ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Doesn't really matter does it? in 5E you could spend the points all on Mental Defense or EGO. Now you can spread those same points out to MD, DMCV and EGO. You're spending the same amount of points to be equally defensible, but in different areas. Or your spending more points on defense, leaving you less points elsewhere. There's no issue here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD In 5E, the typical M might spend 26 pts to have Ego 23. The typical non-M might spend 8 pts to have a Ego 14. The non-M spends 18 pts less and will be hit on 14-. No mental defense is bought. In 6E, at 5 pts per MCV, the M spends 50 pts on 8 OMCV and DMCV. The non-M spends 15 pts on 1 OMCV and 8 DMCV. No mental defense is bought. The non-M spends 35 less pts and will be hit on a 11-. Under both scenarios, the non-M could spend on mental defense. The 6E non-M is clearly much better off relative to the 5E non-M, and it's not even close. He spends 17 pts less AND is harder to hit given the same amount of mental defense purchased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD To get the exact same situation between 5E and 6E: In 5E, M buys 23 Ego. Non-M buys 14 Ego. Non-M spends 18 pts less and is hit on a 14- and has 14 pts defense vs most mental powers. M has 23 pts defense against most mental powers. In 6E, assuming Ego is 1 pt and MCV is 5 pts, M buys 23 Ego, 8 OMCV and 8 DMCV for a total of 63 pts. Non-M buys 14 Ego, 1 OMCV and 5 DMCV for a total of 4 pts. Non-M is in the EXACT same situation as in 5E relative to the M and has the EXACT same chance of being hit and has the EXACT same mental defense, but has spent 41 pts less relative to 5E. If MCV were 4 pts each, the relative difference would be 31 pts. If MCV were 3 pts each, the relative difference would be 21 pts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD To get the exact same situation between 5E and 6E: In 5E, M buys 23 Ego. Non-M buys 14 Ego. Non-M spends 18 pts less and is hit on a 14- and has 14 pts defense vs most mental powers. M has 23 pts defense against most mental powers. In 6E, assuming Ego is 1 pt and MCV is 5 pts, M buys 23 Ego, 8 OMCV and 8 DMCV for a total of 63 pts. Non-M buys 14 Ego, 1 OMCV and 5 DMCV for a total of 4 pts. Non-M is in the EXACT same situation as in 5E relative to the M and has the EXACT same chance of being hit and has the EXACT same mental defense, but has spent 41 pts less relative to 5E. If MCV were 4 pts each, the relative difference would be 31 pts. If MCV were 3 pts each, the relative difference would be 21 pts. And then the Mentalist buys up his DCV without buying up his OCV, since all of his offensive powers are based on OMCV, saving him points over the Non-Mentalist... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD And then the Mentalist buys up his DCV without buying up his OCV' date=' since all of his offensive powers are based on OMCV, saving him points over the Non-Mentalist...[/quote'] Would suck if he had to pick up a gun somewhere during the scenario. It's a lot harder to pickup the mind control helment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Would suck if he had to pick up a gun somewhere during the scenario. It's a lot harder to pickup the mind control helment. That depends entirely on the game being played. It could be really easy to find a Psi-Helmet in my Psychic Wars campaign, compared to guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netzilla Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Why is it in-concept for an "iron willed" character (mentalist or non) to have a 1 mOCV when the "average willed" character would have a 3? Is it really really in-concept for an "iron willed" character to be practially unable to: use a Psi-Amplifier Helmet use a Ring of Mind Reading participate in combat on the 'Dream Plain' etc? Any of the above devices/environments could allow a non-mentalist to participate offensively in mental combat. It seems odd that someone with an "iron will" would be worse at this than the averatge person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Why is it in-concept for an "iron willed" character (mentalist or non) to have a 1 mOCV when the "average willed" character would have a 3? Is it really really in-concept for an "iron willed" character to be practially unable to: use a Psi-Amplifier Helmet use a Ring of Mind Reading participate in combat on the 'Dream Plain' etc? Any of the above devices/environments could allow a non-mentalist to participate offensively in mental combat. It seems odd that someone with an "iron will" would be worse at this than the averatge person. You could give him a OMCV of 3 and there would still be a sizable imbalance between 5 and 6E. Besides, there are plenty of characters who are so firmly grounded in reality that while it's hard for others to affect their minds, they can't grasp the idea of mental combat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD You could give him a OMCV of 3 and there would still be a sizable imbalance between 5 and 6E. Besides, there are plenty of characters who are so firmly grounded in reality that while it's hard for others to affect their minds, they can't grasp the idea of mental combat. Cool. Sounds like a great character concept. And one that is easier to play under 6e than 5e. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Character Concept Realization... novel idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Cool. Sounds like a great character concept. And one that is easier to play under 6e than 5e. I'm not worried about the concept itself, I'm merely worried about balance effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I'm not worried about the concept itself' date=' I'm merely worried about balance effects. [/quote'] Don't see any myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD The System is internally consistent. I see no balance issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Don't see any myself. 41 pts difference compared to 5E status quo is pretty sizable to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Maybe it's 5E that was unbalanced in that regards. And you're guessing at point costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Maybe it's 5E that was unbalanced in that regards. And you're guessing at point costs. That's why I gave my assumptions in post 153 of this thread. The difference should be 21-41 pts assuming 3-5 pt costs for MCV. Somehow I doubt very much the cost will be less than 3 or greater than 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD All I see is someone who was able to sell something he wasn't going to use, buy something he was, and create a character to concept. I call that a win. The System Is Not My Babysitter. I decide what balances and unbalances my game. What I have now is more options, more choices, and am better able to realize concepts and characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I'm wondering why comparing 5E to 6E is even relevant. Unless you plan on playing both editions at once in the same game.... 6E just needs to compare costs to 6E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netzilla Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Another thing to consider is that (at least IMC) selling back a characteristic is the equivalent of taking a Complication (fka Disadvantage). So, as a GM, it's my job to occasionally put the character into a situation where they are inconvenienced by the low characteristic. For example, in 5th edition, if a character sold their COM back to a 2, I would occasionally put them in a situation where COM makes a tangible difference. I don't see any reason to create an exception for mOCV. So, sure the PC who sells their mOCV down to a 1 saves X points over the normal character who has 3 mOCV but I'll do my best to make sure that PC gets X points worth of mOCV trouble for it. There's your balancing factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I'm wondering why comparing 5E to 6E is even relevant. Unless you plan on playing both editions at once in the same game.... 6E just needs to compare costs to 6E. It directly changes the balance of power between character types. There's less reason to play a mentalist if it's a lot cheaper to counter your abilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD To me "will of iron" suggests more EGO and maybe Mental DEF, not DMCV. A high DMCV is more of a "slippery mind" than a strong mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajackson Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD There's less reason to play a mentalist if it's a lot cheaper to counter your abilities. True, but unless DMCV costs 2 or less or the game has a lot of attacks vs DMCV and non-mental defenses I doubt people will buy up DMCV anyway, mental defense is generally a better investment, and that's not really a change from 5e. In 5e, if I wanted to make a character who was mentally tough, but not a mentalist, I might take EGO 18(16) and 5 mental defense (with figs, increased to 9), for a total investment of 21 points. In 6e, I would take ego 18 (8), 9 mental defense (9) for a total investment of 17, and can then either buy +3 DMCV, or I can just decide that the difference between being hit on 13- and being hit on 16- is irrelevant and bump my mental defense up to 13. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD True' date=' but unless DMCV costs 2 or less or the game has a lot of attacks vs DMCV and non-mental defenses I doubt people will buy up DMCV anyway, mental defense is generally a better investment, and that's not really a change from 5e.[/quote'] Not necessarily. For the same reason people buy DCV instead of PD/ED. Often it's just better not to be hit in the first place rather than reducing damage. It depends on where on the bell curve the attack is taking place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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