Variant types of damage?

[torchwolf]

I'm considering incorporating additional types of damage in my next campaign(s).

 

Physical (vs PD/ED and CON; take STUN and BODY)

- just as the book (5ER) says.

 

Psychological (vs Mental Defense; take BODY as EGO Damage, possibly as well take Psychological Limitations from extreme PRE Attacks - as once suggested in Horror Hero, and more recently in Ultimate Mystic)

- this would not necessarily require any new rules, instead merely defining attacks as having an SFX of "Psychological" and noting damage separately from STUN and BODY.

 

Mystical (vs Power Defense, or possibly any PD/ED/other DEF defined as "Mystical"; take BODY as BODY Damage or EGO Damage)

- this would not necessarily require any new rules, instead merely defining attacks as having an SFX of "Mystical" and noting damage separately from STUN and BODY.

 

Why? Well, various types of characters specialize in different types of attacks than merely physical ones, so why not have different ways of taking damage?

 

My thought here is to enable a character to be hurt or injured in other ways than taking STUN or BODY - not that it cannot be simulated using Adjustment Powers, but the idea is to add diversity without having to add new mechanics or twist Power constructs around.

 

I have pages of notes on these ideas, but would appreciate any input... I stand awaiting the arrival of flames.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Variant types of damage?

 

Some nice ideas, although maybe your pages of notes give some more details. I see an appeal to mental-type attacks (including extreme PRE) doing damage other than BDY damage, and EGO would be a good choice if you go that route. (I don't see "mystical" as a separate catagory myself; either the magic has physical or psychological impact so it doesn't require its own heading.)

 

Since BDY and EGO are priced the same, you could easily define an EB saying it affects EGO instead of BDY to change the flavor of the power a bit. The problem is that most people don't have much if any Mental Defense, which is why BOECV is a +1 Advantage (and makes the attack STN only IIRC). If you want it to do BDY too (or EGO in this case) you need another +1 Advantage. Suddenly those adjustment powers don't look so bad...

 

You might consider this though. If a mental attack stuns someone, or if the "BDY" rolled on the dice would cause impairment (per the impairment rules but use EGO in place of BDY and obviously no EGO is actually lost) the target might pick up a temporary Psych Lim or have to make an EGO roll to perform an action. That is going to make mental attacks potentially a lot more powerful, so be careful (this could be offset by giving everyone base level mental defense of EGO/5).

 

My only other comment is that heroes are often supposed to be strong-willed and most players hate their characters being psychologically handicapped more than being physically handicapped. There is an appeal to someone overcoming physical adversity, while psychological adversity is often considered just weak-willed (maybe that says something about how our society views mental illness, but that is another topic). Anyway, if you are going to have mental/mystical attacks do damage to EGO be careful not to turn the heroes into cowardly, wishy-washy wimps.

[torchwolf]

Re: Variant types of damage?

 

Excellent input. I'm considering your points.

 

Some nice ideas' date=' although maybe your pages of notes give some more details. I see an appeal to mental-type attacks (including extreme PRE) doing damage other than BDY damage, and EGO would be a good choice if you go that route. (I don't see "mystical" as a separate catagory myself; either the magic has physical or psychological impact so it doesn't require its own heading.)[/quote']

 

Correct. It might depend on whether you count an "Astral Form" construct as being able to take damage while Desolidified, but they are usually vulnerable to magic anyway.

 

Since BDY and EGO are priced the same' date=' you could easily define an EB saying it affects EGO instead of BDY to change the flavor of the power a bit. The problem is that most people don't have much if any Mental Defense, which is why BOECV is a +1 Advantage (and makes the attack STN only IIRC). If you want it to do BDY too (or EGO in this case) you need another +1 Advantage. Suddenly those adjustment powers don't look so bad...[/quote']

 

Except that Adjustment Powers are fully dependent on how the attacker constructed their Recovery Rate.

 

You might consider this though. If a mental attack stuns someone' date=' or if the "BDY" rolled on the dice would cause impairment (per the impairment rules but use EGO in place of BDY and obviously no EGO is actually lost) the target might pick up a temporary Psych Lim or have to make an EGO roll to perform an action. That is going to make mental attacks potentially a lot more powerful, so be careful (this could be offset by giving everyone base level mental defense of EGO/5).[/quote']

 

This could work as a "Does Psychological Damage" Advantage costing +1 or so (similarly to Does BODY), or as a BOECV Major Transform, Improved Results.

 

Ultimate Mentalist (and Horror Hero in a variant) suggested that a PRE + 40 result or more from a PRE Attack would inflict a Total Psych Lim, and that even a PRE + 30 with inflict a Strong Psych Lim, though I'm not sure I agree with this fully (even if the Psych Lims were temporary).

 

My only other comment is that heroes are often supposed to be strong-willed and most players hate their characters being psychologically handicapped more than being physically handicapped. There is an appeal to someone overcoming physical adversity' date=' while psychological adversity is often considered just weak-willed (maybe that says something about how our society views mental illness, but that is another topic). Anyway, if you are going to have mental/mystical attacks do damage to EGO be careful not to turn the heroes into cowardly, wishy-washy wimps.[/quote']

 

Turning PCs into NPCs is never a good idea, unless you like playing with just yourself. No, that wasn't a lewd comment.

 

My pondering was along these lines: would it contribute anything to differentiation between characters if damage could be inflicted in other ways than just STUN and BODY?

 

Example: Occult Investigator Trevor McKenzie is struck by a spell from an evil cultist, and suffers 15 "Mystical Damage (non-lethal)". Since his EGO is only 14, he is Stunned (and marks off 15 "MD(nl)"). The cultist, somewhat exhausted mystically from casting the spell, leaps at Trevor with an unpleasant-looking and bloodsoaked dagger and hits Trevor in the left shoulder. Trevor takes 3 BODY and 9 STUN from this, and grins vengefully (during his next Phase) as he fires his trusty shotgun at the cultist (who drops). Soon after, Trevor has somewhat Recovered, and has no "Mystical Damage" but is still slightly injured (he is down 3 BODY and 3 STUN). Nevertheless, he sneaks deeper into the evil temple...

 

Greatly appreciate all feedback.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Variant types of damage?

 

Would someone who was psychologically or mystically 'battered' but not physically attacked (so far) be any easier to KO with a punch? Or are the types of damage completely independent?

[Peregrine]

Re: Variant types of damage?

 

 

Since BDY and EGO are priced the same, you could easily define an EB saying it affects EGO instead of BDY to change the flavor of the power a bit. The problem is that most people don't have much if any Mental Defense, which is why BOECV is a +1 Advantage (and makes the attack STN only IIRC). If you want it to do BDY too (or EGO in this case) you need another +1 Advantage. Suddenly those adjustment powers don't look so bad...

 

 

So make MD a Figured Characteristic instead of a power. Q.E.D.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Variant types of damage?

 

If you wanted 'damage' from physical, psychological and mystical sources to be related but semi independent you could accomplish that by keeping stun and Body, and just defining all damage as Physical Psychological or Mystical. then characters could take damage reduction as appropriate:

 

Kaella Ashira is a Mage of the seventh order. She is slight physically but has seen things that would turn strong men to jelly and has astonishing resiliance to mystical energies as she subconsciously manipulates them to avoid harm.

 

She is built with 50% Psychological damage reduction and 75% Mystical damage reduction: she hardly feels mystical bolts and she can keep her lunch even in the presence of Ancient Filthy Ones, unless they decide to get physical...

 

Another option is this...

 

When you build an attack it targets stun, presence or intelligence (they are all 1 point)

 

HOWEVER any additional stun you buy over the figured amount acts as a buffer for all three types.

 

So Kaella has 18 figured STUN, 20 INT and 15 PRE. She buys an additional 12 stun. She has 10 CON. She has a REC of 4.

 

When she is attacked by any attack the damage comes off her additional stun FIRST, then off the relevant characteristic.

 

So if she gets a slap that does 8 stun through defences (physical), she is down to 4 additional stun.

 

She is then made to watch something mind-shreddingly disgusting, which does her 12 points of psychological damage through defences. She is stunned (as it is in excess of her CON) and takes 4 damage to her 'added Stun' and the remaining 8 points to her PRE. Her PRE is down to

 

Next she is mystically blasted (she's having a bad day) for 12 points through defences. She has no added stun left so she takes the damage to INT, and is down to 8 INT and is stunned again.

 

At the end of the turn her STUN, INT and PRE all recover 4 points. Her additional stun can not recover until her 'base' stun, INT and PRE are fully restored.

 

 

Appropriate defences might be pd/ed for physical, mental defence for mystical and PRE Defence for psychological. I just made up PRE defence: it adds to PRE for PRE attacks and protects against psychological damage. it costs 1 point per point.

[Peregrine]

Re: Variant types of damage?

 

If you wanted 'damage' from physical, psychological and mystical sources to be related but semi independent you could accomplish that by keeping stun and Body, and just defining all damage as Physical Psychological or Mystical. then characters could take damage reduction as appropriate:

 

Kaella Ashira is a Mage of the seventh order. She is slight physically but has seen things that would turn strong men to jelly and has astonishing resiliance to mystical energies as she subconsciously manipulates them to avoid harm.

 

She is built with 50% Psychological damage reduction and 75% Mystical damage reduction: she hardly feels mystical bolts and she can keep her lunch even in the presence of Ancient Filthy Ones, unless they decide to get physical...

 

 

Very elegant - I like!

[torchwolf]

Re: Variant types of damage?

 

If you wanted 'damage' from physical, psychological and mystical sources to be related but semi independent you could accomplish that by keeping stun and Body, and just defining all damage as Physical Psychological or Mystical. then characters could take damage reduction as appropriate:

 

Kaella Ashira is a Mage of the seventh order. She is slight physically but has seen things that would turn strong men to jelly and has astonishing resiliance to mystical energies as she subconsciously manipulates them to avoid harm.

 

She is built with 50% Psychological damage reduction and 75% Mystical damage reduction: she hardly feels mystical bolts and she can keep her lunch even in the presence of Ancient Filthy Ones, unless they decide to get physical...

 

Exactly! Your example is accomplished by establishing new classes/definitions/types of damage rather than just SFX but works the same way. I am considering trying the route of using existing mechanics first.

 

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised states (p238): “For the purposes of Transform, all targets possess three traits: Body, Mind, and Spirit. Body is the target's physical body or substance. Mind is the target's sentience, intellect, self-awareness, and the knowledge he possesses. Spirit is the target's soul, spiritual aspects/qualities, and personality. Unliving, inanimate objects, such as stones, possess neither Mind nor Spirit; usually only living beings possess these traits.”

 

 

This is the basis for this discussion. Unfortunately, the above definition places a character's personality under “Spirit” (which may indeed be true for some metaphysical standpoints such as in voudoun, ancient Egypt, druidic faiths, etc.), which muddies up the issue of distinguishing between psychological and mystical, but I will ignore this for now.

 

Another option is this...

 

When you build an attack it targets stun, presence or intelligence (they are all 1 point)

 

HOWEVER any additional stun you buy over the figured amount acts as a buffer for all three types.

 

So Kaella has 18 figured STUN, 20 INT and 15 PRE. She buys an additional 12 stun. She has 10 CON. She has a REC of 4.

 

When she is attacked by any attack the damage comes off her additional stun FIRST, then off the relevant characteristic.

 

So if she gets a slap that does 8 stun through defences (physical), she is down to 4 additional stun.

 

She is then made to watch something mind-shreddingly disgusting, which does her 12 points of psychological damage through defences. She is stunned (as it is in excess of her CON) and takes 4 damage to her 'added Stun' and the remaining 8 points to her PRE. Her PRE is down to

 

Next she is mystically blasted (she's having a bad day) for 12 points through defences. She has no added stun left so she takes the damage to INT, and is down to 8 INT and is stunned again.

 

At the end of the turn her STUN, INT and PRE all recover 4 points. Her additional stun can not recover until her 'base' stun, INT and PRE are fully restored.

 

Another elegant example of relying on existing mechanics. Will think about this.

 

Appropriate defences might be pd/ed for physical' date=' mental defence for mystical and PRE Defence for psychological. I just made up PRE defence: it adds to PRE for PRE attacks and protects against psychological damage. it costs 1 point per point.[/quote']

 

PRE Defense was introduced sometime during the 3rd Edition, IIRC, but was purchased as PRE, Only Usable vs PRE Attacks (-1).

 

Thanks for the suggestions! Will ruminate further later....

[torchwolf]

Re: Variant types of damage?

 

Body, Mind and Spirit

 

I need to split this up into two discrete parts to address my ideas on variant types of damage – in hindsight, I might have called this “variant types of effect”.

 

Would someone who was psychologically or mystically 'battered' but not physically attacked (so far) be any easier to KO with a punch? Or are the types of damage completely independent?

 

I was thinking separately... to use a Transform for all three effects, you would need three separate Transforms, which establishes the concept under 5ER that you can indeed be affected in separate ways simultanously without being affected in another - unless you 're KO'd, Transformed or killed in one way, which would probably result in being out of the action at the very least.

 

It would for instance be possible for the GM to create a villain that damages characters mystically as they battle his minions physically, and they would still be able to attack the villain physically, as they took mystical damage separately from physical damage. Thus, being able to take damage in other ways than through STUN and BODY would possibly increase the drama of a dangerous situation without simultaneous reducing their ability to take punishment in conventional ways – as well as give players and GMs more options for character design. Granted, this would possibly affect existing character writeups, but mainly specialized mentalists and mystics.

[torchwolf]

Re: Variant types of damage?

 

Mental Damage/Effects (Mind):

 

Without going into metaphysics, the rules cover the possibility of mental powers and effects, so any damage or effects could be recorded as mental damage and/or effects as well. This is done with the Mental Powers effect rolls and charts, which compares to the Knockout Chart – still, no Figured Characteristic or damage record compares to STUN or BODY. The Power Advantage Works Against EGO, Not BODY (+1/4) allows for using EGO instead of BODY, but nothing represents the mental equivalent of STUN.

 

5ER suggests (p538, under the Horror Genre) the optional Sanity figured Characteristic to address this: SAN [EGO+(PRE/2)+(CON/2)] which would definitely fulfill that role (supposedly it would follow the cost structure of PD/ED/Mental Defense/Power Defense). SAN would recover using normal REC, but not receive any post-Segment 12 Recovery, and only possible under calm and non-threatening conditions.

 

Optionally, as originally suggested in old Horror Hero (p30), a new Psychological Recovery (PREC?) Figured Characteristic could be added (based on (PRE/5)+(EGO/5)), but I have my doubts as to its necessity.

 

This touches the question of whether Mental Defense should be a Power or Characteristic, but that would probably belong under the 6th Edition discussion, so I'll leave that.

 

Still, the question remains: what causes SAN damage? 5ER suggests that the GM simply assign Xd6 of Sanity Damage to appropriately terrifying, gruesome or disturbing effects, though this only covers the usual stuff from Call of Cthulhu (disfigured corpses, forbidden lore, extracosmic existences, general fear effects) and no direct secondary effects.

 

There were alternate rules for Shock and Stress (expanded rules for Presence Attacks, Stress Levels, Short/Long Term Stress, and temporary effects on Psychological Limitations) in Horror Hero (p22-32), but since that was a 4th Ed genre book these would not apply now (Horror Hero also had rules for spirits in the HERO System which were reprinted in HERO System Almanac 2, but I will leave those for another discussion concerning Ultimate Mystic).

 

Generally speaking, I can see two general ways to represent shock and stress in the current rules (5ER). The first is by using Powers; the second is using the mechanics for PRE Attacks – each has different effects, pros and cons. I'll post the first method here and the second in a later post.

 

Method 1 – representing Shock/Stress using Powers: fear/shock/stress is primarily the SFX in this variant.

Pros: no new mechanics are needed at all.

Cons: characters may need special defenses to protect themselves from some applications of this method.

 

Possible Powers:

 

Drain

 

Ego Attack

 

Entangle, BOECV (+1), Works Against EGO, Not BODY (+1/4), Takes No Damage From Attacks (+1/4).

This may, of course, represent the effect of a character being paralyzed by fear. In this special case, allies of the target may apply Mind Control (instead of EGO Attack as suggested) to calm the target; each +5 Effect rolled by the Mind Control would then a 5 to the target's EGO for the purposes of breaking the Entangle (i.e., recovering from the shock).

 

Flash

 

Mental Illusions

 

Mind Control

 

Suppress

 

Transform as Psionic Surgery (5ER, p239-240; Ultimate Mentalist, p70-71): Transform, BOECV (+1), Works Against EGO, Not BODY (+1/4). Note that such a Mental Transform does not also need the Does BODY Power Advantage to affect the target.

As noted in UM, a Minor Transform might suffice to alter the Intensity of a Psychological Limitation, but a Major Transform would probably be needed to create new ones.

[torchwolf]

Re: Variant types of damage?

 

So make MD a Figured Characteristic instead of a power. Q.E.D.

 

I may add new primary Sanity/Mind and Spirit, as well as new Figured Mental Defense and Arcane Defense, but first I want to turn the question inside out in true HERO fashion.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Variant types of damage?

 

This is a very intriguing concept, but I think to build it properly you need to figure out what gameplay effect you want, and then contruct the powers and/or CHA to fit that.

 

For psychological damage, maybe this means the character has to make an EGO roll to perform any dangerous action while he is "psychologically injured", or instead maybe the character picks up a temporary Psych Lim.

 

Maybe a "horror" attack substitutes EGO for BDY and PRE for STN, so that the hero is less able to resist the next horror until he recovers from the first. Then again, maybe the horror causes people to faint, so STN damage is appropriate.

 

Maybe the mystical attacks make the hero feebleminded so that they do INT instead of STN damage, or instead it might fundamentally weaken the hero so that they take CON instead of BDY damage.

 

The point is that once you figure out what you want the sfx of the attacks to do in gameplay, you can design the powers around it. And then let us know what you came up with, because I for one am curious to hear it.

[torchwolf]

Re: Variant types of damage?

 

Mind Damage Effects (was Mental Damage/Effects) v1.1

(revised – thanks Ockham's Spoon, Sean Waters, for ideas)

 

 

Part 1: Powers

 

 

 

 

Summary: Mental Defense for defenses; EGO for mental Killing damage and stunning; possibly new Figured SHOCK for mental stunning.

 

 

Reason: I really intend for these mechanics to work as “Plug-In Rules”. Although Sean's method is elegant, it would make a character who was built without taking other kinds of damage into consideration (i.e., most characters) too vulnerable, and would require character designs to spend more points to be effective. From a player POV, this would probably be unpopular (I know I would groan and sigh), so I aim for these mechanics to make characters approximately as vulnerable as they would already be to normal Mental Powers, not more vulnerable. Also, I think the points already spent to avoid being KO'd should count for this purpose as well (as suggested by Sean and noted under the SHOCK Figured Characteristic). The suggestion by Ockham's Spoon on Impairment is not treated here, but I'm considering a possible Impairment Chart for Mental/Mind Damage which will be posted later on. That idea would work outside of the specific mechanics (You're quite welcome to design that Impairment Chart if you feel up to it, Ockham).

 

 

NOTE 1: Champions in 3-D (4th Ed) scenario Horror World used the Mental Transform/Psionic Surgery method (see previous post) for representing gradual insanity from Things PCs Were Not Meant To See, and while it was very entertaining (my players are still talking about it), I would think twice before doing it again – it took a long time for the PCs to function “normally” again.

BTW, Allen Varney (also Mystic Masters (4th Ed) and DEMON (5th Ed) wrote Horror World. Definitely check it out if you like Lovecraft and Champions (needs restructuring for lesser-point heroes).

 

 

NOTE 2: Ultimate Mentalist suggests the new Primary Characteristic Psyche (PSY) be added to fill the mental purpose of DEX for determining ECV and mental SPD. Although I don't think it would contribute enough improvement to the rules to warrant it's inclusion here, all of these suggestions would work just the same if you decide to include it. EGO would still be used as written here.

 

 

 

 

Suggested new mechanics:

Any Attack purchased with the Power Advantages BOECV (+1) and Works Against EGO, Not BODY (+¼) would use EGO instead of CON for purposes of Stunning, and would inflict normal STUN damage, recovered normally (a character can now become Stunned by mental damage as well as physical – you can call it Mind Stunned, but there is no separate game effects in using another name for it; that would be strictly for descriptive purposes).

Any Mental Power that causes damage (Ego Attack, damaging Mental Illusion, etc.) can apply the Works Against EGO, Not BODY (+¼) Power Advantage to make it work this way.

If Mental Defense is not a Figured Characteristic, the GM may require the AVLD (+1½ or +¾) Advantage to be applied to such a Power.

In either case, the Attack only does STUN unless purchased with the Does EGO (+1) Advantage (actually Does BODY, renamed for clarity), which enables the Power to inflict Normal Damage against EGO (or Killing Damage if KA or similar). Mental Defense would protect against this as normally.

 

 

Optionally, Shock (SHK) could be introduced as a new Figured Characteristic to keep track of Mind Damage:

SHK [EGO+(INT/2)+(PRE/2)]. Cost would be 1.

NOTE: If you want to include this in an existing campaign, you may want to “grandfather it” by giving a PC a number of bonus CP equal to: as many points as has been spent on STUN; the average points spent on STUN in the campaign – possibly more for mentalists; etc. Whatever seems fair to you and your players, but keep balance in mind.

 

 

Option 1: any extra STUN purchased by the character could also be added as extra SHK, in which case SHK has no cost.

 

 

Option 2: a character's value for STUN is used, but Mind Damage is tracked separately – SHK (or Mind STUN, if you will), on a separate damage track.

 

 

This would cover mental damage as a separate mechanism for taking damage, but I think psychological damage would be better covered using PRE Attacks (see Method 2 in later post).

[torchwolf]

Re: Variant types of damage?

 

Spiritual Damage/Effects (was Mystical Damage/Effects):

 

 

Published Definitions & Suggestions:

 

Fantasy Hero suggests (p81) introducing a new figured Characteristic, Arcane Defense, based on different Primary Characteristics depending on whether magic is controlled by knowledge (INT/5), willpower (EGO/5), spiritual strength and/or personal command through impressiveness or negotiation (PRE/5). In Fantasy Hero, it is suggested that it would cost between 2 and 5 points, as it could defend against any magic SFX attack regardless of which defense would normally apply. Alternatively, this could be a Power, and only those who buy it get any base Defense (as Mental Defense is currently handled). Still, this may be too nebulous for most campaigns.

 

“Transforming The Spirit” (under the Transform Power) notes that a Spirit Transform normally works against BODY, but may be required by the GM to have BOECV (+1), and presumably as well Works Against EGO, Not BODY (typically a +¼).

An option noted is that it could work against PRE, using PRE to represent the strength of a character's Spirit. It is suggested that Works Against PRE, Not BODY would probably be a (-1/2) Limitation rather than an Advantage (depending on how high the average PRE goes, that is).

Note: if a Spiritual Transform works against PRE, consider the effects in combination with other Adjustment Powers affecting PRE, which are twice as effective against PRE as against EGO or BODY.

 

 

This part is the trickiest – should a new mechanic using PRE (or possibly a new Primary CHAR; Spirit) be used, or should EGO or BODY be used depending on how a Spiritually damaging attack is built or defined? Possibly ways to go:

 

Apathy/Vegetating Attacks:

Works Against EGO, Not BODY (possibly +¼) for effects that reduces a character's ability to act or make decisions.

 

Gibbering Lunacy Attacks:

Works Against INT, Not BODY (possibly +¼) for effects that reduces a character's ability to think clearly or understand.

 

Soul-Consuming/Fear-Inducing Attacks:

Works Against PRE, Not BODY (possibly +¼) for effects that weakens a character's resolve and/or spiritual integrity (optionally, Works Against SPI (Spirit), Not BODY).

 

 

All these comes with the Side Effect: May Open Up Large Cans Of Worms (Always Occurs).

 

I'm open to suggestions here.

[the fox]

Re: Variant types of damage?

 

EGO is more than willpower, and don't we know INT is not knowledge? Yeah, that Fantasy Hero can't merely suggest one stat to base a magic system on?

Actually, a full magic system would be 'based on' all three characteristics, and more!

Isn't INT more speed and accuracy of thought than knowledge?

in either case, it is important to spell-casting, traditionally and for skills.

EGO speaks of willpower, and other powers of the mind; some spells require intense concentration, do they not?

PRE Defense is of prime importance when talking to demons.

How do they suggest you 'base it' on any one? pick one, and base your 'Arcane Defense'

on that? I'm rollin' as I pick between INT, EGO and PRE!

Thanks for defining what 'Arcane Defense' is; no wonder you call it nebulous!

[ayinde]

Re: Variant types of damage?

 

I don't know if this will help you but in our game we have a mental attack we call terror/ dominate its the killing attack of mental powers cost 20pts per d6 and drain's ego or presents decide at creation other wise its just killing attack