Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

[Hierax]

I'm looking at several options for incorporating Weapon Speeds and Casting Times into my 6e house rules update:

Note: FWIW, this is like the classic AD&D Weapon Speeds and Casting Times that allows for variation and tough tactical choices between fast and powerful, I want to provide for granular options here up to a maximum 1-10 scale: 1st level spell -1 Initiative, ... 10th level spell -10 Initiative; and down to a minimum 3-point scale Fast/Average/Slow.

• Extra Time (works better for Sword & Sorcery Magic than Weapon Speeds unless seriously alter the Extra Time Limitation even more extremely than APG suggests)
  

 

• Negative CSL for Initiative (if CSLs to be used for +Initative as well as +OCV, +DCV, +DC, why not the opposite?)
  

 

• Negative Lightning Reflexes (i.e., limited DEX as a Talent)
  

 

• Skill Roll Active Point Penalty: e.g., -1 Initiative/10 AP of Spell (-1/Spell Level like Skill Roll) (for spells this can be an modifying Limitation on the Skill Roll Limitation)
  

 

• STR Min/x = -y Initiative (Weapons)
  
  • EGO/INT Min/x = -y Initiative (Spells)
    
  • Weapons and Spells on same scale (so can do Warriors vs. Warriors, Warriors vs. Wizards, and Wizard Duels).
    

   

 

• STR Min vs STR Min Difference = - Initiative penalty to weapon with higher STR Min (higher - lower = penalty)
  
  • EGO/INT Min vs EGO/INT Min difference = - Initiative penalty to spell with higher EGO/INT Min
    
  • Weapons and Spells on same scale (so can do Warriors vs. Warriors, Warriors vs. Wizards, and Wizard Duels).
    

   

 

• Weapon Speed / Casting Time Limitation of - Initiative -x/ -1/4 limitation.
  

Any other ideas/options on how to implement this sort of concept? [edit: include suggestions below here:]

 

• Side Effect (MayaPuppies)
  
• Length (Vulcan)
  
• Damage Class Based -- i.e., DC/x = - Init (Director 13)
  

Thanks!

[Matt Holck]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

block out dexterity to allow actions to be taken after attacks?

[Matt Holck]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

It all depends on whether one is going take out the opponent in the first few hits

if a character takes out an opponent with one hit , the opponent never has a chance to return fire

[mayapuppies]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

I just use a side Effect that represents a negative to DEX to determine who goes first in a phase.

[Hierax]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

Yeah, Side Effect is a possibility too, especially for the lower granularity options (maybe 1-4 levels-ish). I take it that this is your REA modifier in 5e (since, in Kamarathin p.220, you use REAction as a 2pt. version of the initiative part of DEX and apply that to your weapons p.241-247)?

 

BTW, MayaPuppies, For the Kamarathin 6e Equipment Hero Designer files (Tursh Weapons) I see you use a -1/2 Side Effect both for -1 and -2 DEX (seeing you've removed REA for 6e), why not go with -1/4 for -1 and -1/2 for -2 to differentiate the 2 levels of penalty? What values would you recommend giving for -3 to -10, or some sort of higher granularated system?

 

One could go and stretch the granularity (at most) up to about -1 Initiative for -1/4, -2 for -1/2, -3 for -3/4, -4 for -1 (or perhaps attack initiative at full DEX for -0, 3/4 DEX for -1/4, 1/2 DEX for -1/2, 1/4 DEX for -3/4, and 0 DEX for -1) by saying it's an "occurs automatically" sort of thing but those aren't quite worth the 15/30/45/60 Active Points of effect since really they're only about a 2 Active Point negative for each -1 (i.e., DEX 2pts -1 Limit for only for Initiative, btw, same Active Points as your 5e REA stat); so perhaps squeezing -1 to -3 (2-6 Active Points doubled=4-12) all into a -1/4 Side Effect, and -4 to -7 (8 to 14 AP x2=16-28) to -1/2, and -8 to -11 (16 to 22 AP x2=32-44) to -3/4, and -12 to -15 (48-60) to -1 -- by doubling up on it with the x2 "occurs automatically" value for Side Effect but doubling the incorporated effect rather than just making the +1/4 to +1/2 to get a greater range of Limitation values.

 

What do you think -- how granular could one make this and what values would you assign using Side Effect?

[mayapuppies]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

You can certainly get as granular as you'd like (and your suggestion above is perfect), but since the point value of a weapon in a heroic game isn't really relevant (assuming you're not paying points for weapons), I didn't get too far into it.

[Hierax]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

Weapon Speed as a Side Effect (using the "occurs automatically" -like option of doubling the 2 AP per -1 Initiative to 4 AP per -1 Initiative):

 

• Side Effect (Weapon Speed or Casting Time -1 to -3 to Initiative; -¼)
  

 

• Side Effect (Weapon Speed or Casting Time -4 to -7 to Initiative; -½)
  

 

• Side Effect (Weapon Speed or Casting Time -8 to -11 to Initiative; -¾)
  

 

• Side Effect (Weapon Speed or Casting Time -12 to -15 to Initiative; -1)
  

This works out pretty well except when compared to Extra Time:

 

• Extra Time (Delayed Phase; -¼)
  

 

• Extra Time (Extra Segment; -½)
  

 

• Extra Time (Extra Phase; -¾)
  

 

• Extra Time (Extra Phase, Delayed Phase; -1)
  

Since any amount of - Initiative is within the Delayed Phase to Extra Segment time frame, and if you look at it that way any value that would be less than ½ DEX (-5 for a normal baseline human) shouldn't be worth more than -¼. But maybe this is more a problem with the lack of granularity of Extra Time than of doing Weapon Speed this way, but short of altering the Time Chart (~ H6e-APG.160) I'm not sure how to fix the discrepancy without losing granularity. Tough problem where the Champions bias still shows it's roots in the system.

 

Anyway, the idea that Delayed Phase = ½ DEX for initiative being -5 for a normal baseline human as a -¼ Limitation could give another baseline to work from for the option of Initiative -x/ = -¼ limitation by giving "x" a value of 5:

 

• Weapon Speed or Casting Time (-1 to -5 to initiative; -¼)
  

 

• Weapon Speed or Casting Time (-6 to -10 to initiative; -½)
  

 

• Weapon Speed or Casting Time (-11 to -15 to initiative; -¾)
  

 

• Weapon Speed or Casting Time (-16 to -20 to initiative; -1)
  

The challenge is which Hero baseline to work from in deriving this since the costs aren't consistent across the system...

[Vulcan]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

I'm looking at several options for incorporating Weapon Speeds and Casting Times into my 6e house rules update

 

I can't say much about spell casting times. But what do you base the 'weapon speeds' on?

 

It has been my experience in boffer combat (and I wish to point out that I don't fight with groups that use 'pixie sticks', we weight and balance our weapons to at least be in the ballpark of the real thing) that the small, light weapons don't get the first shot in. Striking length (the distance between the leading hand and the tip of the weapon) is what determines who gets the first shot, because the guy with the shorter weapon really can't even begin his attack until after he's already in the other guy's strike range - at which point (all other factors being equal) he is already under attack.

 

Swing recovery speed (the rate at which a weapon can be brought back around for another swing) is also usually a minimal factor, barring a total mismatch like a greatsword against a dagger at grappling range. Two different single-handed weapons both swing at a rate much more dependant upon the skill and strength of the weilders than on the relative size and weight of the weapons.

 

Just my $.02.

[Hierax]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

Yes, I quite agree that Length counts for a lot -- that's why the Weapon Length / Reach rules apply (FH-5e.186; H6e2.201-202). BTW, good that you pointed out it is the length from the leading hand to the end that counts, too many people forget what is given up in length with the grip. Anyway, for the Length I also give Initiative Penalties along the lines of the official OCV penalties, and Initiative isn't always a set DEX but can allow for a DEX roll. So, Weapon Speed basically supplements those rules to add additional detail to allow greater differentiation between weapons and more flavorful combats.

 

FWIW, this is for my GreyHero conversion (Greyhawk with Hero) which draws heavily on xD&D and Hackmaster (in their various incarnations), and a healthy dose of Rolemaster/MERP as well for the Spell Casting Times.

[director13]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

-1/4, "Weapon Speed"

Using this weapon imposes a penalty to DEX equal to DC/2.

 

Option: Only when against weapons with a shorter length.

Option: Only when the attacker hasn't take at least a half move action since his last attack

Option: Different formula than DC/2

 

??

[ajackson]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

You can also just muck with the basic rules: eliminate the speed stat, and make speed a feature of powers. This doesn't work well with the speed chart (since the rules for changing spd score are messy), but it can work with variants. For example:

 

Racetrack System: create a 'racetrack' with some large number of boxes and a marker for each character (including NPCs). When you take an action, move your marker forward by a number of boxes equal to the cost of that action, and proceed to the next character. The next character is determined by track position: the person furthest back on the track always gets the initiative (for tied characters, a tiebreaking system is needed). The current segment (for time purposes) is equal to the position of the person furthest back on the track; when the last character moves past an end of turn marker, everyone gets an end-of-turn recovery. A character may choose to delay, in which case simply remove the counter from the track; when a delaying character wants to act, he simply puts it back on the track at the current segment. A normal attack costs 4 segments; +1/4 for 3 segments, +1/2 for 2 segments, +1 for 1 segment; this does apply to DC calculations. This means you can give a fast weapon a lower segment cost, but it will also then require more strength to increase its damage by +1DC.

[Hierax]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

hmm, the Racetrack system is interesting, but I'm not looking to replace the SPD Chart and SPD Stat. If I was going to make an extreme change I'd go with the detail of Aces & Eights (and the new Hackmaster) which use a "Count" system using seconds and 1/10th's of a second. But here I'm trying to stay a bit closer to Hero. The idea of the race track as a visual aid is a good one that I might try out using boxes for Turns, with little boxes for Segments, and another layer with DEX initiatives.

[Hierax]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

Weapon Speed is also useful for determining and differentiating the time between multiple attacks so that they all don't land on the same DEX count -- e.g., faster to get multiple stabs in with a dagger than multiple smashes in with a sledgehammer maul.

[ayinde]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

real weapon lag:

avg -1/4 -1 to initiative per 10 active points

fast + 1/4 -1per 20 active points

slow - 1/4 -1per 5 active points

[Hierax]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

real weapon lag:

avg -1/4 -1 to initiative per 10 active points

fast + 1/4 -1per 20 active points

slow - 1/4 -1per 5 active points

 

Yes, that's what I've been trying for spells (as part of a RSR-like Limitation along with some Extra Time portions for Sword & Sorcery games), but I wanted to try something a bit different for weapons linked more to the weapon type. But thinking about it again now that you mention it maybe it would work for weapons too...

[Alibear]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

I might build weapon lag as equivilent to weapon length as generally speaking bigger weapons are slower to handle than smaller weapons.

 

Of course large weapons which don't struggle would not take that limitation.

 

 

I think -1 dex for medium weapons and -2 dex for large weapons is enough of a penalty. To be honest it is more detail than I'd want to implement but if I did it that's what I'd do.

[Vulcan]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

I might build weapon lag as equivilent to weapon length as generally speaking bigger weapons are slower to handle than smaller weapons.

 

Of course large weapons which don't struggle would not take that limitation.

 

 

I think -1 dex for medium weapons and -2 dex for large weapons is enough of a penalty. To be honest it is more detail than I'd want to implement but if I did it that's what I'd do.

 

But that totally ignores the range advantage of the larger weapons, which in my experience is a much more telling factor than relative 'speed'. If a thug with a dagger tries to take on a soldier with a greatsword, the greatsword starts swinging when the thug is about 6-7' out... the thug has to survive all the way into touch range to counterattack with his dagger.

 

And before you say 'but if the greatsword misses, the dagger will carve him apart before he can recover... the greatsword checks his swing, chokes up, and takes a stab at about 3' range. Or goes for the guard/pommel strike at touch range.

 

The point is, a greatsword has a lot more options for engagement range than "HASSAN CHOP!" at long range. The dagger really only has one range option - too close for comfort.

[Hierax]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

Weapon Length is important indeed, that's why the Length/Reach rules do apply (FH-5e.186; H6e2.201-202).

 

However, at closer range Weapon Speed applies and the Weapon Length/Reach rules sort of deal with this too (and for most people that bother with Reach/Length rules at all this will be enough) but Weapon Speed is a more detailed way to apply this Length penalty not solely on the basis of Length/Reach of the weapon, also on the mass and weight distribution and various grips, etc.

 

Some of the weapons have multiple uses/grips/applications -- e.g., 2-handed swords can also be used in a grip with one hand part way up the sword which has a very different application than 2 hands on the hilt swinging in terms of speed and reach/length, same applies to a staff: a 2-handed swing has a long reach, a 1-handed swing has a longer reach, but it can be used as a 2 handed middle-gripped for fast blocking and/or short strikes as well.

 

It depends on how much detail one wants, Weapon Speed is on the high-end of detail in a way that supplements the existing reach/length rules.

[Hierax]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

Thanks for the feedback guys!

[Nolgroth]

Re: Weapon Speeds and Casting Times

 

Hey Heirax, thanks for the thread. After looking over everything, I think I really like the whole Negative Lightning Reflexes concept, built as an Adder (Subtracter?) to the specific power.