Alternative systems for mental powers

[Sean Waters]

This is just thinking aloud, you understand, but I have a couple of problems with the way mental powers work. Don’t get me wrong, I like the system, I just, well, feel it may not be as flexible as it could be. Case in point, once you have enough ‘mental power’ to overcome your opponent’s EGO (usually 3-6 dice worth) each additional level of effect only cuts in every 3 dice, on average. It just seems a little clunky. Another problem is breakout – it is all or nothing and often effectively cripples mental powers. Another problem is interpretation: what level should information be ‘stored’ at for telepathy, or what levels of mind control should be required to get someone to stand still in combat?

 

So, thoughts…

 

1. The adjustment method for Mind Control: Buy Ego drain with a limitation that EGO is ONLY drained for the purpose of obeying commands from the ‘drainer’. Once your EGO gets down to 0 or less you have to start making EGO rolls or you do as you are told – the lower you go the harder it is to resist. You should get a bonus of +2 on your roll if you are asked to do something difficult or dangerous, +4 if you are asked to do something potentially lethal and +8 if you are asked to do something that is almost certainly fatal.

2. The adjustment method for Mental Illusions: same as above but drain INT instead: once you get to zero and fail a roll you are perceiving hallucinations (as INT controls perception); you can not properly interact with reality. If you want damage, also drain STUN or BODY. The specific illusion is really just sfx; what happens is what always happens if you have very low INT: you take no action unless you make an INT roll.

3. The adjustment method for Telepathy: same as above but also buy Mind Link: once down to 0 or less EGO and you fail a roll you will be open to the mind link and give any information requested. In fact Mind link is probably quite a good idea of all these powers. You can get a bonus on your roll not based on how 'deeply buried' the information is but on how embarrassing or harmful it is to you.

 

This sort of uses existing systems in different ways, but has a similar effect to mental powers: against an opponent without appropriate defences, you can always get them to do anything – given enough time. Instead of drain you could use suppress for an ‘active control’, and if you do use drain then you can use all the normal advantages, for instance a slow fade rate for long term control.

 

Once you have one ‘mental power’ under this system, it is easy (and relatively cheap) to get more; just take the ‘multiple effects’ advantage: you can drain EGO, INT, STUN, BODY, even DEX (for a mental attack that attacks the nervous system) or a power (for an attack that shuts down mutant powers, or whatever).

 

There are no breakout rolls but you do get to make new rolls to resist commands – but success does not break the control, just allows you to resist that command. Allies can help someone under the effect of these powers with an Aid or Heal.

 

I have other ideas, but I’d like to get comments on this first.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

Uhhh.... that's pretty much the missing link I was looking for (relating to my Mental Powers thread on the 6e forums).

[Utech]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

Those are interesting alternative ways to handle Mental Powers. I wouldn't use them, but they're interesting.

 

It reminds me of Super Skills built with Limitations on Powers.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

It is an interesting idea, but I don't know if Mental Powers have to be fixed that drastically. Honestly, the one problem I have with them is that they make it too difficult to effect a target, and allowing an immediate Breakout Roll after the mentalist has already had to deal with the target's Ego twice (an ECV attack roll and overcoming the target's Ego+X on the Effect Roll) just strikes me as ridiculous.

 

Allowing mentalists to use the Cumulative Advantage might fix part of the problem, actually. But I've toyed with the idea of simply removing the very first Breakout Roll altogether as well, either instead or in addition (allow Breakout Rolls starting after a full Phase of the Mental Power's effectiveness--or maybe even only after the first Turn, but I think that'd require a bit of balance being added back in somehow, like allowing the subject to make a Breakout Roll early only if they Push their Ego or something).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

Double post - removed

[Sean Waters]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

I don't like that the breakout roll is all or nothing either. I'd fix it like this, if that was all that worried me...

 

1. You can roll on getting hit with a mental power to throw off the effect immediately at -2 on your EGO roll. If you fail you can try next PS 12 with a straight roll, then each step up the time chart at +2 per step. If a mental power is maintained, i.e. the attacker pays END every phase, the breakout roll remains at -2, but can be made every PS12. Once the power is no longer maintained, the effect proceeds as above.

 

2. Breakout is not all or nothing: if you make the roll then the level of effect drops by one level, and one additional level for each +2 the roll is made by. Once the level is down to 'EGO', any further success breaks the effect.

 

Bearing in mind that a lot of mental commands will have excess points (which also reduce a breakout roll -1 per 5 points rolled over effect level), most targets won;t have a great chance to breakout immediately. You could even make that first roll at -4 if you wanted.

[director13]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

 

1. The adjustment method for Mind Control: Buy Ego drain with a limitation that EGO is ONLY drained for the purpose of obeying commands from the ‘drainer’. Once your EGO gets down to 0 or less you have to start making EGO rolls or you do as you are told – the lower you go the harder it is to resist. You should get a bonus of +2 on your roll if you are asked to do something difficult or dangerous, +4 if you are asked to do something potentially lethal and +8 if you are asked to do something that is almost certainly fatal.

2. The adjustment method for Mental Illusions: same as above but drain INT instead: once you get to zero and fail a roll you are perceiving hallucinations (as INT controls perception); you can not properly interact with reality. If you want damage, also drain STUN or BODY. The specific illusion is really just sfx; what happens is what always happens if you have very low INT: you take no action unless you make an INT roll.

3. The adjustment method for Telepathy: same as above but also buy Mind Link: once down to 0 or less EGO and you fail a roll you will be open to the mind link and give any information requested. In fact Mind link is probably quite a good idea of all these powers. You can get a bonus on your roll not based on how 'deeply buried' the information is but on how embarrassing or harmful it is to you.

 

 

I like the first one. A lot. I would do it based on PREsence, actually, because I house ruled EGO out as a resistance to PREsence attacks (makes fear powers more useful, I found). #2 looks good as written.

I'm less sure about item #3. That feels like it would take the most testing to check out.

 

About all three, I think they should be piped into a social skill resolution system for conflict, barter, seduction, etc, as powers that give "unfair advantages" to mundane tasks accomplished with skills and characteristics. (And maneuvers, but I'm funny like that).

[GamePhil]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

1. The adjustment method for Mind Control: Buy Ego drain with a limitation that EGO is ONLY drained for the purpose of obeying commands from the ‘drainer’. Once your EGO gets down to 0 or less you have to start making EGO rolls or you do as you are told – the lower you go the harder it is to resist. You should get a bonus of +2 on your roll if you are asked to do something difficult or dangerous' date=' +4 if you are asked to do something potentially lethal and +8 if you are asked to do something that is almost certainly fatal.[/quote']

 

Probably reasonable as an alternative to Mental Powers, but I don't see anything that makes me want to take them out of the game. I'd probably call that a -0 Limitation, maybe a -1/4, but that's ok. I like the fact that it's not as permanent as Transform but can give just as a straightforward method of controlling the target.

 

All in all, a good candidate for "so obvious it's brilliant". I certainly never thought of it, but now that it's mentioned, it's very straightforward. Good deal.

 

One possible flaw in 6E: One of Steve's proposed changes was "no Characteristics below 0". He hasn't verified on the boards if that's going to be the case. Still, after this Drain they have a 9- chance of being able to resist you, and that's not all bad.

[GamePhil]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

And then, and then we eliminate Stun in favor of simply Draining CON! And Presence Attacks in favor of Draining PRE! Eliminate END and instead use a Drain Side Effect on... well, CON currently, but another stat for your stamina could be put in.

 

Then, all Characteristics will give us some benefit and be used as a damage meter! Bwa ha ha ha! The possibilities are endless!

 

No, this is not some straw man criticism of the idea, I'm quite serious. Not that the rules should be changed to this, just that it could be made into a really neat set of house rules.

 

[schir1964]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

Your idea seems sound.

 

The only thing I might add is another option for resisting commands:

Have a mental battle via EGO vs EGO Roll or DMCV vs OMCV Roll.

 

Target success means a reduction in influence.

Attacker success means retaining current level of influence.

 

Just Pondering

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

Your idea seems sound.

 

The only thing I might add is another option for resisting commands:

Have a mental battle via EGO vs EGO Roll or DMCV vs OMCV Roll.

 

Target success means a reduction in influence.

Attacker success means retaining current level of influence.

 

Just Pondering

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I wouldn't make it part of the 'power', but you could potentially do that with something like RSR on the power, or part of it. You could also introduce breakout rolls with a limitation like 'All drained EGO returns if target makes an EGO roll'. You might not want to....

[prestidigitator]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

Your idea seems sound.

 

The only thing I might add is another option for resisting commands:

Have a mental battle via EGO vs EGO Roll or DMCV vs OMCV Roll.

 

Target success means a reduction in influence.

Attacker success means retaining current level of influence.

 

Just Pondering

 

Ooh. Actually, now I am envisioning the "breakout" as a whole mental duel (attacks, "damage", Dodges, etc.) that takes place between the target and the mentalist in parallel with what is happening in the "real world". In place of Stun, the mentalist's Effect Roll on the original Mental Power. If the mentalist isn't actively maintaining the Mental Power, it means they can't actively "Dodge" and such. Hmm. Freaky, but interesting. (Rep while I'm at it.)

[schir1964]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

Ooh. Actually' date=' now I am envisioning the "breakout" as a whole mental duel...[/quote']

Yes, that is exactly what I was thinking when I offered it as a possible option, but it may not have come across very well.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

This is just thinking aloud, you understand, but I have a couple of problems with the way mental powers work. Don’t get me wrong, I like the system, I just, well, feel it may not be as flexible as it could be. Case in point, once you have enough ‘mental power’ to overcome your opponent’s EGO (usually 3-6 dice worth) each additional level of effect only cuts in every 3 dice, on average. It just seems a little clunky. Another problem is breakout – it is all or nothing and often effectively cripples mental powers. Another problem is interpretation: what level should information be ‘stored’ at for telepathy, or what levels of mind control should be required to get someone to stand still in combat?

 

So, thoughts…

 

1. The adjustment method for Mind Control: Buy Ego drain with a limitation that EGO is ONLY drained for the purpose of obeying commands from the ‘drainer’. Once your EGO gets down to 0 or less you have to start making EGO rolls or you do as you are told – the lower you go the harder it is to resist. You should get a bonus of +2 on your roll if you are asked to do something difficult or dangerous, +4 if you are asked to do something potentially lethal and +8 if you are asked to do something that is almost certainly fatal.

2. The adjustment method for Mental Illusions: same as above but drain INT instead: once you get to zero and fail a roll you are perceiving hallucinations (as INT controls perception); you can not properly interact with reality. If you want damage, also drain STUN or BODY. The specific illusion is really just sfx; what happens is what always happens if you have very low INT: you take no action unless you make an INT roll.

3. The adjustment method for Telepathy: same as above but also buy Mind Link: once down to 0 or less EGO and you fail a roll you will be open to the mind link and give any information requested. In fact Mind link is probably quite a good idea of all these powers. You can get a bonus on your roll not based on how 'deeply buried' the information is but on how embarrassing or harmful it is to you.

 

This sort of uses existing systems in different ways, but has a similar effect to mental powers: against an opponent without appropriate defences, you can always get them to do anything – given enough time. Instead of drain you could use suppress for an ‘active control’, and if you do use drain then you can use all the normal advantages, for instance a slow fade rate for long term control.

 

Once you have one ‘mental power’ under this system, it is easy (and relatively cheap) to get more; just take the ‘multiple effects’ advantage: you can drain EGO, INT, STUN, BODY, even DEX (for a mental attack that attacks the nervous system) or a power (for an attack that shuts down mutant powers, or whatever).

 

There are no breakout rolls but you do get to make new rolls to resist commands – but success does not break the control, just allows you to resist that command. Allies can help someone under the effect of these powers with an Aid or Heal.

 

I have other ideas, but I’d like to get comments on this first.

I like the general idea, but one thing bugs me: These mechanics create "phantom characteristics" in that you have to keep track of the drained EGO/INT wrt the mental power, but the character's actual EGO/INT is unchanged. And what happens if you are the focus of one mentalist's Mind Control attack and another's Telepathy at the same time? Does that create two separate EGO drain pools? Or are they helping one another to affect you faster, by both of them draining the same phantom characteristic?

 

It would seem better to me to have an actual characteristic to affect. Either actually lower the EGO/INT, or have it affect something else. Perhaps Mental Defense would work? It seems like that is what you are using the drain for anyway -- wearing down the target's defenses in order to gain access to the target's psyche. That assumes that everyone has some level of mental defense. Normals would have only a base level that would be fairly easy to overcome, while PCs (and especially mentalist PCs) would tend to buy up MD and require more effort.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

Hmm. And expanding the idea of the mental duel for Breakouts, each Turn (or Phase maybe) of the mental battle could take an increasing step on the Time Chart in the "real world". So just like you get Breakout Rolls less and less often in the standard system, you'd get a chance to "damage" the mental effect less and less often in the duel version. Hmm....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

I like the general idea, but one thing bugs me: These mechanics create "phantom characteristics" in that you have to keep track of the drained EGO/INT wrt the mental power, but the character's actual EGO/INT is unchanged. And what happens if you are the focus of one mentalist's Mind Control attack and another's Telepathy at the same time? Does that create two separate EGO drain pools? Or are they helping one another to affect you faster, by both of them draining the same phantom characteristic?

 

It would seem better to me to have an actual characteristic to affect. Either actually lower the EGO/INT, or have it affect something else. Perhaps Mental Defense would work? It seems like that is what you are using the drain for anyway -- wearing down the target's defenses in order to gain access to the target's psyche. That assumes that everyone has some level of mental defense. Normals would have only a base level that would be fairly easy to overcome, while PCs (and especially mentalist PCs) would tend to buy up MD and require more effort.

 

The way I envisage it one mentalist with both mind control and telepathy drains down the 'virtual characteristic' once and then can use any of his powers. However, two separate attackers would each have to drain down the virtual characteristic: it is not a single pool, like Stun.

 

However, you'll bear in mind that this is an off the cuff idea rather than something that has been playtested and, you know, properly thought through - this is me we are talking about here

 

Bearing in mind (as has been pointed out) that this wouldn't work under 6e as we understand it (because negative characteristics are changing) I'm working on an alternative version with a bit more structure that would function as a separate power rather than just using existing mechanics as this does.

 

At present your EGO is a sort of ablative mental defence, under this system. I mean if there is a hang up on virtual characteristics and nomenclature we could even call it Ablative Mental Defence (AMD) - it just happens to be equal to EGO

[megaplayboy]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

I've suggested the EGO vs. EGO breakout roll before. Presumably a skilled mentalist could even buy levels with breakout rolls or apply levels with mental combat to their end of the roll-off. It would preserve the breakout roll(and perhaps it would default to the standard roll if the mentalist were distracted or using the same mental power on someone else that phase) while reducing the futility level for mentalist characters.

 

Of course, a lot of players hate mentalists, so I don't expect any major innovations which make them significantly more effective to actually be well-received generally.

[Christougher]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

I've been pondering tweaks/changes to mental powers myself. Since I don't have my notes, off the top of my head.

 

Make Mental Defense a figured Characteristic of EGO/5. Screws NND vs Mental Defense though.

 

Change the effect levels to multiples of EGO, making it worth the 2 points. Results would have to be tweaked some, but should align fairly close to normal combat - Exceeding the target's Mental Defense has a minimal effect like taking a few stun. Exceeding the target's EGO after Mental Defense has a noticable effect, like being Stunned. Doubling the target's EGO or more has a significant effect like a Knockout. For telepathy, these levels might be summed up as "Don't Mind, Don't Want, Don't Ever".

 

The optional maneuvers that allow you to increase Mental Defense just go away.

 

Add the Focus and Blank maneuvers. By Focusing on some particular image, song, or the like, the target can make an OECV vs OECV attack roll to block the attack. By attempting to Blank thier mind of thoughts, the target gets +3 DECV. Same as standard Block and Dodge maneuvers, applied to Mental Combat.

 

Replace the all-or-nothing breakout roll with a Resist maneuver. The victim gets to apply EGO/5 d6 to reduce the effect of the mental power. This turns it into a bit more of a tug of war. Tweaks may be necessary to allow the mentalist to reapply his attack iwthout becoming overpowering.

[Tasha]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

It is an interesting idea' date=' but I don't know if Mental Powers have to be fixed [i']that[/i] drastically. Honestly, the one problem I have with them is that they make it too difficult to effect a target, and allowing an immediate Breakout Roll after the mentalist has already had to deal with the target's Ego twice (an ECV attack roll and overcoming the target's Ego+X on the Effect Roll) just strikes me as ridiculous.

 

Allowing mentalists to use the Cumulative Advantage might fix part of the problem, actually. But I've toyed with the idea of simply removing the very first Breakout Roll altogether as well, either instead or in addition (allow Breakout Rolls starting after a full Phase of the Mental Power's effectiveness--or maybe even only after the first Turn, but I think that'd require a bit of balance being added back in somehow, like allowing the subject to make a Breakout Roll early only if they Push their Ego or something).

 

The reason that the target gets an immediate breakout roll is to make being mind controlled more palatable to players. Lets face it, noone likes being the target of any mental ability. Giving folk the ability to attempt to break out immediately gives the illusion that the Players still has some control over that character. When it stinks is when the players are the originator of the mental ability and their target immediately breaks out with that roll. Of course as a GM you could allow the PCs to get the immediate breakout roll and the NPCs a roll on their first phase.

 

My issue with Mental attacks is that they are really only effective if you have 10d6 or more of effect. Basically their scaling for non supers games stinks. There should be some way to get mental abilities to scale down better to fit in non supers games better. It's kind of ridiculous to have a mage that has a set of 30 pt attacks to suddenly need a 50pt power to have a chance of successfully using the power.

 

I am sure sure that I like the Drain EGO mechanic. it doesn't "feel" right to me.

 

don't know what the right answer is, but it's past 3am here. going to bed!

 

Tasha

[GamePhil]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

It is an interesting idea' date=' but I don't know if Mental Powers have to be fixed [i']that[/i] drastically.

 

The trouble is that currently, Mental Powers work on an all-or-nothing basis, barring taking Cumulative or using some other (perfectly acceptable) tricks. Either you hit the target and it works, and the target is under the influence for at least a Turn, or you hit the target and he breaks out immediately. Either unsatisfactory for the Mentalist, or unsatisfactory for the Victim. If it errs, it probably errs on the side of the Victim, but without a fundamental change to that mechanic, a change in either direction only changes the problem, it doesn't fix it.

 

So, yeah, I think some drastic changes or some optional, but fundamentally different, rules for running Mental Powers are not unreasonable. I prefer the "optional" approach, as it's not necessarily a problem for everyone.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

Maybe something that would have a high minimum cost, but give you something similar to a "mental grab", where you roll your EGO (or dice of ego) vs. the target's EGO (or dice of EGO), and your level of control affects how many dice or what bonus the target gets. For extra points you get bonuses to the power.

[schir1964]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

Maybe something that would have a high minimum cost' date=' but give you something similar to a "mental grab", where you roll your EGO (or dice of ego) vs. the target's EGO (or dice of EGO), and your level of control affects how many dice or what bonus the target gets. For extra points you get bonuses to the power.[/quote']

Again, this is what I was sort of getting at.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

Ok, another idea:

 

1. Double the base cost of mental powers (10 point per 1d6) and make them cumulative.

 

2. Scrap the breakout roll and instead allow the target to make a breakout roll but rolling 1d6 per 5 EGO, and subtracting that from the cumulative total.

 

3. Effect levels work at 10, 20, 30 and 40 points: never mind what your EGO is (i.e. not EGO, EGO+10 etc)*

 

You could make that a half phase non-attack action before the power takes effect (i.e. before it reaches the appropriate threshold) and a 0 time automatic action afterwards. You can then top up your total to prevent a fast breakout as you need to with another attack. Breakout ONLY occurs on the phases of the target.

 

So a 60 point mind control would be 6d6, average 21 points.

 

Say you are after an +10 command (Find somewhere to hide and take no further part in this combat), so you need 20 points of effect. You roll 6d6 and get (say) 22 points.

 

The mind control takes effect, but nothing will happen until the target's next phase. On the next phase the target has they roll 3d6 for their EGO/5 and get (say) 14. Your effect total is down to 8 points, so the control is 'broken' BUT you can top it up on your next attack: say you get 21 this time, your total is now (21+8) = 29 points, and the mind control takes effect. However the target can not run and hide until their next phase and the 3d6 roll (this time you get 9) takes the total effect back down to 20 points and this time the mind control holds, and they have to obey.

 

Next phase they will still be in the thrall of the command, but will break out unless the attack is topped up.

 

You might allow an EGO haymaker for breakouts (remember you can not more than double base damage) whilst you are still under the threshold value.

 

You'd need to double mental defence costs to make it fair.

 

Requires tinkering because, otherwise, anyone with 30+ EGO is effectively immune to most mental attacks, in a 60 AP game (telepathy and mental illusions can still effect them even though they will almost certainly break out next phase.

 

You may like to allow characters to abort to breakout rolls.

 

 

*This is because you are already taking EGO into account with the new breakout rolls.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

Well, since mental powers rules were consistent for the first 3 editions and will probably be consistent through 6th, I guess it's never too early to get started on version 3 of the rules.

 

I'd suggest the following criteria:

1. mental powers should be potentially effective at all cost levels(i.e., in a pulp game, fantasy game, sci fi game, or supers game)

2. breaking out of a mental power should be neither too easy nor too hard as a baseline.

3. You should get what you pay for, and what you pay for should be worthwhile by comparison with other powers or abilities (i.e., 20 points of mental power should be as worthwhile as 20 points of martial arts maneuvers; a 40 point mental power should be as worthwhile as a 40 point fireball spell, etc.)--another way of looking at it is, if you can kill or transform a normal instantly with that many points, you should be able to attain the maximum level of control/illusion/telepathy on a normal with that many points, too.

4. Mind Control should probably be inherently telepathic--needing to give verbal commands would be equivalent to incantations or visible.

5. PCs shouldn't be rewarded for being PCs, with the possible exceptions of being permitted to push and being allowed to argue their psych lims may be relevant. If they want to be able to break free more easily, they should have to pay for it...the rules shouldn't be skewed to make it so easy for them that it consequently sucks to be a mentalist.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Alternative systems for mental powers

 

Well' date=' since mental powers rules were consistent for the first 3 editions and will probably be consistent through 6th, I guess it's never too early to get started on version 3 of the rules.[/quote']

 

Sounds like a good reason to question the structure: perhaps Mind Control should not work on various levels, but be a single power that either works or does not - once in thrall you can be made to do ANYTHING but what you are made to do determines your breakout roll/frequency, thus being told to sit quietly and wait would have a very low chance of breakout, but if people started firing guns near you or you became aware that moving could save a friend's life, the breakout roll would increase.

 

I'd suggest the following criteria:

1. mental powers should be potentially effective at all cost levels(i.e., in a pulp game, fantasy game, sci fi game, or supers game)

 

Then making mental powers cumulative makes sense - they can be effective at any power level, but they will take longer in low powered games.

 

 

2. breaking out of a mental power should be neither too easy nor too hard as a baseline.

 

...and what is too easy? In fact why have breakouts? If you draw an analogy with physical attacks, you can not break out of unconsciousness.

 

Ignoring that for the moment it makes sense for someone to be be able to break out eventually - so some rule for the effect eroding (or being eroded over time) makes sense.

 

I think that many people can also get behind the idea of 'snapping out of it', but personally I prefer the idea of the target accumulating a resistance total rather than having to make an all-or-nothing breakout roll.

 

3. You should get what you pay for' date=' and what you pay for should be worthwhile by comparison with other powers or abilities (i.e., 20 points of mental power should be as worthwhile as 20 points of martial arts maneuvers; a 40 point mental power should be as worthwhile as a 40 point fireball spell, etc.)--another way of looking at it is, if you can kill or transform a normal instantly with that many points, you should be able to attain the maximum level of control/illusion/telepathy on a normal with that many points, too.[/quote']

 

Agreed - I've tried to make the suggestions I've come up with mean that you need 2-4 attacks to be effective - roughly the same as it would take to KO someone with physical attacks.

 

4. Mind Control should probably be inherently telepathic--needing to give verbal commands would be equivalent to incantations or visible.

 

I disagree strongly: mind control would simply make the target mind pliable, but you would still need to communicate with it. if you want telepathic communication, buy telepathy: powers should be kept as pure as possible. You do not necessarily have to incant - you could type commands or send them by radio, or your own (separately bought) telepathy - you only need to exceed EGO.

 

5. PCs shouldn't be rewarded for being PCs' date=' with the possible exceptions of being permitted to push and being allowed to argue their psych lims may be relevant. If they want to be able to break free more easily, they should have to pay for it...the rules shouldn't be skewed to make it so easy for them that it consequently sucks to be a mentalist.[/quote']

 

I agree. Psych Lims and even simple background can and should affect someone's susceptibility to mental powers: being commanded to kill your own child should be more of an ask than being commanded to kill a complete stranger, or someone you actively dislike. I'd probably be inclined to build that into the breaklout mechanic though.