Alternate Advantage and Limitation configuration

[Narf the Mouse]

"Hold up", said the wizard. "I'll try my best spell. I can only cast it once a day. I've never used it before..."

 

"What does it do?"

 

"Just a second, I'm checking my spellbook...It says, 'Three dee six plus wun kay dee'."

 

Hero System is awesome. Hero system can simulate anything...Except, by RAW, spells and powers that are more powerful *Because* they are limited.

Maybe the wizard needs a particular Spellbook, or can only cast it once a day or must gesture and speak.

 

...So, for those cases, I propose the following option, illustrated with an example:

 

Limitations don't change the cost of a power. They increase the 'power' of the power. Some limitations are worth half as much as normal.

 

As part of this play style, 'disablement' powers become more useful.

 

Say you've got a 30 CP EB 6d6 ND. 'Firebolt'. It requires complex Incantations and Gestures (-1). It now does 12d6 ND

 

Or, a 1 Charge 'Spell of Uttermost Destruction'. It does 18d6, but once it's used, that's 30 CP that's useless.

 

Or, for Armour, Normal Mass and Real Armour. -3/4s. Your 30 CP of PD/ED (10/10) is now 17/17.

 

5 CP of Entangle makes the first spell useless.

 

The second spell is useless if it misses. And you don't get a second try.

 

The last? 'Telekinesis, Restricted Path, Straight Down ("Gravity") -1'. Or an 'Armour-Eating Spell, 'Only Vs. Real Armour'.

 

The result would be lethal and require multiple types of counter-measures, I think - Perfect for those sorcerer and wizard duels.

 

Also, it's (AFAIK) compatible with 'Normal' limitations.

 

As for Advantages? Well, just treat the CP bought as an AP limit and you're done for this system.

 

Thoughts?

[Tasha]

Re: Alternate Advantage and Limitation configuration

 

There's no reason the existing system can't be made to work in a way that is close to this. It just requires the GM's permission to go above the campaign limits.

[tarragon]

Re: Alternate Advantage and Limitation configuration

 

I still think back fondly on the version of variable limitation from (I think) the first edition of Fantasy Hero. It wasn't one of a fixed set of limitations like it is now, it acted like you describe. If I recall right it was an advantage to take but then you could pile on limitations as you needed. The real points stayed the same the limitations gave you more active points.

 

It was great because you could get something that felt more like the way magic is sometimes presented. If you have a Summon with variable limitation that with no limitations can summon an imp. If you take some extra time and gestures you could summon a low end full demon. With a month of time, 20 people chanting, 1000 gold worth of expendable foci, and a human sacrifice you can plop Azmodeus right in the middle of an enemy army.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Alternate Advantage and Limitation configuration

 

In FH you almost always have a lot of limitations anyway: it is not uncommon to have +4 or more in limtiations.

 

The problem is that if every spell gets the 'advantage' of counting RP as AP, you massively boost the power potential of virtually every spell in the game.

 

Think about what you want here: a bunch of 'normal' spells and one or two specialist 'power' spells with mucho limitations.

 

Don't change the rules of the game - that has very far reaching consequences - just change the build protocols for wizards: they get to use spells up to (say) 30 AP and can have (say) 2 spells up to 50 AP.

 

That means every wizard will have a couple of 'signature' spells - which I think is a nice touch, and helps to make every wizard distinctive. The actual AP limit only matters in terms of the rules if you are putting your spells in a framework. Assuming signature spells have to have at least -1 in limitations over and above that for normal spells, and normal spells have at least -1 in limitations already, buying a signature spell on the cost points I suggested above would mean +7 real points for a signature spell. That does not sound unreasonable, and in practice the actual cost might be a lot less. Telling players 'you can only have 2 signature spells' will make them really think about what they want their wizard to be, and will define the playstyle - you could have a stealthmage or a battlemage or a travel mage, but no one mage could be the best at all 3.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: Alternate Advantage and Limitation configuration

 

IIRC, campaign limits are not part of the RAW, so you can do what you describe easily enough.

 

A flexible magic system could have a fixed "Variable Limitations -2" with the requirement that the limitations must come from a list including e.g. Extra Time, Concentration, Increased END Cost, Gestures, Incantations, Requires a Skill Roll, and Focus: Staff. The campaign limit would be in RP rather than AP. You could then allow certain spells to take an extra limitation: Sacrifice, which allows greater AP for the same RP. The value of the limitation could vary according to the value of the sacrifice; e.g. sacrificing a dove or a jewel might give -1/4, while sacrificing a virgin or a powerful magic item might give -1.

 

- Klaus

[Sean Waters]

Re: Alternate Advantage and Limitation configuration

 

Horrible story: way back, at school, I was running a DnD campaign and there was this chap (Hi, Simon!) who was playing an evil character - something from White Dwarf (as was, before Warhammer) called a Demonist, or somesuch - they made bargains with evil beings for power.

 

Anyway he was after some extra firepower and made a bargain for that in exchange for th e sacrifice of 13 virgins. What did he do? Set up a children's hospital...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Alternate Advantage and Limitation configuration

 

Also check out the VPP Extended Real Cost Cap thread, if you use VPPs in your magic system. What you really want is an extended Active Point limit, rather than an extended Real Cost, but that is discussed in the thread as well.

[Ice9]

Re: Alternate Advantage and Limitation configuration

 

As has been mentioned, it really only matters when putting things in a framework. What I do for that IMC, is to count certain limitations as "active limitations" - i.e. they reduce the active points. This is only for things that really reduce the potency, not just the convenience, of a power - like "Emotions Only" for Mind Control.

 

I've found this has to be on a case by case basis, as no general rule can really cover the multitude of possibilities. For instance:

Gestures and Incantations on a Fireball: No.

Gestures and Incantations on Armor, must be maintained as long as Armor is used: Yes.

Extra Time (extra phase) on a Fireball: Yes.

Extra Time (extra phase) on a Summon: No.

[Hierax]

Re: Alternate Advantage and Limitation configuration

 

Use an Elemental Control.

 

I know it sounds weird, but hear me out:

 

EC's don't have an Active Point Cap on them like MPP or VPP, I like them precisely to have spells that are more powerful than normal because they need to have 2x or more the Base Cost.

 

If you put a Real Point Limitation on spells put into an Elemental Control then you'd get it so that the spells that use more Limitations could be more powerful than the spells that use less (or rather lesser total value) Limitations.

 

Give the EC a Limitation "Real Points of spell EC must not exceed EC Base Cost (-#)" or "can't exceed Base Cost xN (x2, x3, whatever)" -- for easy math sake let's call it -1 for RP = EC Base... tweak the value to what makes sense after this is just a start* -- apply this Limitation only to the EC Base Points of the Pool not to the individual slots.

 

e.g., with a EC 30 Base Cost, you'd have to buy at least a 60 AP with the Limitation "Real Points of spell EC must not exceed EC Base Cost (-1*)" it costs 15 points for the Base Points of the Pool. Now, for the 1st power to get it down from 60 AP to 30 RP so you need at least a -1 Limitation, for the 2nd power to get it down from 90 to 30 you'd need to have a -2 Limitation, for the 3rd power to get it down from 120 to 30 you'd need to have a -3 Limitation, etc.

 

If you focus on what the EC does mechanically and see how it is perfect for using spells of greater than normal power, add the Real Point Restriction Limitation to encourage/enforce more powerful spells being more limited.

 

Hope that makes sense and isn't too far out there for you.

[Hierax]

Re: Alternate Advantage and Limitation configuration

 

A second method is to use Variable Limitations and have them connected to an Advantage (possibly even a Variable Advantage):

 

Have the Variable Limitations be optional and the Advantage (or Advantages, including increased Power, +1 Advantage = x2 Power, +2 Advantage = x3 power, etc.) be restricted by the amount of the Limitation(s) taken.

 

If you take an extra of -2 Limitation(s) you can take up to a +2 of Advantages (including up to x3 power).

 

The Heroglyphs article (DH.17.3-5) on Proportional Modifiers allows for this sort of useful power boost.

 

Variable Limitations (up to -4 of Limitations; -2)

[Hierax]

Re: Alternate Advantage and Limitation configuration

 

Oh, yeah, you could also have each -¼ worth of Limitation = +1 to the Skill Roll, effectively letting you cast spells of 10 (or 5 or 20) Active Points more than normal.

[Hierax]

Re: Alternate Advantage and Limitation configuration

 

Or build an Aid (possibly with Standard Effect) with a Trigger that goes off when additional Limitations are utilized.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Alternate Advantage and Limitation configuration

 

Seems to work simply and well, from some power write-ups I've done. I just set a RP value every power has to be under and the balance seems to mostly take care of itself, at least in the vicinity of AP limits (Ie., both need GM-watch)

 

The variable limitations = variable advantages idea looks interesting, but I'd need to test it.

[Hierax]

Re: Alternate Advantage and Limitation configuration

 

Regardless of the exact mechanical implementation, it's definitely a cool concept

-- "With Great Limitations Comes Great Power"!

or perhaps "with greater limitations comes greater power"!