 

Yes it will. If you have ANY "Resistant" defense, ALL your defense applies against STUN from a "Killing" attack.

[Basil]

Re: BODY into STUN

 

2. Converting killing damage to normal damage

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35284&highlight=conversion

 

Also one system solution that does not require special rules:

 

Armour (8PD) 12 points

ONLY v BODY -1/2

SIDE EFFECTS: Each Body stopped inflicts 1 stun (-1/2)

OIF (-1/2)

 

Total 5 points

The "Damage Conversion" power is interesting.

 

The Armour write up does exactly what I was thinking about! Thanks, and rep to you!

 

 

BTW --- Hyper-Man, the "Killing Attack Only" Lim is interesting, but I don't think it's necessary for "bullet-proof spandex." Still, if you want to do it that way, fine by me.

[braincraft]

Re: BODY into STUN

 

Yes it will. If you have ANY "Resistant" defense' date=' ALL your defense applies against STUN from a "Killing" attack.[/quote']

 

So? Non-superpowered/pulp humans tend not to have a whole lot of PD. The Stun lottery means even low-caliber handguns can CON Stun low-CON characters. You can still get the result you're looking for, especially if you keep the resistant value low, so lightly armored targets can still take BODY (broken ribs, bruised organs) through type IIIa or lower protection.

 

If your characters are so tough that a little bit of PD and a kevlar vest will keep them from getting knocked tea over asskettle by a single lucky shot, good for them. If not, then there's no reason to use a complicated construct when a simple one will serve.

 

I'm not sure why you're so adamant about some 'realistic' representation of superheroes getting shot through imaginary bulletproof spandex materials. Even in a 'high realism' setting, I can pretty much guarantee you that no ruleset can imitate the unpredictability of 'reality' with any high degree of 'accuracy'. Why strain yourself reaching for an extreme degree of approximation?

 

I didn't mean to go on at such length when I started this post, but this sort of reality-wank is another one of my gaming pet peeves. Speaking as someone who has spent a number of years working in the medical field for both the military and civilian sectors, and as someone who has been gaming for even longer than that, the only systems I've ever seen that 'get it right' with regards to combat/injuries are the ones with the most abstracted systems, since anything that delves into too much detail inevitably screws it up. And even if you could somehow put in the work to make it perfect, congratulations: you've made a game where conflict is just as bloody and unpleasant as it is in the real world. Just the thing for getting all the PCs killed before their players can feel any sort of personal investment in them.

 

There's too much granularity in this system to pick this sort of nit. Drop it.

[Kdansky]

Re: BODY into STUN

 

I get hit by a bullet doing 20 body and 40 stun. If I wear that spandex, I take 0 body and 60 stun. So the armor did 20 stun to me. Logical fallacy right there. The armor can prevent all damage (Armor), only stun (PD) or only body (limited armor). But it cannot *add* stun to it. That just does not make sense. The body and the stun part of an attack don't "add up", they are two symptoms of the same cause (X amount of force/impulse). That is like saying you can reduce the wavelength of warmth, but still allow it to to heat things.

 

Rubber science in honours, but at some points, it does more good than bad. Overcomplexifieing (is that even a word?) in a case like this for example.

 

Exactly As Low Realism As Before Bullet Proof Vest, But With Added Complexity:

+5 rpd, +5 red Armor. OIF, Real Armor, Sectional Defense. Side Effects always occurs when vest protects against body damage. Impact bruising Minor Side Effect 2d6 Energy Blast, NND (defense is desolidification).

I fix'd that for you

 

Hint: A lot of complicated constructs usually don't work out well at the game table. They add some math but provide neither realism nor fun.

 

I once thought a monster which was semi-solid (Desolid + Activation Roll) might be a good idea. Until I started rolling that stupid AR twenty times a turn. Suddenly, Damage Reduction (or just high defenses) with proper SFX looked a lot better. Braincraft is very correct indeed: The more abstract the system, the better it usually works.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: BODY into STUN

 

Another option would be to have any Body stopped by the armor do the following:

1. be the minimum amount of stun that gets through (a lesser version of Penetrating).

2. convert an amount of Stun equal to the Body stopped into a form of 'LTE Stun' loss.

[Markdoc]

Re: BODY into STUN

 

And as an aside, I should point out that "realistic" bulletproof armor not only stops BOD, but also pretty much all STUN - you can ask Vondy if you want more details, I seem to recall he worked at a place that made and tested body amour for a while.

 

My real life observations have been that if the body armour works (ie: stops the slug or blade completely) then it does no notable damage to the target at all. If it fails (ie: the bullet partially or fully penetrates) then the wearer can end up anywhere from mildly inconvenienced (bruising, flesh wound) to dead as a doornail. Flexible body armour will let STUN through of course - but if it deforms enough to seriously bruise you, then it also deforms enough to break bones - in other words, it potentially lets BOD through.

 

I can't, however, think of a case that matches "No penetration, but target was incapacitated anyway".

 

If you want "more realistic" body armour then I'd suggest a house rule that only rDEF stops killing BOD and STUN, but that only the BOD that goes through the rDEF does STUN - and maybe shift the multiplier up to a full D6 instead of a d6-1, to compensate.

 

cheers, Mark

[Basil]

Re: BODY into STUN

 

OK, fine, that's it. Next time I ask for help on how to do something, I will NOT tell anyone why.

 

Except for Amadan, Psylint, Hyper-Ma and especially Sean, everyone has gotten completely hung up on the why, not the how. I'm not really all that interested in who uses it where; I mentioned the potential for usefulness as an encouragement for people to think up how to do what I wanted.

 

Briancraft, I don't know what got you so ticked off you lectured at me. Sorry if I pressed a button, though I'll be d****d if I can see what it was. To me, it came across as bullying. If that's not what you meant, good; but that is what it sounded like.

 

Anyway, I've got Sean's build, which does what I was after, so I'm bailing out of this thread before it gets uglier.