A bad Situation(Kind of Long post/rant)

[Patriot]

***Update***

 

Stellar was not able to attend game tonight, but this is what transpired:

The team grouped at based to discuss the state of the team,

and what should be done about the current situation. it was a near unanimous descision, suppport Stellar, but this shouldnt go unpunished(details still being worked out)

Many wondered what his punishment would be, and they found out it could come in a wide range of forms, from 30 years of community service for Leichtenstein ( and cant leave the borders) incarciration, or termination. questions were posed...where is Eurostar?: A member was dispatched to try and figure this out.

 

during the team meeting , a lot of other things were discussed, like doing more for the community, tearing down the team and re-building it , etc, in the end they all decided that the team should work to strive so nothing like this ever hapens again.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: ***Update***

 

Originally posted by Patriot

Stellar was not able to attend game tonight, but this is what transpired:

The team grouped at based to discuss the state of the team,

and what should be done about the current situation. it was a near unanimous descision, suppport Stellar, but this shouldnt go unpunished(details still being worked out)

Many wondered what his punishment would be, and they found out it could come in a wide range of forms, from 30 years of community service for Leichtenstein ( and cant leave the borders) incarciration, or termination. questions were posed...where is Eurostar?: A member was dispatched to try and figure this out.

 

during the team meeting , a lot of other things were discussed, like doing more for the community, tearing down the team and re-building it , etc, in the end they all decided that the team should work to strive so nothing like this ever hapens again.

 

Thanks for the update.

 

Sounds like the team is a but mixed mind. When I read "support Stellar", it sounds very different from the "punishment" options listed. It sounds like accepting any of the three alternatives effectively removes Stellar from the campaign and forces the player to create a new character.

 

Did they happen to address what happens if Stellar rejects punishment for his actions? Will they continue to back him, or does the team then back up the UN in imposing some form of punishment on Stellar? This would mean that, whatever the character choices, the player is looking at a retired PC. The options from the above seem to be:

 

- PC in Leichenstein doing community service

- PC incarcerated doing time

- PC terminated doing nothing

- PC on the run

 

All of which mean PC not operating with the team, so not a viable player character. I'm not sure how you plan to approach this, Patriot. I'd consider a one on one discussion with the player that, basically, the decisions made by the team mean that Stellar WILL be retired from the game, although the manner of such retirement is largely dictated by the player's choices. He can then decide how Stellar will respond to these decisions. If it were me, I woud also rule that, if Stellar chooses to run, or fight against his punishment, he will be an NPC. Maybe play out the hunt/escape, but this can cause hard feelings in the group, so maybe not. I'd lean to "not" if it comes to that - all yoou need is Stellar to kill another PC or some similar result!

 

Maybe the character is repentant and removed from the campaign (and we all know sentences like these can be reduced by actions in the game world). Maybe he's not and the team has to bring him in - whether to run that on-screen or off-screen is a good question. As is whether Stelllar is a PC or an NPC for the hunt/battle.

 

Either way, the player needs a new character and Stellar is out of the campaign, at least as a PC. Maybe you even get an new megavillain, given the power level you noted earlier.

[J4y]

Now, does anyone think the SWAT team acted properly here? If you read about a similar incident in the LA Times, would you call for the SWAT team to be given medals for heroism or fired from the LAPD?

 

In real life a SWAT team wouldn't do anything like walk up to the terroist leader like that, but in a movie... yep, they'd get medals. Hey, not like they called in gunships to hose the place down and kill a 14 year old boy.

 

from 30 years of community service for Leichtenstein ( and cant leave the borders) incarciration,

 

Hehe, for pulling a floor, which I think it causing death in the first place is silly, he gets 30 years? Please tell me the Eurostar guy that threatened to kill the hostage is going to get executed then. Unlike accidental death during an operation against a terrorist organization, things like kidnapping, hostage taking with intent to kill etc. ARE actual crimes. Oh let me guess, $400 fine for Eurostar.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by J4y

from 30 years of community service for Leichtenstein ( and cant leave the borders) incarciration,

 

Hehe, for pulling a floor, which I think it causing death in the first place is silly, he gets 30 years? Please tell me the Eurostar guy that threatened to kill the hostage is going to get executed then. Unlike accidental death during an operation against a terrorist organization, things like kidnapping, hostage taking with intent to kill etc. ARE actual crimes. Oh let me guess, $400 fine for Eurostar.

 

Yeah, pull the structural support from most buildings and they're just fine - they stand there perfectly OK. No risk at all to the occupants. The sense I got is that this isn't a 3' hole - it's a massive portion of the floor which gets extracted along with everyone else in the area.

 

As far as actual crimes, breaking and entering is also a crime, as is unlawful entry. Which one applies here depends on whether Team Vanguard actually had to break something.

 

"an operation against a terrorist organization" seems to imply some official sanction, which a SWAT team at least would have had. I've seen nothing to indicate Team Vanguard had any official sanction. This would logically come from Leichenstein itself (action within their borders would be subject to their laws) or an international body (such as the UN - which would imply they wouldn't be quite so loud about the results). The United States, for example, would have no jurisdiction outside their borders, so official sanction from US authorities would not support Team Vanguard's actions (not that there is any indication US sanction was provided either).

 

So, based on the facts, and assuming i've got them right (Patriot - any misconceptions above?), Stellar/Team Vanguard's actions caused the death of several civilians during a quasi-military action not sanctioned by any legitimate authority. In other words, a terrorist action.

 

I suspect Eurostar is convicted and sentenced. Now catch them and get them to serve their crimes. There is every possibility Stellar will soon be convicted and sentenced, with the same problem.

 

And what would have happened if Team Vanguard had, in fact, protected the civilians and maybe brought in a Eurostar member or two? Well, I suspect the results of their actions would have overridden their blatant illegality, and they would have had medals pinned on them. Instead, Stellar managed to open them up to having something entirely different "pinned on them".

[Agent X]

Originally posted by J4y

Now, does anyone think the SWAT team acted properly here? If you read about a similar incident in the LA Times, would you call for the SWAT team to be given medals for heroism or fired from the LAPD?

 

In real life a SWAT team wouldn't do anything like walk up to the terroist leader like that, but in a movie... yep, they'd get medals. Hey, not like they called in gunships to hose the place down and kill a 14 year old boy.

 

from 30 years of community service for Leichtenstein ( and cant leave the borders) incarciration,

 

Hehe, for pulling a floor, which I think it causing death in the first place is silly, he gets 30 years? Please tell me the Eurostar guy that threatened to kill the hostage is going to get executed then. Unlike accidental death during an operation against a terrorist organization, things like kidnapping, hostage taking with intent to kill etc. ARE actual crimes. Oh let me guess, $400 fine for Eurostar.

You need to study how houses are built.

[Phraze]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Yeah, pull the structural support from most buildings and they're just fine - they stand there perfectly OK. No risk at all to the occupants. The sense I got is that this isn't a 3' hole - it's a massive portion of the floor which gets extracted along with everyone else in the area.

 

Once again, I think this is mostly a case of people getting different interpretations from the brief summary of facts presented by Patriot. Without seeing a map (and I don't really want to see one at this point, since Patriot makes things sound as if the situation is well on its way to being resolved), I gathered from the description (iirc, he teleported the group and a section of floor, killing normals in another section of the building) I gathered that he took a section of floor (only) out of a fairly large room. Admittedly, I'm not an architect, but it doesn't strike me that this would cause the collapse of a building, unless supporting pillars or load-bearing walls were taken as well, especially if the floor were taken without a violent shock, which is what I imagine in a teleport situation. Flooring doesn't strike me as a "structural support" in the way walls or pillars are, especially one room in a much larger structure. It may make it unstable, but I wouldn't see it collapsing the building so completely and instantly that more of the normals coudn't have gotten out.

 

But then, of course, Stellar wouldn't have been taught a lesson.

 

Then again, this is a very old winery, which means the room in question may have contained a lot of pillars which were taken with the floor, in which case I would expect a collapse...

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Phraze

Once again, I think this is mostly a case of people getting different interpretations from the brief summary of facts presented by Patriot. Without seeing a map (and I don't really want to see one at this point, since Patriot makes things sound as if the situation is well on its way to being resolved), I gathered from the description (iirc, he teleported the group and a section of floor, killing normals in another section of the building) I gathered that he took a section of floor (only) out of a fairly large room. Admittedly, I'm not an architect, but it doesn't strike me that this would cause the collapse of a building, unless supporting pillars or load-bearing walls were taken as well, especially if the floor were taken without a violent shock, which is what I imagine in a teleport situation. Flooring doesn't strike me as a "structural support" in the way walls or pillars are, especially one room in a much larger structure. It may make it unstable, but I wouldn't see it collapsing the building so completely and instantly that more of the normals coudn't have gotten out.

 

But then, of course, Stellar wouldn't have been taught a lesson.

 

Then again, this is a very old winery, which means the room in question may have contained a lot of pillars which were taken with the floor, in which case I would expect a collapse...

Why are we questioning Patriot's interpretation in this way? I assumed that when he said "floor" that included support structures since there was a collapse. To think otherwise is, frankly, to insult Patriot's intelligence without cause.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by J4y

In real life a SWAT team wouldn't do anything like walk up to the terroist leader like that, but in a movie... yep, they'd get medals. Hey, not like they called in gunships to hose the place down and kill a 14 year old boy.

Let's leave aside the obvious stupidity of approaching the winery so openly. Trying to sneak in may have been pointless, given Mentalla's membership in Eurostar. And police commanders often have to negotiate face to face in hostage situations.

 

My point is not so much that teleporting out the floor caused deaths as that after rescuing their captured teammate, Team Vanguard made absolutely no attempt to go back in and apprehend Eurostar or to rescue any of the normals in the building. Unless that member was critically injured, and Patriot gave us no information to suggest that, the team failed to act in a heroic manner. Even if Captain America is hurt the Avengers don't hightail it back to Avengers Manor while Ultron 5 is still on the rampage in Manhattan. Patriot made it quite clear in another thread that Team Vanguard was more than a match for Eurostar in a straight up fight.

[J4y]

Why are we questioning Patriot's interpretation in this way? I assumed that when he said "floor" that included support structures since there was a collapse. To think otherwise is, frankly, to insult Patriot's intelligence without cause.

 

Even removing a lot of support structure wouldn't mean a catastrophic collapse of many buildings, and it really would have just teleported the floor (touch only) and not load bearing walls, and it's 5pts per 100kg so...

 

Regardless it wasn't an overtly hostile act, he wasn't TRYING to kill civilians (I'm assuming.) A superpowered fight with knockback blowing out load bearing walls is going to kill civilians to then, and generally I don't think people would consider holding the players accountable then. I don't think superheros are held to be accountable for incidental deaths they weren't trying to cause when legitimatly fighting crime.

 

As far as actual crimes, breaking and entering is also a crime, as is unlawful entry. Which one applies here depends on whether Team Vanguard actually had to break something.

 

I think most governments are pretty understanding with their laws for actions taken to save someone's life. If someone's life is in immediate danger (the kidnap victim) they're not going to charge you with break and enter, property destruction etc.

[Patriot]

A few team members have the KS: Law skill, so were able to hit the books to find out what the range of punishments would be, Ranging from mild(Basically becomeing Leichentsteins Heros for 30 years) to incarceration (stronghold type, in my game depending on the severity of the crime , being free to move about , total lock down, or hotsleep) or termination...yes this is a wide range, but if we wing up roleplaying it , the better the trial goes, the lighter the sentence he will get if any.

 

Out of game I posted a e-mail to Stellar, Suggesting that he think about writing a few new characters....His Aunt(The player whos character was kidnapped says he has no clue anything was done wrong....and still thinks Eurostar is setting him up)

 

I think I mentioned this before, Team Vanguard has Limited UN sanction (meaning they can get what they need much more often then someone with out it, but they still need to ask)

The kidnapped member was treated well...No harm , well fed etc.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by J4y

Why are we questioning Patriot's interpretation in this way? I assumed that when he said "floor" that included support structures since there was a collapse. To think otherwise is, frankly, to insult Patriot's intelligence without cause.

 

Even removing a lot of support structure wouldn't mean a catastrophic collapse of many buildings, and it really would have just teleported the floor (touch only) and not load bearing walls, and it's 5pts per 100kg so...

 

Regardless it wasn't an overtly hostile act, he wasn't TRYING to kill civilians (I'm assuming.) A superpowered fight with knockback blowing out load bearing walls is going to kill civilians to then, and generally I don't think people would consider holding the players accountable then. I don't think superheros are held to be accountable for incidental deaths they weren't trying to cause when legitimatly fighting crime.

 

As far as actual crimes, breaking and entering is also a crime, as is unlawful entry. Which one applies here depends on whether Team Vanguard actually had to break something.

 

I think most governments are pretty understanding with their laws for actions taken to save someone's life. If someone's life is in immediate danger (the kidnap victim) they're not going to charge you with break and enter, property destruction etc.

You're assuming a lot. Patriot, the guy who envisioned the winery in the first place, decided that whatever was teleported with Stellar was enough to cause a collapse. Patriot is the only one not assuming anything about the construction of the winery so it's his call to make to determine the likelihood of it happening.

 

A superhero wouldn't be held accountable for the death of an innocent in a superfight - assuming that the hero couldn't avoid the death of the innocent. Stellar chose a fairly destructive solution to his problem and is facing the repercussions of his action. I gather from Patriot that this was not the only option available to Stellar.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Patriot

I think I mentioned this before, Team Vanguard has Limited UN sanction (meaning they can get what they need much more often then someone with out it, but they still need to ask)

The kidnapped member was treated well...No harm , well fed etc.

Sounds to me like your feeling is still that Stellar is the one most wrong in this incident. You're the GM; that's ultimately your call in your campaign. Only you know all the circumstances of this incident. While in my own long running campaign I am the primary GM I share GM responsibilities with two other GMs, Mentor and Blackjack, and the GM running always has the final call in such situations. In this particular instance, I'd assume a several hundred year old stone building is not as structurally sound as a modern steel framed structure.

 

The fact the captured hero was well treated merely reinforces my general conclusion that Team Vanguard failed to act heroically in this entire incident. Stellar was just the most egregious violator of the superheroic code. Harming the civilians was accidental; failing to return to rescue them or apprehend Eurostar was deliberate and callous IMHO.

[gewing]

I was just thinking. The Israeli Gov't, iirc, and several others assumes hostages are dead and then if they get them back alive, GREAT.

 

Maybe I am to Grey scale in my gaming, but I tend to think any well known super terrorist who kidnaps one of my team-mates intends to kill them.

 

I don't know anything else about Stellar's powers, but I have to say, if it was me, I would have been more likely to blow Fiacho's head off, if I could.

 

It hasn't been made clear, though, how is the power used structured? Was the removal of the floor deliverate, or a side effect that he might have forgotten about?

 

 

Originally posted by Lupus

And that just ain't superheroes. Sorry. That's 'fascists in spandex.' Superheroes are borderline fascists as it is (how else would you describe people with great power who live by their own moral code and enforce it on others?), so I don't think it's a good idea to push this any further.

 

Others can feel free to interpret the genre in their own way, but in my games, superheroes are held to a higher moral standard (by themselves, by the community, by karma) than anyone else. And the genre supports this. Sometimes they may be faced withs ome very hard choices - but more of than not, when faced with two unpalatable options, they find the third choice. Yes, this means superheroes don't live in the real world. They're a fantasy, and they don't stand up to real-world scrutiny.

 

Note, I'm not counting Image-style character (Wildcats, et al) as superheroes for the purpose of the above discussion. That's because I don't see them as superheroes.Although in the real world, governments will do whatever they can to get a peaceful resolution. They certainly don't advocate shooting the hostages. Now, there may well be fewer terrorists in the world if we did that... but anyone who gave the go-ahead for that move wouldn't survive the next election.No-one's saying he tried to kill the civilians. He just didn't care about them. And yes, if someone teleported a floor out of a building, I'd expect a collapse. Ignorance can't be used here - the guy was warned, and did it anyway.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by gewing

I was just thinking. The Israeli Gov't, iirc, and several others assumes hostages are dead and then if they get them back alive, GREAT.

 

Maybe I am to Grey scale in my gaming, but I tend to think any well known super terrorist who kidnaps one of my team-mates intends to kill them.

 

I don't know anything else about Stellar's powers, but I have to say, if it was me, I would have been more likely to blow Fiacho's head off, if I could.

 

It hasn't been made clear, though, how is the power used structured? Was the removal of the floor deliverate, or a side effect that he might have forgotten about?

The problem is that you aren't looking at it from the perspective of being a superhumanly powerful and extraordinarily versatile fighter/rescuer. Responding as an Israeli special forces member doesn't really apply, especially if the GM is running a 4-Color game.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by J4y

As far as actual crimes, breaking and entering is also a crime, as is unlawful entry. Which one applies here depends on whether Team Vanguard actually had to break something.

 

I think most governments are pretty understanding with their laws for actions taken to save someone's life. If someone's life is in immediate danger (the kidnap victim) they're not going to charge you with break and enter, property destruction etc. [/b]

 

Which is what I said - had they gone on to do something heroic - ie actually apprehend Eurostar; evacuate the civilians, etc. - the world would probably have looked the other way (maybe someone would say something about the specific legalities, but he would be hushed pretty quickly).

 

They didn't, though. Instead, they trashed an historic landmark (by the way, architecture and efficiency of load bearing walls may not match what you know today when the property's construction dates back over 500 years), fled without checking to see if any injuries were caused and, all around, pretty much look like they have committed an act of terrorism against Leichenstein.

 

BTW, plocie officers will generally let a suspect flee rather than fire a shot if at risk of hitting civilians. Simialrly, high speed chases are not entered into routinely. The first role of the police is to protect. If supers aren't prepared to live up to that ideal, they will likely find themselves having trouble with legitimate law enforcement (and the press).

 

And where did it say their teammate's life was in imminent danger? By overtly invading the winery, Team Vanguard may well have palced their teammate's life in more danger than it was.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by J4y

Regardless it wasn't an overtly hostile act, he wasn't TRYING to kill civilians (I'm assuming.) A superpowered fight with knockback blowing out load bearing walls is going to kill civilians to then, and generally I don't think people would consider holding the players accountable then. I don't think superheros are held to be accountable for incidental deaths they weren't trying to cause when legitimatly fighting crime.

 

Negligent homocide and manslaughter are both criminal terms for causing death without intending to.

 

How accountable should the supers be? Let's look to the source. How often do we see a comic hero thinking he needs to move the battle away from innocent civilians, sometimes even jeopardizing his own position to do so? THAT is heroism (and Protective of Innocents) in action.

 

How "accidental" is it to blow off a 20d6 explosion inside a high risen and hope not to cause any structural damage and/or harm to the residents? Not very. Stellar's high volume teleport apparantly has a nasty little side effect which has been seen in play before - he chose to risk the lives of evryone in the winery rather than look for a solution that did not place innocent lives at risk.

[gewing]

like I said, maybe I'm more grey than 4-color.

 

This reminds me about one of my problems with "Kingdom Come" Superman iirc basically said- no superhuman has any need to kill, and if you do, you are a criminal and I will lock you up.

 

Problem is, He is capable of flying through an armed mob and disarming them ALL on his higher dex before any of them have any action.

 

Most are not. Kind of like if the US told Lichtenstein that they have to build an armored Corps to defend themselves. Only problem is, I don't recall, are there that many people in the country? and where would they get the money?

 

OK, that is a little silly, but just because the next best thing to a god can do something, doesn't mean everyone can.

 

Originally posted by Agent X

The problem is that you aren't looking at it from the perspective of being a superhumanly powerful and extraordinarily versatile fighter/rescuer. Responding as an Israeli special forces member doesn't really apply, especially if the GM is running a 4-Color game.

[gewing]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Which is what I said - had they gone on to do something heroic - ie actually apprehend Eurostar; evacuate the civilians, etc. - the world would probably have looked the other way (maybe someone would say something about the specific legalities, but he would be hushed pretty quickly).

 

snip---

And where did it say their teammate's life was in imminent danger? By overtly invading the winery, Team Vanguard may well have palced their teammate's life in more danger than it was.

 

So you feel they should have done what? Leave their team-mate in the hands of some of the most deadly terrorists in the world?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by gewing

like I said, maybe I'm more grey than 4-color.

 

This reminds me about one of my problems with "Kingdom Come" Superman iirc basically said- no superhuman has any need to kill, and if you do, you are a criminal and I will lock you up.

 

Problem is, He is capable of flying through an armed mob and disarming them ALL on his higher dex before any of them have any action.

 

Most are not. Kind of like if the US told Lichtenstein that they have to build an armored Corps to defend themselves. Only problem is, I don't recall, are there that many people in the country? and where would they get the money?

 

OK, that is a little silly, but just because the next best thing to a god can do something, doesn't mean everyone can.

Sounds to me like Stellar is heading toward Superman territory in terms of relative power in their campaign.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by gewing

So you feel they should have done what? Leave their team-mate in the hands of some of the most deadly terrorists in the world?

They should have followed the conventions of a 4-Color Comic and trusted in their GM to have contrived circumstances to make it possible for a positive result to happen.

 

In one of the campaigns I am playing in, our GM had put us up against something inspired by a demon in the show Angel (which I am totally ignorant of). This demoness beguiled anyone who looked at her. In two sessions she had managed to beguile half the team, and the only ones not beguiled by her had no idea how to deal with a dimension-conquering creature who we couldn't look at to fight. By trusting in our GM to be fair and trusting him not to put us in an unwinnable situation we struggled to find a solution and eventually reached one, although it was a close thing. Of course, that was what made victory sweet in this case. It was earned.

[J4y]

BTW, plocie officers will generally let a suspect flee rather than fire a shot if at risk of hitting civilians.

 

Eurostar isn't an innocent until proven guilty suspect, they're world-class threats that wouldn't even get a trial because the world knows they're guilty. Heck, in the case of Eurostar, while they flee the innocent civilians are mind controlled to pick up tree branchs and kill the officers!

 

Heck, while they're at it, they should investiage to see if Eurostar killed the civilians as a frameup.

[Agent X]

Patriot, this is my suggestion. Retcon. Fix the situation so that Stellar's teleportation didn't kill anyone.

 

However, have the character retired.

 

The "facing the consequences" angle just won't be fun to role play. You are better off handling that OOC and retiring the character with his good name intact. That will leave your friend feeling a little less embittered, although he shouldn't be embittered to begin with. It is a practical solution and it sounds a lot more palatable to your players who apparently like the player too much to hold him completely responsible for his playing style.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by J4y

BTW, plocie officers will generally let a suspect flee rather than fire a shot if at risk of hitting civilians.

 

Eurostar isn't an innocent until proven guilty suspect, they're world-class threats that wouldn't even get a trial because the world knows they're guilty. Heck, in the case of Eurostar, while they flee the innocent civilians are mind controlled to pick up tree branchs and kill the officers!

 

Heck, while they're at it, they should investiage to see if Eurostar killed the civilians as a frameup.

What's your point?

[Patriot]

For your veiwing enjoyment/disgust

 

I give you Stellar!

[gewing]

any chance for a version the rest of us can read?