Alternative systems for mental powers

[prestidigitator]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

Let's not forget that subtle mental power uses need to be able to stay effective for a long period of time. That's one very good thing about the current structure: if you need less Effect, the same roll will give penalties to the Breakout Roll so that the likely period of enthralment (so to speak) moves down on the Time Chart.

 

I've got the vague notion that too much depends on the target's Ego at the moment, but I'll have to give it some further thought. Maybe giving a whole separate Characteristic similar to Stun and Body--and possibly another one mirroring Rec as well--would be an idea. That could allow this sort of cumulative effect without having to resort to an Adjustment-like solution. Once you're "knocked out", it'll take you longer to Recover, bumping the Recovery Period down on the Time Chart.... (Very, very sketchy idea in its infancy here.)

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

I agree with the original intention of the thread: I don't care for mental powers as is right now either. Another alternative popped into my head while reading through here. Bear with me, gonna 'think out loud' for a sec...

 

When you're stronger than someone else, you can make them move by overcoming their muscles. Frex, my uncles who loved to play "Stop hitting yourself!" with me when i was in first grade and they in high school. The game already has STR vs STR rules. Could we adapt a similar concept for mental powers?

 

Don't base mind control on EB, base it on telekinesis. The STR of the mental telekinesis, or MTK, would have to overcome some mental strength of the target, whether that's based on EGO, INT, or something else (or both?). Have a standard STR type duel for domination.

 

For mental illusions, really what we're talking about is making them react to false sense input. How about we base it upon the other power built to dominate senses, Flash? As was said in the original version of transform, the logic is that if we have the power to utterly destroy something, why not alter it instead. Modify flash to give specific input rather than just a blank destuction.

 

Here's the one you'll really hate: telepathy based upon perception. A special form of detect with a perception roll required to find and read the mind, with different levels of being better hidden, ie penalties to the perception roll.

 

This is right off the top of my head, and details would need to be worked out, but it's a start.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

Here's the one you'll really hate: telepathy based upon perception. A special form of detect with a perception roll required to find and read the mind' date=' with different levels of being better hidden, ie penalties to the perception roll.[/quote']

 

On the 6e forums, I rewrote some of the Mental Powers (specifically, Mind Link, Mind Scan, and Telepathy) using the Enhanced Senses rules.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

On the 6e forums' date=' I rewrote some of the Mental Powers (specifically, Mind Link, Mind Scan, and Telepathy) using the Enhanced Senses rules. [/quote']

 

 

...and here's the link!

 

The concerns that many seem to have with mental powers are the all or nothing approach they take, the mechanic for 'breakout' and the precice mechanic for obtaining information through telepathy.

 

I feel telepathy ought to be a 2 stage process: a power like 'attack' that establishes a connection and then a sense like skill for actually rootling out the information: a human memory is a VAST store of data, and even if you have unimpeded access to it (through successful power use) it will still take considerable skill and possibly effort to find the information you are after: it is like being given the keys to the library and being asked to find a specific poem - only the library uses some weird indexing system that is different from every other library. I'm not sure if I'd just go for a 'straight' sense as it does not really give an opponent the ability to resist - either with 'willpower' (not necessarily EGO) or even mental defence.

 

I also think that mind control should have 2 levels of control: total (the target does what is intended), and partial (the target does what it is told, but not necessarily what is intended). That is more just the way I see MC working - but if it is not built into the mechanic it should be something that can easily be accomplished with power modifiers.

 

I'm also not sure if I'd require the current 'you have to decide what level you are after when you attack' mechanism, favouring a system that simply established a mental connection that you could strengthen as much as necessary (subject to the opponent's attempts to escape.

 

So, does that cover the bases as to what we are after or have I left stuff out? Don't worry about mechanics yet - let us define the principles we want those mechanics to embody.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

I agree with the original intention of the thread: I don't care for mental powers as is right now either. Another alternative popped into my head while reading through here. Bear with me, gonna 'think out loud' for a sec...

 

When you're stronger than someone else, you can make them move by overcoming their muscles. Frex, my uncles who loved to play "Stop hitting yourself!" with me when i was in first grade and they in high school. The game already has STR vs STR rules. Could we adapt a similar concept for mental powers?

 

Don't base mind control on EB, base it on telekinesis. The STR of the mental telekinesis, or MTK, would have to overcome some mental strength of the target, whether that's based on EGO, INT, or something else (or both?). Have a standard STR type duel for domination.

 

For mental illusions, really what we're talking about is making them react to false sense input. How about we base it upon the other power built to dominate senses, Flash? As was said in the original version of transform, the logic is that if we have the power to utterly destroy something, why not alter it instead. Modify flash to give specific input rather than just a blank destuction.

 

Here's the one you'll really hate: telepathy based upon perception. A special form of detect with a perception roll required to find and read the mind, with different levels of being better hidden, ie penalties to the perception roll.

 

This is right off the top of my head, and details would need to be worked out, but it's a start.

 

 

I quite like that! You can already use physical TK to control someone's actions (but not their thoughts), so it makes sense to use an analogue to control their mind.

 

Thinking aloud, probably something like TK+BOECV cost - which would be 10 'STR' per 30 points....hmm...that's a mite expensive...20 STR for 60 points - a lot of mentalists would be effectively untouchable (assuming mental defence also got factored in).

 

It is interesting though because it opens the arena for more 'mental combat' - maybe using maneouvres and such...hmmm....

[director13]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

On the 6e forums' date=' I rewrote some of the Mental Powers (specifically, Mind Link, Mind Scan, and Telepathy) using the Enhanced Senses rules. [/quote']

 

The first part of your original post was exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned having the mental powers be a subset of social interactions! Thank you.

[torchwolf]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

Ok, another idea:

 

1. Double the base cost of mental powers (10 point per 1d6) and make them cumulative.

 

2. Scrap the breakout roll and instead allow the target to make a breakout roll but rolling 1d6 per 5 EGO, and subtracting that from the cumulative total.

 

3. Effect levels work at 10, 20, 30 and 40 points: never mind what your EGO is (i.e. not EGO, EGO+10 etc)*

 

You could make that a half phase non-attack action before the power takes effect (i.e. before it reaches the appropriate threshold) and a 0 time automatic action afterwards. You can then top up your total to prevent a fast breakout as you need to with another attack. Breakout ONLY occurs on the phases of the target.

 

So a 60 point mind control would be 6d6, average 21 points.

 

Say you are after an +10 command (Find somewhere to hide and take no further part in this combat), so you need 20 points of effect. You roll 6d6 and get (say) 22 points.

 

The mind control takes effect, but nothing will happen until the target's next phase. On the next phase the target has they roll 3d6 for their EGO/5 and get (say) 14. Your effect total is down to 8 points, so the control is 'broken' BUT you can top it up on your next attack: say you get 21 this time, your total is now (21+8) = 29 points, and the mind control takes effect. However the target can not run and hide until their next phase and the 3d6 roll (this time you get 9) takes the total effect back down to 20 points and this time the mind control holds, and they have to obey.

 

Next phase they will still be in the thrall of the command, but will break out unless the attack is topped up.

 

You might allow an EGO haymaker for breakouts (remember you can not more than double base damage) whilst you are still under the threshold value.

 

You'd need to double mental defence costs to make it fair.

 

Requires tinkering because, otherwise, anyone with 30+ EGO is effectively immune to most mental attacks, in a 60 AP game (telepathy and mental illusions can still effect them even though they will almost certainly break out next phase.

 

You may like to allow characters to abort to breakout rolls.

 

 

*This is because you are already taking EGO into account with the new breakout rolls.

 

 

You can also already push EGO for the purpose of breaking out of BOECV Entangles that work vs EGO, and your Breakout logic is consistent with that similar mechanic. Very cool. I think the cumulative part should be optional though.

 

 

Related idea - Mental Stunning:

 

If extra points of effect exceeds target's EGO, target is treated as Stunned, recovering normally (overwhelmed by mental shout, confusing illusions, etc.).

 

 

Let's not forget that subtle mental power uses need to be able to stay effective for a long period of time. That's one very good thing about the current structure: if you need less Effect, the same roll will give penalties to the Breakout Roll so that the likely period of enthralment (so to speak) moves down on the Time Chart.

 

I've got the vague notion that too much depends on the target's Ego at the moment, but I'll have to give it some further thought. Maybe giving a whole separate Characteristic similar to Stun and Body--and possibly another one mirroring Rec as well--would be an idea. That could allow this sort of cumulative effect without having to resort to an Adjustment-like solution. Once you're "knocked out", it'll take you longer to Recover, bumping the Recovery Period down on the Time Chart.... (Very, very sketchy idea in its infancy here.)

 

 

Some options:

 

Option 1: One step down Time Chart per +5 extra points of effect. This gives the same odds for Breakout Rolls (currently, Breakout Rolls are at -1 per +5 extra points of effect).

 

Option 2: Comparing the Time Chart to the KO Recovery Chart might give another interval option if modified for Mental Powers; treating extra points of effect as guideline for the interval of Breakout.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

When you're stronger than someone else, you can make them move by overcoming their muscles. Frex, my uncles who loved to play "Stop hitting yourself!" with me when i was in first grade and they in high school. The game already has STR vs STR rules. Could we adapt a similar concept for mental powers?

 

Don't base mind control on EB, base it on telekinesis. The STR of the mental telekinesis, or MTK, would have to overcome some mental strength of the target, whether that's based on EGO, INT, or something else (or both?). Have a standard STR type duel for domination.

 

This was one of my possibilities also. I really, really like it. I think that its cost could easily be based on TK, but to avoid mental blocks (NPI) over it it shouldn't be called that.

 

For mental illusions, really what we're talking about is making them react to false sense input. How about we base it upon the other power built to dominate senses, Flash? As was said in the original version of transform, the logic is that if we have the power to utterly destroy something, why not alter it instead. Modify flash to give specific input rather than just a blank destuction.

 

My idea was to tweak Images. I'm still not sure it won't work.

 

For those who have either or both, The Ultimate Skill and The Ultimate Mentalist have a sort of slightly-incompatible convergence on Skills as Mental Powers. In my thread I had suggested a couple of possible Skills (primarily to replace Presence Attacks, but....) one of which was Command. Which, if you buy it as Based On ECV per TUM/TUS, and use it through a telepathic link (built as an Enhanced Sense), you -- almost -- would have a Mind Control-like ability. Optionally, buy it based on EGO instead of PRE.

 

I really need to finish writing up my portion.