This shouldn't be hard

[Jeff]

I'm trying to do a spell. I'd like to conjure a sword out of thin air. After it's conjured, it's a perfectly ordinary sword, for anyone to use, to take away wherever, a sword that can go on to have a perfectly ordinary sword-y life just like all the other swords that started life in a forge.

 

I'd rather not just use Major Transform if I can avoid it, since, after all, we're not supposed to use Major Transform for creating weapons. We're supposed to use Usable on Others.

 

So I go there. It starts off without range. If you get it range, it still requires line of sight and will go away if the caster is unconscious. But getting it 0 END and Persistent can fix that.

 

Ordinary swords don't go poof when the swordsmith dies, so that needs to be fixed. Uncontrolled should do that, and it would cut off the range tie completely.

 

The next kicker though is that a swordsmith isn't kept from forging new swords because he's already forged a few already. But at least normally, when you use Usable on Other to grant someone a power, you can't then go on and grant it to one person more after another while the first person gets to keep using it. You can increase the number of people who can use it simultaneously, but that doesn't get you true independence of the later applications from the earlier ones - it just delays, at a fair cost in active points, the time at which you run into the Conjure No More barrier.

 

I'd find it plausible to rule that Uncontrolled might cut that tie too. If not, is there anything else that would, or are we forced back to Major Transform in the end anyway?

[keithcurtis]

Re: This shouldn't be hard

 

How about Summon? Just go by the active points in the sword. Should be pretty cheap.

 

Keith "Keepin' it simple" Curtis

[McCoy]

How about HKA without a focus limitation? Take persistant and useable by others if you like.

[bjbrown]

I don't think that a Major Transform is inappropriate here. One of the uses of Major Transform is creation of permanent objects. I don't think an ordinary sword, which could otherwise be bought in a store, is necessarily unbalancing. If the spell created Stormbringer, on the other hand, that would fall into the unbalancing category for creation of objects, and thus be inappropriate for a Major Transform.

[Jeff]

Thanks, all. I was really hoping Usable on Others could be part of the solution, but I'm not married to it. Losing the focus limitation wouldn't do it, as the ultimate problem is just that cap on usable on others - it's just not going to be so glaringly wrong without the focus involved, but it's still going to be wrong.

 

I think I'll plunk down on the Summon route. It'd be very tidy for my conjuration school anyway, since that's how I'm handling whipping up rafts, canoes, carts, and cabins for them already. I'd been reluctant to use Summon for this since vehicles and computers are written up as characters of sorts and foci aren't, but I figure that's a line I can tolerate crossing. I think Summon might do better than Transform since the actual capabilities of the finished product have a tighter relation there to the cost of the spell to produce it than they would with a Transform.

 

Mechanically, this could open up a worrisome possibility of an alternative way to make magic items. But I'm the GM and perfectly able to quash attempts to use the mechanic to produce lasting magic items. I wouldn't mind it necessarily for some spell for a temporary magic item, but my conjuration school is all about the creation of mundane things through magic.

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't want to think a swordsmith had to pay all the points for those Independent swords out there. Maybe the simple rule for a Fantasy Hero campaign should be that, if you can buy it for money, you can Summon it with a spell (or create it with a Transform).

 

That means you can create a sword, as you wish to do, but not a magical sword, which you note should not be permitted as it circumvents the magical item rules.

 

It also means I can't do this in a Supers campaign, which is again reasonable - the recipient would have to pay the points, or I would have to pay them for Usable on Others.

[cutsleeve]

something like this?

 

I just did this for the hell of it please dont be to harsh about math or accuracy or anything like that its just a general example of how this might be done.

 

Summon: Big Sword +1/4 cost: 51

 

Big Sword - built as automaton

Str,Dex,Con,Int,Ego,Pre = 0

Body 10

Comliness 10

 

Pd 10 cost 10

Ed 10 cost 10

Spd,Rec,End,Stun,Run,Swim,Leap 0

 

Disadvantages:

Distinctive Feature: Not Concealable, Always Noticed (generally swordlike) points: 20

Phsyical Limitation: All The Time, Fully Imparing (has the manipulation of a sword)

Physical Limitation: Str,Dex,Con,Int,Pre = 0 points 80

 

Abilities:

Life support: Immune to all diseases and poisons 20pts, safe environments (high and low pressure, vaccum, high radiation. intense cold) 7pts, doesnt need to eat or sleep 6pts, Doesnt need to breath 10pts, immortal 5pts. total cost: 48

 

Automaton Abilities:

Cannot be stunned 15pts, doesnt bleed 15pts, no hit locations 10pts, takes no stun 60pts total cost: 100

 

Damage Resistance: 10PD 10ED Cost: 10

 

Killing Attack/Hand to Hand:2D6 +1 stun multiplier (+/4), 0Endurance (+1/2), Usable By Others (+1/4), Strength Minimum 17 (-3/4), Required Hands 2 (-1/2) AC: 60 RC:26

 

Hows that you summon a random Big sword and after you are done using it it wander off into the forest to be happy and free with the rest of the big swords. Oh wait 0 ego and int ok it just lays there happily with all the other big swords or something like that.

[Rene]

I say just use a Transform for ordinary swords. I find it nonsensical that you can use Transform to give someone Wolverine's claws, but not a ordinary sword.

[cutsleeve]

wolverines claws are implanted cybernetic claws which spring out from his hands. a sword is a focus. plus eventually the sword will fade away because it was transformed and what about the fact that all transformed things have a way of being untransformed by a set event. i think a summon fits better with the concept plus with it you can change around its abilities like make it a gun just rename it Big Gun (make it a 2d6 ranged killing attack and poof its a Rifle.) (Or Give it a high flight speed with one continuous charge for say a turn. and give it back its dex of 10 give it about 20 pts worth of csl's only with hand to hand killing attack. The make its hand to hand killing attack explosive and you have a guided missle)

 

i just think summon is better:D

[Rene]

Making swords out of thin air as Summon and building the swords as a character complete with Life Support and stuff sounds like over-engineering to me. Much more work than it's worth, IMO.

 

I can see how it can be a fun intelectual exercise, but in an actual game with me as GM I'd just tell the player to get on with it and make do with a Transform and be damned what the book recommends.

 

But then that is just me. I also happen to think Mental Paralysis as Entangles with 347 Power Modifiers is over-complicating when we have Mind Control with Set Effect: Don't Move available. I also don't like how some powers are built with Aid with a billion modifiers when you could simulate them with Limited Characteristics or Skills.

 

It's that sort of thing that scares away newbie players from HERO. Overcomplication.

 

A sword is a Focus in superhero campaigns, sure. But in heroic campaigns ordinary swords are just objects. I don't see the harm in allowing Transform to create ordinary swords. And most Magical Transforms could have as "Untransformation" trigger any sort of Dispel Magics, for instance.

 

 

Originally posted by cutsleeve

wolverines claws are implanted cybernetic claws which spring out from his hands. a sword is a focus. plus eventually the sword will fade away because it was transformed and what about the fact that all transformed things have a way of being untransformed by a set event. i think a summon fits better with the concept plus with it you can change around its abilities like make it a gun just rename it Big Gun (make it a 2d6 ranged killing attack and poof its a Rifle.) (Or Give it a high flight speed with one continuous charge for say a turn. and give it back its dex of 10 give it about 20 pts worth of csl's only with hand to hand killing attack. The make its hand to hand killing attack explosive and you have a guided missle)

 

i just think summon is better:D

[cutsleeve]

well both my arguement and yours are nothing more then personal opinion i wasnt telling him thats how he should do it i was responding to someone elses post saying summon was a way to do it. i showed how. The life support is a thorough method of handling it when alot of things can be handwaved some Gm's dont like alot of handwaving. Thats a matter of personal preferance or style. i stated mine i liked the idea of a summon to get the sword and i think a transform is a questionable way of doing it but then again thats my opinion.

[Rene]

Sure. You should use whatever works for you. Your views are as valid as mine. I just said that I'd let a character use Transform in this case if I were the GM. But if I played in your game, I'd respect your judgment as a GM.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by cutsleeve

eventually the sword will fade away because it was transformed and what about the fact that all transformed things have a way of being untransformed by a set event.

 

Sooner or later it will get broken, or rust. That is the way of things. That's a good enough "reversion event" for this GM, at least in a heroic campaign.

 

Even in superheroic, why not? If someone wants to keep dragging the sword around, he'll have to shell out the points.

 

Besides, Summon requires handwaving too. What happens when your Summon ruins out of tasks? The FAQ suggests even a slavishly devoted Summoned creature only performs a set number of tasks before leaving.

[cutsleeve]

automaton : )

 

he has no ego and therefore cannot resist commands given to him. he is a sword and in fact will accept the order to work if someone gets hold of him thats why i set up the abilities like i did no int no ego no str no con only body pd ed comliness cause who wants to weild an ugly sword. life support to represent that he doesnt need alot of stuff and a sword is immune to alot of stuff and also the automaton abilities to represent how he cant be stunned or bleed or take stun and an attack usable by others (the weilder of him)

[Hugh Neilson]

How expensive would that Summon be for the merits of what is obtained? Remember to triple the costs of defenses and add +1 Advantage to the Summon since it's "slavishly loyal" because it's an automaton.

 

I'd go with the Transform. Otherwise, everyone else should have to buy their Automaton swords as Followers.

[cutsleeve]

well like i said i was just posting it up as an example maybe not an accurate one but it would work. one other method would be to just give yourself: Hand Killing Attack 2D6 +1 stun multiplier (+1/4), 0End (+1/2), OIF (-1/2) Universal (he can always summon another and anyone can use the ones uses or get taken away from him), 2Handed (-1/2), Str Min (-3/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) AC: 52 RC: 17

 

This solves the problem no summon needed no transform needed the fact that he can summon it makes it Innaccessable. The fact that others can use the swords he summons makes it Universal. You could use the same thing for say Pixie dust you have a bag full of pixie dust and if you throw it at people they become gophers and someone could steal a bit of your pixie dust and use it themselves but you still have pixie dust.

 

I think this is also a good method and costs only 2 more points then the 1d6 of Major Transform and is loosely based (a little handwaving might be required) on the rules present under Foci. :D

[cutsleeve]

Basically what im saying is that the summoning is just a special effect explaing why a sword is Innacessable. Obvious because you can see it hit someone feel it hit someone and often times hear it hit someone. Universal because anyone who makes a standard disarm roll would be able to take it and use it cause its an ordinary sword but it takes more to permanently remove the power from him which is how Innaccessable works.

 

It all really boils down to the special effect as a GM id rule that hey you can be disarmed normally but this doesnt prevent you from getting another sword it just gives your opponent one if he wants it. SFX SFX SFX yummy.

[Hugh Neilson]

I like cutsleeve's suggestion, with one concern: if you want to conjure up half a dozen swords and arm a group, you need Usable By Others as well.