Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

[DrTemp]

Subject sais it all: Is there a modifier in Hero (5th or 6th) to make the "requires a skill roll" harder, such as "-1 to skill roll" or "-20 to skill roll"?

[NestorDRod]

Re: Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

 

Dunno in 6th, but IIRC the default behavior for the Disadvantage has a penalty based on the AP of the power.

 

Generally, if I want to fine-tune the roll, I just use Activation as a Disadvantage and select the roll I want.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

 

Under 6E the default penalty for a Skill Based Requires A Roll is -1 per 10 Active Points. You can modify that to -1/5 or -1/20 AP.

 

You could certainly switch that to other parameters easily.

 

Or you could simply invoke a series of Conditional Modifiers upon the rolls; say a -2 if you don't have proper or good quality items for a magic ritual (for example the spell has Focus components, but you have a poorly crafted Focus to work with). Or perhaps a Power has Extra Time and the GM will let you rush it for a -1 for every step down the time chart you try to go.

 

Is that what you're looking for?

[DrTemp]

Re: Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

 

Not exactly, but it is the direction I am heading for. My idea is to make powers cheaper by imposing a penalty on the skill roll (independent of Active Points), such as: "Skill roll is -1" (- 1/8), which you could apply multiple times, even for a total of -10, -20 or more.

 

That way, you could have sets of relatively cheap powers (say, magic spells), that require a very, very high skill score in a core skill ("Casting Magic", for example).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

 

While the System doesn't support an increment less than -1/4.. I would say that an additional -1 or -2 to the Skill Roll is worth an additional -1/4 on the RAR Limitation.

 

Say, Requires A Roll, Skill Roll: Magic Skills, Additional -2 To Roll for a -3/4 Limitation.

 

With that a 60 Active Point Power has a full -8 (-6 from the standard penalty plus the additional -2) to the Skill Roll to activate.

 

-2 might get too harsh too quickly though. . . perhaps the Requires A Roll is worth an additional -1/4 for every -1 you apply to the Skill Roll Penalty.

 

I wouldn't apply this to the stock Activation, which has its own scale to adjusting a flat Activation roll from the base 11-.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

 

Hmmm…on a 60 point power, for -1/4, I take -3 and save 12 points, for -1/2 I take -6 and save 20 points, and for -1, I take -12 to the skill roll and save 30 points.

 

on a 40 point power, for -1/4, I take -2 and save 8 points, for -1/2 I take -4 and save 13 points, and for -1, I take -8 to the skill roll and save 20 points

 

So a -1 to the skill roll seems to save somewhere between 2.5 and 4 points.

 

How detrimental -1 is compared to moving up the sliding scale for AP modifiers depends on how big the power is. An intermediate step of -1 per 7 AP at -3/4 might be in order.

 

The fixed reduction also can’t be mitigated by reducing the amount of power used (eg. only using 40 AP instead of 60 AP to get a better skill roll), so in that regard it’s more limiting than RSR.

 

It seems to me that the additional limitation would reasonably be based on how it compares to increasing the AP based penalty, probably rounding in favour of a higher limitation as it is fixed. So, if I apply a -2 to the Skill Roll on a 60 AP power with RSR at the -1/2 level, an additional -1/4 seems reasonable. -1 seems a bit light, since a further -1/4 would reasonably impose a -3 penalty at full power.

 

Another option would be looking at the spread between the RSR roll and the final roll, and the difference between the two as activation rolls.

 

The limitations have been merged in 6e, I believe. Would that make it easier to apply the rationale based on the actual roll required?

 

On the other hand, how many points should you save for reducing the skill roll by, say, 2 points when that can be offset by spending 4 points to bump up your skill roll?

[tesuji]

Re: Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

 

my concern would be using this to milk the system

 

If i buy a lot of cheap powers saving lots on them because i take -10 to the roll but then only have to buy the skill +10 to effectively negate that, then i am getting something for nothing.

 

I would be VERy dubious as a GM of such a construct.

 

Like hugh said - how many points do you save for taking -2 on all those skill rols when offsetting that -2 is only 4 cp?

 

if its more than 4, its likely too good a deal.

 

ideally the gain from "all my spells take -2 on skill rol" is only 4 cp total.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

 

This would, IMO, only truly be useful in a game where the GM places a cap of some nature on how high a Skill can be bought.

 

Another major factor to work with - in 6E there is no way to buy "No Active Point Penalty" for a Skill Roll bought through RAR. You always have that number to contend with.

 

Even if you've taken a full -1 for a total additional -4 to your roll, however many points you save that's going to be on top of the Active Point Penalty. Even an 18- Skill with a 60 AP Power is at -10 (or an 8-) to succeed.

[Hierax]

Re: Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

 

The Side Effect method is one way, here's another:

 

If you're using Hero Designer, add a "Custom Adder" of Negative Points (a "custom subtracter") to the Power that is equal to the positive points that Skill Levels with that power would cost so that the costs and utility cancel out, nice fair and even.

 

This is essentially the same thing as building a compound power with Skill Levels. I know that (for some reason) the system currently frowns on negative levels but this might serve your purpose...

[DrTemp]

Re: Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

 

[...]

Like hugh said - how many points do you save for taking -2 on all those skill rols when offsetting that -2 is only 4 cp?

 

if its more than 4, its likely too good a deal.

[...]

 

Well, it is intended to be a good deal. I mean, even if it was exactly 4, as soon as you take two or more powers that have the same limitation based on the same skill, you save points.

 

But the individual power would still be limited by this modifier. It's only that some characters could circumvent it, as long as their skill is high enough. Now, if an enemy finds a way to reduce your effective skill level, then you have a problem...

[tesuji]

Re: Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

 

Well, it is intended to be a good deal. I mean, even if it was exactly 4, as soon as you take two or more powers that have the same limitation based on the same skill, you save points.

 

So the goal is to just make powers cheaper?

 

Why be so complex. just reduce their cost?

 

Same result but more forthright and upfront.

 

We think these powers ought to cost less.

BAM cost loweder

ewsult - they cost less.

 

beats the heck out of

"we think these powers should be cheaper"

BAM we add a not really limiting limitation and scale it so they reduce the cost but buy more skill and save points for nothing

result - they cost less but its a much bisier character sheet.

 

Putting a lim into place at a value so that they will get powers cheaper and thats after buying off the penalty - thats just lowering the cost, not using the system.

 

house rule the prices down and be gone..

i mean heck, in FH i think some of the established options are things like "divide the cost of all spells by 3"

 

do what works but do it simply.

[DrTemp]

Re: Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

 

So the goal is to just make powers cheaper?

 

Why be so complex. just reduce their cost?

 

Same result but more forthright and upfront.

[...]

 

No, because if I reduce their cost, those with high skill are not "privileged". Which would not emulate the kind of game were great power needs to be controlled by great skill, such as is usually the case with magic.

[tesuji]

Re: Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

 

No' date=' because if I reduce their cost, those with high skill are not "privileged". Which would not emulate the kind of game were great power needs to be controlled by great skill, such as is usually the case with magic.[/quote']

 

The simp-ler way to do this is just set a number of bonus xp for those who have high skill.

 

Something like

 

If your magic skill is 15- gain 10 extra cp

If it is 16- gain 20 extra cp

etc...

 

thats effectively the same but less complicated.

 

In my games, limitations are used not to just alter cost but to alter cost so it is in line with the power's effectiveness. if it takes a 60 pt power and reduces it by half, the cost drops by half.

 

So if the "offset" for a lim or set of lims is only "pay +10 cp for +5 to a skill" then you ought not to save more than 10 cp from the lot.

 

Now, if you have stuff like - rolling to activate takes a half phase so these powers dont turn on as zero phase actions" or "if you turn on more than one their penalties combine" etc... then you have reduced their effectiveness.

 

But the kind of thing you are suggesting - more points saved for -2 to the skill roll" should not be worth more than +2 to skill rol

 

IF and i do mean IF your goal is charging fair price for abilities

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

 

At the same time, if I make a 60 point spell RSR at -1/4, it costs 48 points and reduces the skill roll by 3.

 

If I make it RSR at -1/2, it costs 40 points and reduces the skill by 6. I can spend 6 character points to bump my magic skill up by 3, netting a 2 point benefit.

 

If I make it RSR at -1, the spell costs 30 points and the skill penalty is now -12. It would cost 12 points to bump up my skill roll to compensate, so this is a net cost of 2 points. But if I have more than one spell, I can probably save more than 2 points on the other(s).

 

Given this, RSR as it stands isn't really all that balanced either.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

 

I missed something in your math, so I'm going to spell it out in small steps before I comment further, just to make sure I'm commenting correctly.

 

Take one 60 Active Point Power.

 

-1/4 RAR: Skill Roll @ -1/20 Active Points. A -3 to the Roll. You save 12 Points.

--Investing 6 Points in the Skill negates the -3 completely. You take a net gain of 6 Points to spends elsewhere.

 

-1/2 RAR: Skill Roll @ -1/10 Active Points. A -6 to the Roll. You save 20 Points.

--Investing 12 Points in the Skill negates the -6 completely. You take a net gain of 8 Points to spend elsewhere.

 

-1 RARL SKill Roll @ -1/5 Active Points. A -12 to the Roll. You save 30 Points.

--Investing 24 Points in the Skill negates the -12 completely. You take a net gain of 6 Points to spend elsewhere.

 

This is assuming a Power Skill: Magic at the normal 3/2 Cost. Using a KS: Magic at the 3/1 Cost and you halve the Points to expend to negate the roll, netting you even more. But it never costs you anything.

 

It's obvious that RAR: Skill Roll at whatever level is most effective in campaigns with Skill Caps or at least moderate limits.

It also doesn't take into account any other Limitations on the Powers, such as the common suite of Incantations;Gestures;Focus for a lot of Magic Systems. Which produces an increased savings, but a decreased Per Limitation savings, where you may be spending more on increasing your Skill Roll than RAR is getting you - though not more than the overall suite of Limitations is getting you.

 

I leave the issue of Balance in an open system up to the reader - but I know How to balance it within the context of a game.

Of course, spending 15+ Points on a Skill in a game where this is likely to come up may be a good chunk of your character in the first place.

 

Say 5 Points in a characteristic for a decent Base Roll, plus 15 Points on the Skill (for the -1/2 RAR) is 20 Points and that's 10% of a Standard Heroic Character right there, and 5% of a Superheroic Characters.

 

Move that to the full -1 version and the Skill costs 25 or more Points, even Superheroic Characters notice that expenditure in one place. It's a choice... sure you may net yourself 6 points or so. . . but I'd consider that no worse than a Power Framework done flat.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

 

I missed something in your math, so I'm going to spell it out in small steps before I comment further, just to make sure I'm commenting correctly.

 

Take one 60 Active Point Power.

 

-1/4 RAR: Skill Roll @ -1/20 Active Points. A -3 to the Roll. You save 12 Points.

--Investing 6 Points in the Skill negates the -3 completely. You take a net gain of 6 Points to spends elsewhere.

 

-1/2 RAR: Skill Roll @ -1/10 Active Points. A -6 to the Roll. You save 20 Points.

--Investing 12 Points in the Skill negates the -6 completely. You take a net gain of 8 Points to spend elsewhere.

 

I ws working incrementally. You have gained 2 points over using the -1/4 RSR.

 

-1 RARL SKill Roll @ -1/5 Active Points. A -12 to the Roll. You save 30 Points.

--Investing 24 Points in the Skill negates the -12 completely. You take a net gain of 6 Points to spend elsewhere.

 

A loss of 2 compared to the -1/2 level.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is there a "penalty to skill roll" modifier for powers?

 

Oh! I see what you were saying. I knew I was missing something.

 

Don't see it as an issue personally, but I got it. Just a little slow on the draw today.