How I'd use VPPs in FH

[BlueBuddha]

If any of you have read the Ars Magica magic system, and like it, than you might like this concept. It's actually been a while since I read it, so I doubt it's that close, but I've borrowed some of the concepts.

 

I imagine that when any mage goes through the process of learning to manipulate magic, they begin with easy spells and work their way up to more complicated ones. Along the way, the begin to grasp the fundimentals of the theory behind spell design. Spells are simply invocations of a combination of magical effects that have been broken down into a formulaic shortcut. As a mage practices a spell, he gets better at it. Soon, the gestures and incantations and mental formations become second nature, and the process is mastered. In fact, a mage probably continues to perfect his casting of Magic Missile well past 20th level.

 

Now, on to my point. As a mage learns very specific pre-designed spells, he also learnes the theory behind them. How to "summon forth fire without flint or tinder" for instance. Once they understand the pieces of the spells they already know, they can invoke them without casting a more complex spell. They would have less control over them, most likely, but for simpler tasks that would be okay.

 

Also, compared to less experienced casters, an experienced mage could summon fire spontaneously, without a spell, which could still be better than some fire spells.

 

In game terms, I would simulate this with a VPP. It would be aSlightly Limited Class of powers: magic. RSR would be appropriate, since the caster would have to figure out, on the fly, how to invoke the correct effects to get what he or she wants. In fact, you might require a number of different skills for different magic schools.

 

As the caster becomes more experienced at improvising magical effects, he or she can buy the advantages to change the powers as half- or zero phase actions.

 

Other appropriate limiations: Extra Time: if you want it to be even harder; Side Effects: to represent the fat that straying from "proven" spells, the magic becomes less reliable. You could also limit the powers available more specifically to effects that the caster already knows from spells he's paid points for. He can't make fire unless he knows at least one fire spell, for instance. I would probably limit the number of points in the pool to less than the number of AP in the caster's Repertoire of spells he's paid points for. His cantrips shouldn't be more powerful than his actual spell- spells.

 

Another way of handling this is to allow "wild mages" to take this without knowing any real spells. In that case, I'd limit the VPP heavily and most likely require multiple skills.

 

 

What do you think of that?

 

BlueBuddha

[Jeff]

I'm not sure what's gained indulging in the dreaded VPP over just buying down or off limitations, increasing active points, and getting more and better KS's, maybe PS: Mage, and a better Magic skill roll to represent the same sort of effects.

[JMHammer]

What's the limitation?

 

BlueBuddha said:

In game terms, I would simulate this with a VPP. It would be aSlightly Limited Class of powers: magic.

 

What could a character not do with this Variable Power Pool? I don't see how "only magic" is a limitation.

 

Your concept sounds interesting, but I don't understand this part.

 

John H

[eepjr24]

Re: What's the limitation?

 

Originally posted by JMHammer What could a character not do with this Variable Power Pool? I don't see how "only magic" is a limitation.

 

Your concept sounds interesting, but I don't understand this part. [/b]

 

Well, they could not make anything that would run in an anti-magic field, or that could not be detected with "Detect Magic", be affected by Adjustment powers with "vs Magic" effect, be countered by defense bought "Only vs Magic", etc.

 

You could disallow it for your games, if you like. But it is a fairly common lim for VPP's, even found in FREd on page 209.

 

- Ernie

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Re: What's the limitation?

 

Originally posted by eepjr24

Well, they could not make anything that would run in an anti-magic field, or that could not be detected with "Detect Magic", be affected by Adjustment powers with "vs Magic" effect, be countered by defense bought "Only vs Magic", etc.

 

You could disallow it for your games, if you like. But it is a fairly common lim for VPP's, even found in FREd on page 209.

 

- Ernie

 

My general requirement is that the ONLY special effects can be magic. You can make a magic flame, but it doesn't trigger vulnerabilities to heat and flame. You can't use VSE to get around this. "Only Magic" means Magic ONLY".

[eepjr24]

Re: Re: Re: What's the limitation?

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

My general requirement is that the ONLY special effects can be magic. You can make a magic flame, but it doesn't trigger vulnerabilities to heat and flame. You can't use VSE to get around this. "Only Magic" means Magic ONLY".

 

Just curious why you do that? I mean, I can see some pretty major implications. A mage who uses his "metal magic" to create a dancing sword spell would not trigger the Treant's vulnerability to blades? Or the ice mage who uses his ice bolts versus a fire elemental would not ahve them do extra damage?

 

Thinking further, it would probably work well if everyone assumed things worked that way, but it would take some getting used to for some players. In my current magic system design, I require mages to have a skill for each broad type of magic they have. So a mage might have a Smoke Magic skill, a Fire Magic skill and a Air Magic skill, but not a General magic skill. His VPP could only contains spells of a type for which he had a skill. In an extreme emergency, I might allow them to try it without, but the side effects would probably take them out of the picture for a while.

 

- Ernie

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the limitation?

 

Originally posted by eepjr24

Just curious why you do that? I mean, I can see some pretty major implications. A mage who uses his "metal magic" to create a dancing sword spell would not trigger the Treant's vulnerability to blades? Or the ice mage who uses his ice bolts versus a fire elemental would not ahve them do extra damage?

 

Thinking further, it would probably work well if everyone assumed things worked that way, but it would take some getting used to for some players. In my current magic system design, I require mages to have a skill for each broad type of magic they have. So a mage might have a Smoke Magic skill, a Fire Magic skill and a Air Magic skill, but not a General magic skill. His VPP could only contains spells of a type for which he had a skill. In an extreme emergency, I might allow them to try it without, but the side effects would probably take them out of the picture for a while.

 

Essentially, by taking the +1/4 limit, the mage sacrifices the ability to access a wide array of special effects. He shouldn't be using Magic Flame, Magic Blade or Magic Ice - he should have a Magic Blast. Just like a VPP Fire Powers Only doesn't get ice against the fire elemental.

 

He could use Summon and conjure up a Magical sword weilder, I suppose. Or even a Fire Elemental or Ice Elemental. But he doesn't get to change his SFX to match the opponent. That's why he gets a limitation.

 

Your approach provides an alternate limiting factor might also work. It imposes a limiting factor (you either have skill with that effect, or you can't use it)

 

The catch is, Magic is a pretty broad category, even compared to the other examples in FREd - Only Attacks can't get anything Only Magic can't duplicate unless some limit is imposed. Absent an arbitrary restruction, name a power or advantage that Magic can't generate. Dispel Magic, Suppress magic - these are common magic spells. NO limitation means no Limitation, so that +1/4 has to have an impact or it's not worth a point reduction.

[BlueBuddha]

Re: What's the limitation?

 

Originally posted by JMHammer

What could a character not do with this Variable Power Pool? I don't see how "only magic" is a limitation.

 

Your concept sounds interesting, but I don't understand this part.

Well, read on, JMHammer. I address that exact question later in the post. You must not have read it all the way. If I was suggesting this to other GMs, I'd also suggest they limit it as much as they can. I haven't actually tried this out in a real game, but here's an example:

 

Spontaneous Casting: Variable Power Pool (Magic), 15 base + 5 control cost, Powers Can Be Changed As A Half-Phase Action (+1/2) (26 Active Points); Can Only Reproduce Effects From Known Spells (-1/2), Limited Class Of Powers Available: Magic Slightly Limited (-1/4), Side Effects (-1/4)

Powers Cost: 20

 

This would be accompanied by a skill "Magic." If spells already requre RSR, then make the VPPs skill rolls harder.

 

The above would be for a caster who is fairly competant. He would know at least 5 spells already, with at least a couple being 30+ AP. If you want to restrict it more, require a "Fire Magic" skill roll for all fire effects, "Mind Magic" skill rolls for mind effects, etc...

 

Originally posted by eepjr24

Well, they could not make anything that would run in an anti-magic field, or that could not be detected with "Detect Magic", be affected by Adjustment powers with "vs Magic" effect, be countered by defense bought "Only vs Magic", etc.

 

You could disallow it for your games, if you like. But it is a fairly common lim for VPP's, even found in FREd on page 209.

These are all reasonable for certain campaigns, but I probably wouldn't use them.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

My general requirement is that the ONLY special effects can be magic. You can make a magic flame, but it doesn't trigger vulnerabilities to heat and flame. You can't use VSE to get around this. "Only Magic" means Magic ONLY".

I probably wouldn't use that too. Of course, you're talking about magic in general and not just spontaneous magic.

 

I would consider spontaneous magic to be basically the same as spell/formulaic magic. The difference is like someone who knows how to sew leather jackets and denim pants deciding to try making leather pants. They've got the formula down for both, but decide to improvise, using the theory of sewing to make something they've never made before. They're still pants, thus following all the rules of pants, and they're made out of leather, following all the same rules as leather. Same with spontaneous casting. A trained observer might be able to notice by the crudeness of it's casting that it isn't a real spell, the caster is just improvising. It wouldn't be pretty, but it would get the job done, assuming the skill roll succeeds.

 

As for the side effects: I'd have the GM simply go with what's appropriate for the effects being invoked. He could have an improvised fire effect explode on the caster, or have the opposite occur, freezing something (not harming the target, of course).

 

BlueBuddha

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Re: What's the limitation?

 

Originally posted by BlueBuddha

Spontaneous Casting: Variable Power Pool (Magic), 15 base + 5 control cost, Powers Can Be Changed As A Half-Phase Action (+1/2) (26 Active Points); Can Only Reproduce Effects From Known Spells (-1/2), Limited Class Of Powers Available: Magic Slightly Limited (-1/4), Side Effects (-1/4)

Powers Cost: 20

 

Seems to me "can only reproduce the effects of known spells" is already a limited class of powers. Are there any non-magical "known spells" the extra +1/4 prevents the character from acquiring with his power pool?

 

On the other hand, depending on how many known spells are out there,maybe that limiting factor is worth more than +1/2 (or less, I guess, depending on the knowledge level of the caster).

[BlueBuddha]

Atually, what I mean by "Can Only Reproduce Effects From Known Spells" is spells known to the caster using the VPP. For instance, if he knows 5 spells: Detect Magic, Invisibility, Fireball, Acid Spray, and Light; he could, for instance, invoke invisibility effects, fire effects, acid effects, and light effects. He could detect any of the things above, spray them, or shape them into exploding balls. At the GMs discretion (like every effect in the VPP), these effects can be stretched a bit. The GM might also allow very simple effects not covered by spells already known. He might allow a different area effect shape (perhaps with a higher skill roll), for instance.

 

If a character is using the VPP exclusively for all of his magical effects, then the above limitation wouldn't be there, instead, I'd probably require multiple magic skills, like I mentioned before. His ability to use various effects will depend on his skill rolls, not on known spells.

 

BlueBuddha

[Hugh Neilson]

So the limitation for "only effects of spells known" should supersede "magic only", as both limit the types of powers he can have, but should vary depending on the variety of spells that character knows outside his VPP.

 

That will make xp spending interesting..."One more spell effect and your VPP limit goes down 1/4".