Can you dispel just one skeleton?

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Can you dispel just one skeleton?

 

Rapier you are correct that I confused the points on the cost of the skeleton. And you are absolutely correct about half desolid and all that. But the point of more skeletons = less active points is where I'll politely disagree with you. The rules state that you can dispell a summoned creature either against the summoner or the creature. So the question is which active points do we use? Now we agree that a skeleton costs 180 pts / 5 equals 36 pts for summon, x4 skeletons = +10 for a grand total of 46 points correct? I'll argue that the dispell must equal to the active points of the power so it would be 36pts, if you are just dispelling one skeleton. Now the adder is a bonus to the summoner, but it doesn't add directly to the active points of the creature. You don't add an additional 25 pts to the original 180 pts because you doubled the amount of creatures summoned. So why would you divided the active points by the number of creatures summoned? What I am understanding from your math is in effect that the more creatures you summoned the weaker they are.

[Rapier]

Re: Can you dispel just one skeleton?

 

Of course' date=' you could also make it very easy on yourself and declare that "All Summoned Undead must be dispelled by Dispelling the Active Points in their build, alone." So even if you have a x128 zombies on your Summon, they would be Dispelled not based off the Active Points in the Summon but the Active Points in the zombie build. So regardless of how a zombie is summoned, to dispel him you have to effect a Dispel of (Total Points in Zombie / 5).[/quote']

 

some would say because it cost 36 points to summon 1 skeleton, it should require 36 points of dispel to dispel 1 skeleton no matter how many skeletons were actually summoned. (this is targeting the skeleton)

However if you target the summoner (assuming the GM permits this) you would probably have to target the entire summon before any disappear - then all would. If you were going for granularity on the latter, you would have the x2 adders get dispelled first halving and halving the number of skeletons (once again assuming the GM permits)

 

Well, you would also have to build your Dispel with the "Can Add/Remove Adders" Advantage. Then you would have to bamboozle/threaten/cajole your GM into allowing the construct to stand.

[Rapier]

Re: Can you dispel just one skeleton?

 

Now the adder is a bonus to the summoner' date=' but it doesn't add directly to the active points of the creature. You don't add an additional 25 pts to the original 180 pts because you doubled the amount of creatures summoned. So why would you divided the active points by the number of creatures summoned? [/quote']

 

While I can understand your feeling and even admit it has merit, the text (6E1, p290) makes no provision for splitting the Adder off from the power for Dispelling purposes.

 

What I am understanding from your math is in effect that the more creatures you summoned the weaker they are.

 

No. Again, you are confusing Active Points in the Summoned Zombie and Active Points in the Summon Power. The zombies are not any weaker than any other zombie. They are all built off the same number of points.

 

I'll admit that there is an interpretation question here, that might even need to go to Steve for an official ruling, but it makes logical sense to me to say that if you have a Summon power that summons 4 zombies, I can Dispel one zombie by rolling enough points on my Dispel to equal/exceed the Active Points in the Summon / 4. Among other things, this is good for balance. Doubling the amount of zombie you can summon for 5 points is a GREAT deal. That's dirt cheap. It would be very easy to get to the point of being able to summon an entire undead army.

 

Edit: At the end of the day, do whatever makes sense in your game. I'm just trying to explain the process/decisions we went through in my game. If you want to do it differently, go ahead!

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Can you dispel just one skeleton?

 

First off I'm not being confused about active points in the power. I not explaining myself well though. But when I said that I getting that you think about more skeletons the cheaper they get get, isn't this part of your quote.

 

16 Skele (36pt base + 5pt x2 Adder + 5pt x2 Adder + 5pt x2 Adder + 5pt x2 Adder) = 7pts per Skele

 

This is one of the 'issues' with having adders on powers. It is possible to stack adders for an increasingly smaller cost per unit. That's how the system works. If you don't like that, take it up with Steve.

 

 

That is where I'm geting that from. Now again, I could be misunderstanding your post, and I'll apologize in advance if I'm wrong.

 

I believe I said that the skelton is 180 pts, correct? And the summon power for one skeleton is 36 pts-correct? Then x2 skeletons is +5 pts, additional x2 is another +5 pts for a total +10, correct? So total cost for the summoner is 46 pts for (4) skeletons each one worth 180 character points. Now I don't think that there is an argument that to dispel the summon power the dispeller needs to beat the 46 active points the total summon is built. So we are back to the original question of the op, can you dispell just one skeleton, and how so? Unless this has changed in 6th, you are able to dispell either the summoners power, or the creature itself. So then the question then becomes, how many active points do you need to dispell the creature? So to me the logical answer is 36pts, the base cost of one summoned skeleton. Without further guidence from Mr. Long, this can be done with a simple limitation: One at a time

(-1/2) ?

[torchwolf]

Re: Can you dispel just one skeleton?

 

I think the following applies to Rapier's reasoning on this matter:

 

Charges: With the GM’s permission, a character can use an Adjustment Power just to affect a target power’s Charges. Divide the Active Points in the power by the number of Charges it has. Using the resulting “point total” for each Charge, apply the Adjustment Power as per normal. Of course, the GM should forbid any use of this rule that seems abusive or unbalancing, such as Adjusting Charges which Never Recover.

If a power has Continuing Charges, and an Adjustment Power is applied to it, the Adjustment Power typically affects the entire power (i.e., all Charges, whether in use or not), not just the Charge currently in effect. However, at the GM’s option, a character could declare that he wants to Adjust only the Charge(s) in effect at a particular time (or the GM may restrict him to doing so).

Now, I'm not sure if this was a 5ER or 6E question, but the same general reasoning could apply.

This would mean that to dispel a Charge of Summoning from the skeleton-summoner's wand can at the GM's option be a lot easier, while dispelling one of the summoner's daily uses of a Summon spell might not be as easily allowable, also depending on the GM.

 

I believe I said that the skelton is 180 pts' date=' correct? And the summon power for one skeleton is 36 pts-correct? Then x2 skeletons is +5 pts, additional x2 is another +5 pts for a total +10, correct? So total cost for the summoner is 46 pts for (4) skeletons each one worth 180 character points. Now I don't think that there is an argument that to dispel the summon power the dispeller needs to beat the 46 active points the total summon is built. So we are back to the original question of the op, can you dispell just one skeleton, and how so? Unless this has changed in 6th, you are able to dispell either the summoners power, or the creature itself. So then the question then becomes, how many active points do you need to dispell the creature? So to me the logical answer is 36pts, the base cost of one summoned skeleton. Without further guidence from Mr. Long, this can be done with a simple limitation: One at a time (-1/2) ?[/quote']

This is of course a reasonable solution as well an answer to the OP's question.

 

Just to muddy the waters again:

It would depend on the GM to some extent; if the Summon Skeleton spell is envisioned as a stronger interconnected spell which keeps animating all the skeletons, all the Active Points of the Summon should probably be the target. If the same spell is envisioned as the caster actually summoning 16 separate unholy forces each animating a single skeleton, it would be more reasonable to use Dispel vs the (Single Total Skeleton Points)/5 as the Active Points.

Alternately, both options could be available: Dispel could be used to target either the Summon spell or the individual skeleton. This would also still be a GM call, though.

 

EDIT: To be clear: this last section is essentially me restating what Rapier already said upthread, and the reference at the top of this post just refers to the issue of points-per-summoned-being suggestions posted.

 

As Rapier stated on January 7:

Of course' date=' you could also make it very easy on yourself and declare that "All Summoned Undead must be dispelled by Dispelling the Active Points in their build, alone." So even if you have a x128 zombies on your Summon, they would be Dispelled not based off the Active Points in the Summon but the Active Points in the zombie build. So regardless of how a zombie is summoned, to dispel him you have to effect a Dispel of (Total Points in Zombie / 5).[/quote']

[Rapier]

Re: Can you dispel just one skeleton?

 

I believe I said that the skelton is 180 pts, correct? And the summon power for one skeleton is 36 pts-correct? Then x2 skeletons is +5 pts, additional x2 is another +5 pts for a total +10, correct? So total cost for the summoner is 46 pts for (4) skeletons each one worth 180 character points. Now I don't think that there is an argument that to dispel the summon power the dispeller needs to beat the 46 active points the total summon is built. So we are back to the original question of the op, can you dispell just one skeleton, and how so? Unless this has changed in 6th, you are able to dispell either the summoners power, or the creature itself. So then the question then becomes, how many active points do you need to dispell the creature? So to me the logical answer is 36pts, the base cost of one summoned skeleton. Without further guidence from Mr. Long, this can be done with a simple limitation: One at a time

(-1/2) ?

 

Of course' date=' you could also make it very easy on yourself and declare that "All Summoned Undead must be dispelled by Dispelling the Active Points in their build, alone." So even if you have a x128 zombies on your Summon, they would be Dispelled not based off the Active Points in the Summon but the Active Points in the zombie build. So regardless of how a zombie is summoned, to dispel him you have to effect a Dispel of (Total Points in Zombie / 5).[/quote']

 

I wrote that on 7 January.

[torchwolf]

Re: Can you dispel just one skeleton?

 

I wrote that on 7 January.

Not my intention to either misrepresent your position nor claim credit for this.

I amended my post to make this clear, no offense intended.

[Rapier]

Re: Can you dispel just one skeleton?

 

Not my intention to either misrepresent your position nor claim credit for this. I amended my post to make this clear' date=' no offense intended. [/quote']

 

Oh no, don't worry about it. My intent was to point out that it seems I was trying to be convinced on a point I had brought forth over a week previously, and in a rather backhanded manner to point out that reading previous posts is sometimes helpful.

 

S'all good.