Cryptic to develop Neverwinter Nights MMO?

[Kisska]

Re: Cryptic to develop Neverwinter Nights MMO?

 

"

And that's not to say I 'hate' DDO. It's a fantastic game, it's the most accurate D&D pnp ruleset to MMO to date. The problem is the people behind it, not the game itself."

 

You are right, DDO did a good job on turning the pnp ruleset into a game. Sadly, they went with Eberron which ran me off. I would have settled for any of the earlier properties... but oh well.

 

Cryptic failed to turn the HERO game system into a workable Champions MMO at least using the pnp ruleset. I now am seriously concerned about them flubbing STO

 

 

Yes I am hugely disapointed with their champions game didnt feel like playing champs even mildy to me so even though I was looking forward to STO I will not preorder it for sure.

[Kisska]

Re: Cryptic to develop Neverwinter Nights MMO?

 

I stand corrected. LotR does have respectable numbers.

 

I SERIOUSLY disagree here having had some time to play it. Running through a dungeon smashing barrels is not my idea of D&D. Let's not forget the fact that it's now free and relying on Micro-Transactions to stay alive speaks volumes.

 

There are reason very good reasons I'm biased against Turbine, but you're right, we'll never know who's really at fault.

 

 

Its not really free its a hybrid and many of the new people trying the slightly limited free to play option are switching to subs to buy off those restricitions and many players such as myself are still subscribing and have been for over three years, yeah the microtransations are helping turbine out but they set those up in such a manner to encourage people to sub rather then do microtransactions.

[Checkmate]

Re: Cryptic to develop Neverwinter Nights MMO?

 

And by all accounts having a spectacularly successful re-launch in that model.

 

If you want to rag against DDO on the basis of its strengths and weaknesses as a game, fine, but I think dragging in the payment model is pretty disingenuous. In fact, moving from a subscription-based revenue stream to a microtransaction-based revenue stream is only good business sense in today's MMO business climate. There are only so many subscription dollars to go around, and WoW has too big a share of them; microtransactions taps into a considerably larger total pot of consumer money. While microtransactions has gotten a bum rap from a number of shoddily-developed games that were produced several years ago, the industry as a whole would be a lot better off if more A-list games went this direction.

You missed the entire point of that. The point is they weren't getting enough revenue with a regular subscription based model. The game was doing so poorly, they needed to change the model to survive.

[Zed-F]

Re: Cryptic to develop Neverwinter Nights MMO?

 

I didn't miss your point, I just thought it's a very poor way to go about making it.

 

The fact that the game is doing much better under the microtransaction model is telling, though. It's not just that microtransactions are proving to be a superior business model for a MMO that has to compete with a lot of other bigger, newer, and/or shinier MMOs. It's also that a much greater percentage of people trying the game now enjoy playing it, as compared to when it was first launched. Of course the game has had several years to mature, so it stands to reason that it would be better... and it still isn't for everyone.

[Checkmate]

Re: Cryptic to develop Neverwinter Nights MMO?

 

I didn't miss your point' date=' I just thought it's a very poor way to go about making it.[/quote']

I disagree, it absolutely proves my point.

The fact that the game is doing much better under the microtransaction model is telling' date=' though. It's not just that microtransactions are proving to be a superior business model for a MMO that has to compete with a lot of other bigger, newer, and/or shinier MMOs.[/quote']

It was having trouble competing with a 10 year old MMO, which still has standard subscription pricing.

It's also that a much greater percentage of people trying the game now enjoy playing it, as compared to when it was first launched. Of course the game has had several years to mature, so it stands to reason that it would be better... and it still isn't for everyone.

Since it only switched to micro-transactions, what a week or two ago? I'm not sure I would be so quick to say successful.I mean how are they defining success? Number of players? Of course more people are playing, it's free. Then of course you have people willing to shell out a few dollars to get Warforged and Monk the first month, but what about next month? Are they going to come out with a new class or race every month?

 

You like the game great, it's not what would be considered a successful MMO up to this point, and it's WAY too early to tell if the new model will be successful. The point is that out of the four MMO's Turbine has been involved with, only 2 were successful, and they pretty much destroyed one of those by making a horrid sequel.

[Zed-F]

Re: Cryptic to develop Neverwinter Nights MMO?

 

Actually I don't care about DDO one way or another... but I follow a few blog sites that are reporting on how DDO's relaunch is doing, and from what I've read the financials are encouraging for Turbine. It's not just number of players that are going up, it's revenue. But go ahead and spout off all you like, it's no real skin off my nose.

[Checkmate]

Re: Cryptic to develop Neverwinter Nights MMO?

 

Actually I don't care about DDO one way or another... but I follow a few blog sites that are reporting on how DDO's relaunch is doing' date=' and from what I've read the financials are encouraging for Turbine. It's not just number of players that are going up, it's revenue. But go ahead and spout off all you like, it's no real skin off my nose.[/quote']

Who's blogs? The developers or some other party? If the former, well they have a vested interest in saying they're doing well, if the latter, where are they getting their information from? Can you provide links to these blogs?

 

I have no doubt DDO did better this month than last, they made it free to bring in players and then offered the most popular items for a relatively small amount of money. That's great for some quick cash (sort of like selling an expansion, promising more would come, then canceling the game after sales dried up), but what are they going to do next month when people have already bought their warforged monk? Are they going to come out with new races and classes every month?

 

You can call it "spouting off" if you want, I call it supporting my position. You don't agree, great provide some support for your position beyond vague references to some blogs you've read.

[Zed-F]

Re: Cryptic to develop Neverwinter Nights MMO?

 

Ars Technica is a news organization that specializes in technology trends, particularly for the game industry.

 

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/10/ddo-free-to-play.ars

 

and some commentary:

 

http://teethandclaws.blogspot.com/2009/10/benefits-of-freedom.html

 

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure I could find more if I went looking.

 

The plain fact is, whatever you think of the quality of the game, DDO's switch to their current business model is just a sound business decision. Whether you personally don't like the game or not, enough people DO like the game and that business model to make it a perfectly viable business enterprise. So trying to use the business model switch as an argument to suggest how poor the game is just demonstrates how ill-informed you are about the business of MMOs. I would go so far as to say that nearly every subscription-only MMO other than WOW would have their business case improved by going to DDO's subscription-or-microtransaction model.

 

I don't really care about DDO itself. But I'm tired of always having to contend with subscription fees, so I hope DDO continues to exceed expectations, in order to encourage more developers to adopt a similar model.

[Checkmate]

Re: Cryptic to develop Neverwinter Nights MMO?

 

The plain fact is, whatever you think of the quality of the game, DDO's switch to their current business model is just a sound business decision. Whether you personally don't like the game or not, enough people DO like the game and that business model to make it a perfectly viable business enterprise. So trying to use the business model switch as an argument to suggest how poor the game is just demonstrates how ill-informed you are about the business of MMOs.

First, I'm not saying anything about the quality of the game itself. The game that I feel is the greatest MMO ever, is barely surviving, and the one I absolutely loved, did so poorly that it got a complete revamp, so I don't attribute number of players to quality of game. I will say that my favorite MMO is NOT successful. It (probably) isn't making enough money to be considered successful.

 

Second, can we agree, if Turbine thought DDO was successful, they wouldn't have changed the business model? I mean they haven't changed Lord of the Rings, so can we say that's a fair assessment? If we agree on this point, then we agree, becuase this is all I'm saying.

I would go so far as to say that nearly every subscription-only MMO other than WOW would have their business case improved by going to DDO's subscription-or-microtransaction model.

Here we are wholeheartedly in disagreement. Micro-Transactions get a bad rap in the MMO world, not saying it's deserved but it's there. It can eventually be overcome (see buying characters and items), but initally people will avoid it.

I don't really care about DDO itself. But I'm tired of always having to contend with subscription fees, so I hope DDO continues to exceed expectations, in order to encourage more developers to adopt a similar model.

I have DDO on my computer. If I get bored or my favorite MMO is down or something, it's free why not? I may even evetually buy the Monk and/or Warforged, and I'm afraid that's what a lot of people are going to do. WoW (among others) have taught us that the "casual gamer" is the majority of the MMO demographic. I don't see "casual gamers" willing to shell out money enough to make micro-transactions more lucrative than straight subscription.

[Zed-F]

Re: Cryptic to develop Neverwinter Nights MMO?

 

First, I'm not saying anything about the quality of the game itself.

 

Really?

 

The problems with DDO are far too numerous to list here. And I don't think we should forget Turbine's track record before we immediately assume everything's Atari's fault.

 

DDO: Now take a GOOD look at DDO, I thought this was an absolutely horrible game. I haven't played it in awhile (although now that it's free I may take a look at it) so my assessment comes from the initial release (actually beta, never bought the game). They made the game as simple as they possibly could and still call it D&D. There was no exploration, nothing over level 10, added mini levels to give people that "instant gratification" feeling.

 

It certainly seemed like you were saying something about the quality of DDO.

 

Second' date=' can we agree, if Turbine thought DDO was successful, they wouldn't have changed the business model? I mean they haven't changed Lord of the Rings, so can we say that's a fair assessment? If we agree on this point, then we agree, becuase this is all I'm saying.[/quote']

 

Hard to say, because 'successful' can have varying interpretations. Would they have been able to keep the servers going without changing the business model? Who knows? I'll agree that it wasn't living up to its potential, if that's what you mean. Again, though, it's hard to say how much of that should be laid at the feet of the quality of DDO as a game, and how much should be laid at the feet of the pure-subscription model being a bad fit for niche MMOs.

 

Here we are wholeheartedly in disagreement. Micro-Transactions get a bad rap in the MMO world' date=' not saying it's deserved but it's there. It can eventually be overcome (see buying characters and items), but initally people will avoid it.[/quote']

Micro-transactions have historically had a bad rap because of poor early implementations of pure-microtransaction games. However, if you follow MMO trends at all you will note that microtransactions are becoming both increasingly common and increasingly accepted. Even pure-subscription games such as WoW are using microtransactions for account management features these days.

 

There have historically been some problems and gotchas associated with microtransactions and perceptions of fairness, but a lot of these problems have been solved in the last few years and games implementing those solutions are starting to popularize the concept that microtransactions, done well, can work just fine as an alternative or as a supplement to other payment models. The bad rap you mentioned is starting to fade away, and most people who look at the trends agree that microtransactions are here to stay and will become only more common as time goes on. Just look at the popularity of microtransaction-based services like iTunes for another example.

 

Note: I'm not suggesting people should abandon the subscriber model entirely. That works for some people, and it works for some games. I am suggesting offering people a choice between subscription-based and microtransaction-based will get a lot more people interested in the game and thus draw a lot more potential business, than going with subscriptions alone in a world where the subscription money pot is dominated by an 800lb gorilla.

 

I have DDO on my computer. If I get bored or my favorite MMO is down or something, it's free why not? I may even evetually buy the Monk and/or Warforged, and I'm afraid that's what a lot of people are going to do. WoW (among others) have taught us that the "casual gamer" is the majority of the MMO demographic. I don't see "casual gamers" willing to shell out money enough to make micro-transactions more lucrative than straight subscription.

Casual gamers are even more likely to impulse buy than more discriminating hardcore gamers. This makes them an even better fit for the microtransaction model. Again, see iTunes.

[NestorDRod]

Re: Cryptic to develop Neverwinter Nights MMO?

 

FWIW, and in the complete acknowledgment that it's entirely anecdotal, I offer the following experience.

 

There's a MMO out there, called Wizard 101, targeted towards younger audiences. The setting is basically Hogwart's meets Yugi-Oh (pause for the inevitable gagging noises from the peanut gallery).

 

Their subscription model is interesting. The first three zones (including the tutorial zone) are accessible for free (you pay nothing for the client app). After that, you need to subscribe to progress.

 

So, your basic customer (such as my 10 year-old daughter) gets to play the game long enough to develop the addiction, then subscribe to continue feeding it. Worked like a charm in our case; my daughter got a one-year subscription and may very well extend it, depending on her interests at that point.

 

I, as a die-hard d20-hater, actually downloaded DDO and tried it out, simply because it was free. Will I be joining it? Not likely, but I could see it drawing other, more willing, players in.

 

So there is something to this micro-transaction paradigm. At least in my experience.

[Checkmate]

Re: Cryptic to develop Neverwinter Nights MMO?

 

Zed-F,

My point is pointing out Turbine's track record, which has been less than stellar. I have heard rumors that Atari is an absolute nightmare to work for, but I don't remember where I read that, and as of yet am unable to produce a link to an article, website or forum where that was said.

 

The other quote you put up was in reference to the problems they had with management and developers being fired or quiting (depending on which version you believe) just prior to release, as well as the horrid state of the game on release.

 

Yes, I did say prior to release DDO was probably the worst MMO I've ever played, and I qualified my statement by saying "before release". Nothing changes that opinion, and since I've haven't made it past level 1.2 on the "new version", I can't really talk about the current quality of the game, I've barely seen it. Although the thing that initially had me excited, has turned out to be an illusion.

 

One of the things that really turned me off about the game was the lack of exploration. I mean it's D&D just uh... take out any exploration...

 

When I started the free version and I started outside on a beach, I thought they may have changed that. Then as the tutorial progressed I realized they hadn't. You're still in one area just walking into different doors down the street.

 

NestorDRod,

[gojira]

Re: Cryptic to develop Neverwinter Nights MMO?

 

Ars Technica is a news organization that specializes in technology trends, particularly for the game industry.

 

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/10/ddo-free-to-play.ars

 

and some commentary:

 

http://teethandclaws.blogspot.com/2009/10/benefits-of-freedom.html

 

 

Darn interesting links, thanks for posting those! It's nice to see some light, rather than just heat, on this debate.

[Checkmate]

Re: Cryptic to develop Neverwinter Nights MMO?

 

Darn interesting links' date=' thanks for posting those! It's nice to see some light, rather than just heat, on this debate.[/quote']

I'm not sure how much "light" there is as this hasn't been out more than a month yet. If 6 months from now, they're still reporting the same numbers, I'll agree, and the second post is simply a post referencing the first.