Musings on Grab

[Phil]

I'm slowly working my way through 6E, and my original thought was I'd read it once and then go back through it with a notebook to write down all those quirky things that occured to me as I went along. Four weeks in, and I can see that's unrealistic! So, having just read the 6E2 on Grabs, thought I'd drop my thoughts in straightaway.

 

1. Implications of Grabbing one-handed

Grabbing with one-hand works at STR-5 (the log. equivalent of half strength, using the lifting scale). Does this imply that attacking with one hand (e.g. a punch) should also be STR-5. What about attacking with the other hand while the opponent is grabbed?

 

2. Limbs and Headbutts

We all have 5 limbs. I can accept that a good kick will deal out at least as much pain as a hefty punch. But a headbutt? Can Batman really headbutt his way through an interior house wall? And at no harm to himself?

 

3. Grabs and Utility of Damage

As it stands, Squeezes and Slams are of equally utility. This doesn't seem quite right to me. It occurs to me that the advantage of a squeeze is that you're reinforcing the grab while damaging your opponent; the downside being that you're needing to remain relatively immobile and are exerting a longer-term effect. It would be well modelled as a Continuous, cumulative effect of some kind imho, with a hefty DCV penalty. A slam, on the other hand, should increase the risk of losing grip on your opponent, but implies a higher level of mobility and should almost certainly inflict more immediate damage.

 

4. Grabbing large targets

This section, and indeed the section on stopping moving objects, suggests that characters can exert all of their strength on all objects. It strikes me that the key factor is actually the mass of the grabber - strength will help determine whether you can hold on and also help you dig your feet into the asphalt tug-of-war style, but if you want to slow something down, Density Increase, Growth or Clinging ought to do you more good than simply being Captain Buff.

 

5. No HA on Grab damage

This is one of many, many, many annoyances I've found in the rules. The "Cannots". To me, Hero is a toolkit that tells me how to create the effect I want, and we all love that flexibility. To read, over and over again, of the things you "cannot" do doesn't half get my goat! Anyway, after that rant it's a relatively minor point: it would be good to reference how you'd make a HA that did add to Grab damage, i.e. limited Strength.

 

6. Grabs, Multiple Limbs and Foci

A grab typically targets 2 limbs. An extra-limbed character may well be able to still use OAF while grabbed. As such, are multiple limbs too cheap!? Or should OAF cost them more?

 

That'll do for now

[Doc Samson]

Re: Musings on Grab

 

5. No HA on Grab damage

This is one of many, many, many annoyances I've found in the rules. The "Cannots". To me, Hero is a toolkit that tells me how to create the effect I want, and we all love that flexibility. To read, over and over again, of the things you "cannot" do doesn't half get my goat! Anyway, after that rant it's a relatively minor point: it would be good to reference how you'd make a HA that did add to Grab damage, i.e. limited Strength.

This one is particulary annoying to me as well.

 

You can't increase the damage from Grab with HA, CSLs, or Martial Arts (6E2, pg. 62). Does that leave only STR? If so that means the only way to increase Grab damage without building a character with Super Strength is to buy STR with a special Limitation. Unless I'm missing something, this seems a little unwieldy to me.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Musings on Grab

 

Well, extra STR only to improve your hold and/or increase damage in a grab should technically still be a viable option (though off the top of my head I'm not sure what the best Limitation value for that would be). After all, Hand-to-Hand Attack is itself kind of explained as 'limited STR' in its description, so there's precedent for that sort of thing.

 

That said, simply allowing a character to increase damage from a grab via appropriate CSLs, Martial Arts extra DCs, or a HA with the right special effect wouldn't strike me as horribly unbalancing. You still have to make an attack roll each time you want to actually deal that damage, after all; it's not 'automatic'. (Unless one wanted to argue that it indeed is that one time after the Grab has been established, but then you had to hit for that in the first place, too...)

 

And yeah, the Grab rules do rather seem to unconsciously assume that everybody on the playing field is of more or less humanoid configuration (and usually size) by default, don't they? Is there any chance that we could get a representative of Tentacle Monsters Anonymous in here to comment on this?

[Ice9]

Re: Musings on Grab

 

The issue with that you get into when you start thinking about limited Strength versus HA, is that HA is overpriced compared to Strength (or Strength is underpriced compared to HA, depending on your point of view).

For example, if you try to build HA as limited strength, you get this:

 

+5 STR

Not to Resist Grabs or Shoves

Not for Casual Strength

Not for Grabbing, Shoving, Throwing, or Lifting

 

Each of these limitations is worth at least -1/4 by itself! That's a lot more than the total -1/4 that HA gets.

Now in practice, the price difference isn't huge, so it doesn't cause too much trouble. But it does cause some oddity in situations like this one.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Musings on Grab

 

The issue with that you get into when you start thinking about limited Strength versus HA, is that HA is overpriced compared to Strength (or Strength is underpriced compared to HA, depending on your point of view).

For example, if you try to build HA as limited strength, you get this:

 

+5 STR

Not to Resist Grabs or Shoves

Not for Casual Strength

Not for Grabbing, Shoving, Throwing, or Lifting

 

Each of these limitations is worth at least -1/4 by itself! That's a lot more than the total -1/4 that HA gets.

Now in practice, the price difference isn't huge, so it doesn't cause too much trouble. But it does cause some oddity in situations like this one.

 

Yes, and if I take "Missing one hand" on a per-finger basis, I should get more points out of it, too.

 

Honestly, a case can arguably be made that adding to hand-to-hand damage is the primary use of STR in combat. There are others, but they're kind of secondary to "each time I land a blow in melee, I get to roll this many extra dice". Taking Hand-to-Hand Attack is basically saying that you're willing to settle for getting only that main benefit in order to get a cost break, and for that sort of thing a -1/4 Limitation looks fine to me. A Limitation that restricts me to only using a power, skill, or other ability in the way I plan to use it anyway isn't that much of a limitation, after all.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Musings on Grab

 

The reason none of those items can add to a Grab is that each one is, in and of itself, a separate Attack.

 

A Grab is an Attack Maneuver - which means you can't simply add in abilities from another Attack Action/Maneuver.

 

Couple Grab with Multiple Attack and I'd definitely let you use your HA, another Martial Maneuver or other Attack with the Grab Damage. In fact, it's specifically mentioned on page 75 that doing this is what you're really doing.

[Ice9]

Re: Musings on Grab

 

Taking Hand-to-Hand Attack is basically saying that you're willing to settle for getting only that main benefit in order to get a cost break, and for that sort of thing a -1/4 Limitation looks fine to me. A Limitation that restricts me to only using a power, skill, or other ability in the way I plan to use it anyway isn't that much of a limitation, after all.

Yes, but those "secondary benefits" are pretty important. For instance, what would you price "Slow Hydraulics - Strength, Not for Punching"? Would it be a -4 limitation? Would it even be -2? While there is the concept that the whole might cost somewhat less than the sum of its parts, I don't think it's accurate to say that the non-punching aspects of strength are simultaneously "less than a quarter of the total value" and "half or more of the total value".

 

And while a character might choose to never use Grab or Shove, or lift anything heavy, they can't choose to never be Grabbed, Shoved, or Entangled, so the defensive benefits of Strength apply to anyone.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Musings on Grab

 

Hand Attack; STR Only To Do Damage -1/4.

 

You can use it in a Grab, but since Hand Attack is a separate Power from Strength, it would constitute a Multiple Attack. Your model is simply wrong.

[stevec]

Re: Musings on Grab

 

The issue with that you get into when you start thinking about limited Strength versus HA, is that HA is overpriced compared to Strength (or Strength is underpriced compared to HA, depending on your point of view).

For example, if you try to build HA as limited strength, you get this:

 

+5 STR

Not to Resist Grabs or Shoves

Not for Casual Strength

Not for Grabbing, Shoving, Throwing, or Lifting

 

Each of these limitations is worth at least -1/4 by itself! That's a lot more than the total -1/4 that HA gets.

Now in practice, the price difference isn't huge, so it doesn't cause too much trouble. But it does cause some oddity in situations like this one.

As someone who's a longtime Hero player (even though this is post #2 from me...I had an account back on the old boards) I'd say the problem is because of the granularity of the system at low level advantages and disadvantages. If you think about it, those drawbacks probably do amount to more than a -1/4 limitation, but are they really worth -1/2? Sometimes you have to make a judgement call on powers that are on the edge. I think Steve would say that a -1/2 limitation would be too good a deal for the power.

 

If I were running a game and someone proposed that they wanted a bigger limitation, I would probably agree, but also let them know that taking a -1/2 it means the limitation will come into play more often...and ask if they're sure they want that.

 

--Steve

[Ice9]

Re: Musings on Grab

 

Hand Attack; STR Only To Do Damage -1/4.

 

You can use it in a Grab, but since Hand Attack is a separate Power from Strength, it would constitute a Multiple Attack. Your model is simply wrong.

But if instead of "Hand Attack", you just bought "+X STR, Only to Do Damage (-1/4)", then it would add to damage in a Grab.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Musings on Grab

 

Read Hand Attack - it tells you the idea it's constructed from, and I've spelled it out here clearly as well. Since it's listed as a separate power, it's not just "limited strength" - but that's how/why the costing came about.

 

And one more time: you can add your HA Attack Damage to Grab with a Multiple Attack; Combined Attack.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Musings on Grab

 

Read Hand Attack - it tells you the idea it's constructed from' date=' and I've spelled it out here clearly as well. Since it's listed as a separate power, it's not just "limited strength" - but that's how/why the costing came about.[/quote']

 

GA, do you see Hand Attack doing something other than providing limited STR? That is, what do you perceive HA providing that unlimited STR would not provide?

 

And one more time: you can add your HA Attack Damage to Grab with a Multiple Attack; Combined Attack.

 

I don't agree with this interpretation. I think you can do a Hand Attack and a Grab using Multiple Attackor, possibly, combined attack, but this does not add your Hand Attack damage to a Grab, it inflicts both a Hand Attack and a Grab at the same time. The OP appears to have a power in mind which adds to both punches and grab damage. It doesn't seem unreasonable to expect the system can handle such a power.

 

If Major Mace has a +10d6 Hand Attack due to the large mace attached to his right hand, I have difficulty conceptualizing how he would combine that with a Sqeuuze of an already grabbed target. However, if Lady Elastic has a Hand Attack based on the use of her amorphous form, it seems perfectly reasonable, conceptually, that she could add damage with a Grab or a Punch. As such, there should be a mechanic for Major Mace, and for Lady Elastic. Given Major Mace is more restricted, it would seem reasonable for him to pay less, but using the Hand Attack mechanic for both means they pay the same.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Musings on Grab

 

Maybe the problem is (partly) with the interpretation. See, as far as I am concerned, you don't DO damage with Grab; you do damage with Squeeze (or a couple other options), which just happens to require that you have the target in a Grab first (and Grab just happens to allow you to do an immediate Squeeze instead of waiting for your next Phase). So CSLs, at least, would have to apply to the Squeeze maneuver rather than Grab.

 

Similarly, while HA and the Grab-based Martial maneuvers don't increase your Squeeze damage (because they affect Grab, not Squeeze), there's no reason you couldn't come up with a limited Str or a custom Power or Martial maneuver that would.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Musings on Grab

 

I once suggested making a -0 advantage for HA where you could define the dice as something other than Strike, such as for disarm. And I was told by the Head Honcho-no. Well RAW its a no. And I scratch my head because rebuying it this way than the special ability in UMA 4th costs more.

 

Oh and Ice9 I also asked about the value about no lifting and the official answer was it was worth a -0 lim at most.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Musings on Grab

 

GA' date=' do you see Hand Attack doing something other than providing limited STR? That is, what do you perceive HA providing that unlimited STR would not provide?[/quote']

 

The entire problem I have with Hand Attack is that blasted required Limitation. If confuses the whole issue.

 

However -the book is exceedingly clear that Hand Attack is "in effect" STR that's Limited. It's ALSO a completely separate Power. Adjustment Powers that affect STR do not affect Hand Attack - this can be a significant advantage, or it could be a wash.

 

Drain STR will Drain a Power bought as STR:Limited Some Way and will not Drain Hand Attack.

A separate distinction from STR for those purposes is not a minor thing, IMO, and while we can wax philosophic all day about how we think Hand Attack is built (or continuously point out how the book says it's built) - it's not actually Strength - it's Hand Attack which is to say it is Normal Hand To Hand Damage.

 

Making it a completely separate Power - which is what it is - means it doesn't randomly add up with other Powers. No more than your Hand Killing Attack adds to Grab Squeeze Damage, or your Energy Blast does, or your Drain Does, or anything else in the book that isn't Actually Strength. Because that's the nature of Grab, and has nothing to do with the nature of other Powers.