AP-limit idea

[Narf the Mouse]

Campaign limits show several different types of power level limits, alongside AP limits. Now, obviously, I don't know about 6E. But for 5E, I have a possible idea for reducing it down closer to AP limits only.

 

The idea:

A character would only be able to use up to the campaign AP limit in powers. If you want to exceed that, then you add 'Second-level power' for +1/2, or 'Third-level power' for +1 and so on, allowing you to use 120, 180 or more AP at a time.

 

Therefore, 60 AP could get you a 12d6 ND EB; 120 AP could get you an 18d6 ND EB; 180 AP could get you a 22d6 ND EB and so on.

 

Defenses would also have to be re-balanced in cost, but I'm not awake enough for that.

 

Thoughts on the idea?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: AP-limit idea

 

I really don't understand what you're trying to say at all.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: AP-limit idea

 

Currently, there's DC and DEF limits, so that people don't overpower their attacks and defenses such that they can plow through any opposition.

This idea replaces the 'hard' DC and DEF limits with a 'soft' diminishing returns AP 'limit'.

[ghost-angel]

Re: AP-limit idea

 

I really don't understand what you're trying to say at all.

 

He's saying that to exceed the AP Limit you add an Advantage.

 

The math presented is a little off though.

 

Active Point Exceeder: +1/2 per Level. Each Level adds the Campaign Active Point Limit to the AP Limit a Power can be, including the Active Point Exceeder Advantage.

 

Example: the Campaign limits are 60 Active Points, for every +1/2 you can add 60 Active Points to the limit of the power, including this Advantage.

 

If you add 1 Level to a stock Energy Blast you can have a 16D6 Energy Blast (80 Active Points); Active Point Exceeder Level 1 (+1/2) = 120 Active Points.

 

For a +1 Advantage (180 Active Points in our model) you can have an 18D6 Energy Blast.

 

At least... I think that's what's being said.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: AP-limit idea

 

The Active Point Exceeder (Like the name) only applies to the AP which...Well, exceeds the limit.

 

So the first 60 AP is at +0 APE; the second 60 AP is at +1/2 APE; the third 60 AP is at +1 APE...

 

...And pretty soon you've got a character even the Librarian would respect in combat.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: AP-limit idea

 

An alternative approach (which might have a little additional Hero-esque feel to it) would be to-- instead of a hard limit on Active Points -- have an "Active Point Maxima" (similar to Normal Characteristic Maxima), that just flat doubles the Active Cost of any AP points above a certain amount. So, for example, instead of saying the campaign has a 60 AP cap, it has 60 AP Maxima. A 16d6 Energy Blast, instead of being 80 AP, would be 100AP (60 for the 12d6 that gets it up to 60 AP, then 40 for the 20 AP that it takes to get it up to 16d6).

[Starlight]

Re: AP-limit idea

 

If you can break through an AP cap, there's no point in having an AP cap in the first place. Sure the active point cost is high, but if you have a villain stopping power you'll only need to use it once in a fight so the real cost can be lowered significantly with limitations. Charges comes to mind.

 

That's not to say you can't have an enjoyable game where this suggestion is in use. But you need to realise you're not playing in a AP capped game any longer, and the assumptions that derive from an AP cap are no longer valid.

 

( The defense subtracts from damage mechanism means that an increase in an attack, once it starts getting damage through, more than proportionally increases the final effect. Putting some figures in play, a 60ap (12D6) attack versus 30 DEF does an average of 12 Stun. Increase to 120ap (24D6) and the average Stun damage is 54 Stun, which is more than 4x the final damage for 2x the AP. )

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: AP-limit idea

 

Hmm...How does it compare using the 'Active Point Maxima' idea?

 

120 AP...90 points worth: 18d6: 18 Body, 63 STUN. 33 Stun.

 

I think that works. Now, to run it through the HD...

 

16 Enchanted Beam: Level 1: Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); OAF (Amulet; -1), Cannot Use Targeting (-½), Incantations (Complex; -½), Spell (-½), Beam (-¼) 6

16 Enchanted Beam: Level 2: Energy Blast 6d6, Can Exceed x1 APM (+1) (60 Active Points); OAF (Amulet; -1), Cannot Use Targeting (-½), Incantations (Complex; -½), Spell (-½), Beam (-¼) 6

16 Enchanted Beam: Level 3: Energy Blast 4d6, Can Exceed x2 APM (+2) (60 Active Points); OAF (Amulet; -1), Cannot Use Targeting (-½), Incantations (Complex; -½), Spell (-½), Beam (-¼) 6

So that's 16 RP and 6 End for 12d6 ND, 32 RP and 12 End for 18d6 and 48 RP and 18 End for 22d6

 

22 * 3.5 = 77 Stun - 30 DEF = 47 Stun.

 

12 to 33 to 47. Bell curve. Nice.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: AP-limit idea

 

The problem with doing it with an advantage is that it can stack with other advantages. Say that a +½ advantage allows you to go to 120 points. Then you could either make (as Ghost Angel suggests) a 16D6 Energy Blast (80 Active Points); Active Point Exceeder Level 1 (+1/2) = 120 Active Points, where 40 of these points are from the Exceeder level. Or you could make a 8d6 EB, AoE (+1), 0 END Cost (+½), Active Point Exceeder Level 1 (+1/2) = 120 points, where only 20 points are from the Exceeder level.

 

I would rather have something like Fuzion's "Rule of X", where the campaign limit is a sum of attacks, defenses, OCV and DCV (and perhaps SPD, STUN, CON and BODY), which means that you could have a character that is a heavy hitter, but has a glass jaw.

 

- Klaus

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: AP-limit idea

 

Thanks, you pointed out to me something I'd been doing wrong - I was thinking multiply by the APE first. It works out, multiplying by the APE last.

Also, only the points that exceed the Active Point Multiplicator? (Note: Need better name) are multiplied by the APE.

 

Unfortunately, in HD, there's either Custom Adders (Far too much work for this), or using advantages - And multiplying the advantages by the APE (Custom 'Adjustment' modifier equal to APE * Advantages)

 

So, using the latest concept, 16d6 EB breaks down to 12d6 at 60AP, 4 * 5 * 2 (+1 APE) = 20 * 2 (+1 APE) = 40, or:

12d6 ND EB + 4d6 ND EB; 60 + 40 = 100.

 

Then, the 8d6 ND EB, AoE (+1) = 40 * 2 (+1 AoE) = 80 = 20 over APE = 80 + (20 * 2 (+1 APE) = 100.

 

In HD, it works out to compound powers of (To explain further and better):

12d6 ND EB for 60 AP Plus

4d6 ND EB, +1 APE for 40 AP

 

And:

6d6 ND EB, +1 AoE for 60 AP Plus

2d6 ND EB, +1 AoE, +1 Adjustment (AoE), +1 APE for 40 AP

 

The adjustment is there because, if we multiply by the APE last, then the effect of the advantages gets multiplied by the APE. This is equivalent to multiplying the advantages.

 

...Erm, I suspect that may have been confusing. Explainy Narf is not very explainy.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: AP-limit idea

 

Unfortunately' date=' in HD, there's either Custom Adders (Far too much work for this), or using advantages[/quote']

I've never used HD, but a custom adder actually seems to be the right way to do it:

 

Limit Breaker (5-point adder): Each adder allows a power to exceed the campaign limit for active points by 5 points (not counting this adder).

 

- Klaus

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: AP-limit idea

 

Except that would allow powers to grow too powerful, for too few points.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: AP-limit idea

 

Except that would allow powers to grow too powerful' date=' for too few points.[/quote']

Well, then make it a 10-point or 15-point adder to add +5 to the AP limit.

 

- Klaus

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: AP-limit idea

 

You're looking for a scaling solution that is already there.