A bad Situation(Kind of Long post/rant)

[Patriot]

Recently In my Champions Game a team member (A Mentalist named Panther)was kidnapped by Eurostar she was easily overpowered by them and Team Vanguard had to find her. Using Mentalla to block her mental signature the team couldn't pinpoint her location exactly but they did narrow it down to about a 2 hundred mile area. After ,for lack of a better word ,assessing the situation they went in. They Narrowed the search down To a Winery In Liechenstein,before they went in It was described as a beautiful building nearly a castle from the Mid 1400s.

They entered through the kitchen, where they found a cook and a chef, They asked to be taken to whomever was in charge...They were taken to Fiacho, who then Invited the team to dinner, He had something important he wanted to discuss with then about the United Nations...The Team Leader Violently opposed the idea, And Fiacho Had enough of him. Fiacho then grabed the innocent( a cook) and threatened to Kill him if the team didnt leave....The Team Leader Stellar Replies ..."SO, he isnt innocent he works for you "...(keep in mind he is a cook)(needless to say I was enraged out of game about this) Stellar then proceeds to teleport himself, Team Vanguard, and the floor of the building out...about 100 miles away...the team returned home with its recovered member. This action Caused the collaspe of the building , kiling 6 normals, and injuring the 2 owners of the winery.

The Next Morning

A news report came across stating that The Country of Leichenstein had contacted the United Nations, And Was pushing for a resolution to Dis-band Team Vanguard due to the destruction of a national treasure (the winery) and that they were going to got to the International court and have Stellar tryed for Terrorism, and The destruction of a historical and National Treasure. At this point Due to the current outlook Of the USA by the UN , The Resolution has been ratified by 67 countries.

Stellar will be served A summons To appear in an International court next game. If he doesnt appear , They will rule against him , and he will be ruled a international fugitive, terrorist and criminal

Last night We had a pick up game , In which UNTIL contacted certain members of Team Vanguard, basically to set up a taskforce to be ready to apprehend Stellar when he doesnt show up for court, which is expected.

 

 

Any Input? What would you do different? Would you run this?

[Hugh Neilson]

Maaaannn!

 

You don't mention personality so I don't know whether this is in character for Stellar. All that would do for me is make me wonder why he's leader and consider docking xp if it isn't, though.

 

Your premise seems reasonable. How much political clout does Eurostar have? Can they make this seem worse than it is (hard though that seems)? How much of a rep does Team Vanguard have? Might there be some inclination to believe better of them?

 

Frankly, the whose scenario sounds like one I'd run with my group being framed for having committed such an action. The difference is that your Dark Champion appears to have actually done it.

 

I wonder whether contacting other members of the team is the right approach. Does the world media know Stellar acted alone, or would the accusation be levied at the team as a whole (and what were they doing while all this was going on anyway)? Again, maybe Eurostar has the pull to try and get the whole team dragged down, in which case the UN might feel more comfortable sending some other supers in (or a couple hundred UNTIL agents, I suppose).

 

These trials could drag on too, as they try to put together an unbiased tribunal...all the while, the press can have a field day and the team's rep can get trashed.

 

Patriot, I suspect you want someone to say "No, you're overreacting", but it sounds tom me like Stellar at least, and maybe Vanguiard as a whole, crossed a serious line. I'd say your scenario sounds pkausible, reasonable and well-earned. I'd be interested in hearing how it goes down.

[tesuji]

Ok, so when you started this run (as well as in previous encounters where the team went cross-country border hopping) did all the realities of international travel come into play? Did they need passports, any unusual requirements for known supers entering the country and so on?

 

or do intl politics only rear their head when they divert from your script?

 

The post reads like the player playing Stellar ticked you off and now ther world in game is going to get even for you.

 

When is the last time you say that small a country and a lethality involving the collapse of a winery and six civilians killed spur the Un to make that RAPID and that DECISIVE a response?

 

t sounds like kne jerk "get back at you" towards stellar.

 

and this, i will note, is from just hearing **your** side of the events.

 

****************

 

Would i run this?

 

Absolutely... if it were a part of a story and if it made sense and was intended to be fun for ALL involved, even that low down dirty scoubdrel barely worth the skin it took to wrap his mostly water carcass in we call the PLAYER who runs Stellar. (after all, it is the player you are irked with, right?)

 

If this is part of a clever and intricate plot where the PCs will become the focus of an intl conspiracy where they may have to go "on the run" for a while and root out who has influenced the Un and set them up and eventually uncover the plot, stop the bad guys and recover their good name... then its a master stroke, a comic classic and you are to be applauded.

 

If its a knee jerk slap back at the player who ticked you off, and if you expect the outcome to be his character being ousted from the team or in dutch while the rest of the team goes on without him, or even if you haven't thought this further than an assumption of immediate intl horror and reaction on this large a scale to the destruction of a winery and loss of six (has the team given its side at all? Didi the Un ask them to give statements or did they just take the bruised winery owner's testimony as gospel and above reporach even though he harbored terrorists? Did anyone say "uhh, while we get ready to crucify these HEROES shouldn't we ask what the terrorist super team was doing there?" once?) to "show him"... then i would not run it, not at all.

 

ymmv

[lemming]

Hmm. While I would of had the collapse happen, I think you should of had a few of the normals live. Better to have live credible witnesses.

I might of even had a Supervillian get killed. Make up a throw away provisional member of Eurostar.

 

Does sound like there was a bit of a knee jerk response to have this all happen. There would have to be some investigation into the winery collapse to actually figure out the who & why. So some time should pass.

 

Even though Stellar caused the collapse, Eurostar would have the heat turned up for them as well. Just because the heroes are easy to find, shouldn't mean that they'll be hunted more so.

[tiger]

Does sound like there was a bit of a knee jerk response to have this all happen. There would have to be some investigation into the winery collapse to actually figure out the who & why. So some time should pass.

 

Sounds very comic book to me. If there were no sign of Eurostar the police wouldn't know they were involved. Then a tip to the police could lead to the "terrorist" Vanguard.

 

The other problems that would be based on their Disads. If any of them had code vs killing there would be a bit of trouble in the group. Even if they don't the thought of a hero killing innocents, those commiting no crimes, or the willful destruction of property shouldn't be allowed.

 

AS a GM I would have done something similiar

[Zed-F]

I agree, a major international incident might start a-brewing, but it will not come to a boil quite that quickly. Things might heat up in Leichenstein that fast, and the team could become persona non-grata there until an investigation could be performed into the matter, but the rest of the world would NOT be that quick to come to a decision on the matter, especially not with known involvement by a major terrorist group. Since they *are* terrorists, there would be quite a lot of reason for people to suspect that Eurostar might have engineered the whole thing (even if they didn't), especially by common people on the street. If the governments tried to railroad Vanguard without following due process, there would likely be a massive public outcry.

 

Definitely start an inquiry, and let the tension surrounding that build up for a few sessions. Give Stellar a chance to realize what he's done and to atone in a properly heroic manner before taking the gloves off.

[Starlord]

Random thoughts:

 

-Stellar should be culpable to SOME extent for his actions.

 

-Eurostar is supposedly the deadliest European terrorist group there is...you can't negotiate with terrorists of this power.

 

-Again, Eurostar was involved! I think UN officials need to take into account that extreme measures are needed when dealing with them. The fact that Eurostar chose that castle as a hideout, almost assured its destruction in the end anyway.

[Trebuchet]

Sounds to me like Vanguard's leader isn't much of a hero. Where's his "Protects Innocents"? Even if the threatened cook was Fiacho's private chef (and it sounds to me more as if he was just a poor employee of a restaurant Eurostar was at), you don't go around killing the help. Does the Fantastic Four waste Doctor Doom's maid when they attack his castle? If the cook had attacked Vanguard that might have been a different story (And probably a cook wouldn't be any realistic threat to a superhero; haven't they ever heard of "appropriate level of force"?), but this was pure murder IMHO. Their top priority should have been to get the all normals out; after that they can rescue their teammate and stomp Eurostar.

 

I think quick action by the UN Security Council would be totally appropriate; the UN would have to be quicker in a world of superhumans. Arresting Team Vanguard for trial would be an obvious assignment for UNTIL, quite possibly with superheroic backup. And if any of Team Vanguard is a "law and order" type, he would probably turn himself in and even help capture his fellows.

 

I remember you posting about your group's upcoming clash with Eurostar in my "Woo Hoo! We Whipped Eurostar!" thread a few weeks back. During that adventure our team MidGuard risked their own lives to rescue three supervillains whom they'd defeated on a sunken nuclear sub prior to their encounter with Eurostar back on the surface. What's Team Vanguard's headline? "Woo Hoo! We Killed Eurostar's Chef!"

 

My own thought: If this is typical behavior for this group, this Team Vanguard campaign has run it's course; end it with a bang (Nuclear weapons might work) and move on. Even if you don't, this incident should cause a lot of soul searching amongst the members of Team Vanguard.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starlord

-Stellar should be culpable to SOME extent for his actions.

 

-Eurostar is supposedly the deadliest European terrorist group there is...you can't negotiate with terrorists of this power.

 

-Again, Eurostar was involved! I think UN officials need to take into account that extreme measures are needed when dealing with them. The fact that Eurostar chose that castle as a hideout, almost assured its destruction in the end anyway.

I have to agree with Starlord here. Eurostar is probably one of the 3 biggest threats to UNTIL (or any international peace keeping force). The UN is not going to be in a big hurry to destroy a superhero team over the destruction of a winery, even if it is a historical landmark of sorts. In the comics historical landmarks get broken or destroyed all the time. That is how you get visuals of Captain America repairing the Liberty Bell. Now the hero should be forced to make restitution for this destruction but I think you too the whole scenario just a little to far because of your own anger.

 

And as far as protecting innocents, well each hero is different. Everyone cannot have the same high ideals. I am sure Wolverine would have hacked right through the chef if he knew it was his only way to defeat his foe. We live in the Iron Age of comics so we must expect our players to reflect this from time to time.

[Agent X]

Aaaaah! End the game. End the game.

Or Retcon and beat the player over the head with a metaphorical club.

[Starlord]

How about this:

 

-Mentalla had taken over Stellar's mind

 

-Some new villain or creature with less than heroic tendencies has taken over Stellar's body (or replaced him) for the last few weeks.

 

Perhaps use these to explain his actions.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Starlord

How about this:

-Mentalla had taken over Stellar's mind

-Some new villain or creature with less than heroic tendencies has taken over Stellar's body (or replaced him) for the last few weeks.

Perhaps use these to explain his actions.

 

Good excuses if the player AND the GM agree to retcon it, but the fact is that the player made his own decisions here.

 

If the player now believes Stellar should not have taken this action and this was poor role playing on his part, I'd be inclined to give him an "out". But not a free one.

 

For the period of possession/replacement, Stellar could not have earned any xp, justifying a penalty there in game terms.

 

And none of this should solve the RP problem - the winery remains destroyed, 6 people remain dead and, to the world at large, Stellar remains responsible.

 

As for several other comments on this thread:

 

- I agree with the timing issue. It should take some time for this to come to trial. However, putting Stellar in custody up front makes sense, assuming there's evidence to support it. As well, Patriot's rationale is quite well set out, especially given current world events. Add in the dynamics of a world full of supers, and some added speed is not out of the question.

 

- Yes, Eurostar are dangerous. Would the world powers have sanctioned an air strike on the winery to eliminate them? That would have had basically the same effects as Team Vanguard's actions. Most of the "real world" does not accept that the ends justify any means - bombing civilians to get at Eurostar is likely to stir up similar feelings, and this is pretty similar.

 

- In a four color world of Supers, people have this inset belief the heroes will protect them. If that's the case in Patriot's campaign, those beliefs could easily be shaken to the core by what Stellar has done, provoking an extreme reaction. And how much can that be exacerbated by judicious influence by Eurostar (bribed, threatened or mind controlled politicos can work wonders to accelerate things, especially in comic book reality).

 

There are a few facts missing here, however.

 

- What did Team Vanguard do after destroying the winery? Did they stick around and try to rectify the situation to the extent possible? Did they even TRY to rescue survivors? It won't look good if it comes out 3 of those normals died in the wreckage hours after the collapse, and hours after Vanguard just took off, will it?

 

- If Vanguard just took off, then it's no wonder if their side of the story hasn't been told. Does the media, and world leadership, generally wait until all the facts are out before acting?

 

- Yes, Eurostar are partially culpable. That doesn't change the fact that Vanguard has some responsibilities. When a police officer fires his weapon, the reasons for that discharge are reviewed. Every time. High speed chases are also subject to considerable scrutiny. And police officers have legal sanction - does Team Vanguard have any sanction beyond "we're fighting the good fight"?

 

- What is the tone of the campaign? As some have noted, this may be acceptable in a grey "iron age" campaign. From Patriot's comments (and outrage), however, I get the sense this is four colour, not a shades of grey campaign.

 

Patriot, how does the US view the situation? It may be interesting to see a battle between UNTIL and hired supers on one side, and Team Vanguard and Primus on the other. This would be a very tense political situation, which may be why the UN is asking members of Team Vanguard itself to bring Stellar in, rather than assempling, say, a European team to enter the US and deport Stellar.

[Trebuchet]

Good points, Hugh. I'd like to throw another into the ring.

 

Eurostar is an extremely vicious and dangerous villain team, that pretty much goes without saying. People's lives are in serious jeopardy whenever Eurostar is around. That being the case, I think it would be more incumbent upon the heroes to protect innocent lives, not less. If Stellar had the capability of selectively teleporting Team Vanguard and the floor away, he certainly could have taken the innocents with him. Dropping a building on Eurostar is legit. Dropping a building on Eurostar while there are innocents inside is not.

 

Superheroes trying to stop the likes of Eurostar have to be certain they don't emulate Eurostar's ruthless methods or they're just as bad as Eurostar. Being wrapped in the red, white, and blue doesn't excuse callously killing civilians. Cops don't go in indiscriminately shooting civilians to rescue one of their own being held hostage. Should superheroes be held to a lesser standard? I think not.

[Patriot]

Thank you for your input and your time

 

Too all who replied...Thank you;)

 

 

There are 2 surviving Innocents, the actual owners of the winery.

 

The Only way Stellar tweaked me off, was during the actual encounter...While it is true he only has: 0 Points Reluctant to kill , he does have 20 point protective of innocents ,Myself and every other player thought he choose poorly.

 

The issue of contacting other team members was mentioned, the few that were contacted had strong UNTIL or UN connections .

 

The action was all Stellar, the rest of the team was holding there action.

 

The team took off immediatly after the inncident, they teleported away with the floor, so they really had no idea till they seen the news report...One additional bit of info, this has happened to him before...teleporting the floor out wiht loss of property and life.

 

As of this point the US has not commented on the situation.

 

Eurostar is a powerful Terrorist orginization in my game, the only safe haven they have is in Leichenstein and they have a strong contact with the PM of that country.

 

How do you replace a priceless historical artifact , with out some cheezy major transform power?

[austenandrews]

I wouldn't play with that guy anymore.

 

-AA

[Trebuchet]

Patriot, the info that Eurostar has contacts within the government of Leichenstein makes it likely Eurostar will milk this for everything it's worth. They can say "See, we asked for a peaceful parlay and Team Vanguard destroyed the historic building we were in and killed six innocent people." The press will have a field day with this incident; there's nothing they like better than finding out famous people have feet of clay. Governmental agencies will hesitate to cooperate and maybe even actively impede Team Vanguard, especially in Europe. Contacts may refuse to help.

 

At the very least I'd make Team Vanguard pay heavily for this incident for at least a year; starting with the removal of Stellar as team leader if not his outright expulsion.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Thank you for your input and your time

 

Originally posted by Patriot

Too all who replied...Thank you;)

 

There are 2 surviving Innocents, the actual owners of the winery.

 

So there are witnesses.

 

Originally posted by Patriot

The Only way Stellar tweaked me off, was during the actual encounter...While it is true he only has: 0 Points Reluctant to kill , he does have 20 point protective of innocents ,Myself and every other player thought he choose poorly.

 

The action was all Stellar, the rest of the team was holding there action.

 

How did the other players eact after the incident? Do they simply accept "Stellar has Player Character tattooed on his forehead", or have they made their own opinions about his actions known? I'm thinking of the Avengers' 'court martial' of Warbird, and similar reviews of team member actions in the past here.

 

Originally posted by Patriot

The team took off immediatly after the inncident, they teleported away with the floor, so they really had no idea till they seen the news report...One additional bit of info, this has happened to him before...teleporting the floor out wiht loss of property and life.

 

Have the other players had the opportunity to react to the reports? I'd also be curious about their response to this prior incident. Was it just swept under the carpet and ignored? If so, that did create a precedent that Stellar can get away with this kind of action. And, if the other PC's just shook their heads and walked away, do they also share some guilt? If they didn't deal with this before, then they are responsibile for Stellar still being on the team at all, which put him in a position to do the same thing again.

 

Originally posted by Patriot

As of this point the US has not commented on the situation.

 

Eurostar is a powerful Terrorist orginization in my game, the only safe haven they have is in Leichenstein and they have a strong contact with the PM of that country.

 

Is that contact known to the outside world? If so, this may water down Leichenstein's claims. If not, Eurostar is certainly in a position to have the politico's add some more pressure, which may mean more trouble for Team Vanguard unless they can bring some political clout to bear in their favour (contacts, for example).

 

Originally posted by Patriot

How do you replace a priceless historical artifact , with out some cheezy major transform power?

 

Worse, how do you replace loss of life? Stellar caused six deaths. He should, in some way, be culpable for that. At a minimum, it seems likely he's guilty of manslaughter. At the extreme, he has committed an act of war on Leichenstein's soil. Does the US want to back him up? NOTE: Act of War is an extreme I would expect only if Leichenstein is prepared to make this look as bad as possible for Vanguard to Eurostar's benefit.

[Zed-F]

Sounds like Stellar's getting a bit unbalanced. I would be thinking that any close contacts of the rest of the team would be getting advice from their friends/lawyers right now to distance themselves and the team as a whole from him. Cameraderie only goes so far; in a moral person it may not cross certain ethical boundaries. Of course, sometimes it does cross those boundaries, but that's a conscious choice the other players should be allowed to make.

 

There should certainly be questions as to why Stellar is still the team leader if he's pulled this stunt before, but the fact of the matter is that if he's on the team he has the ability to do this and no-one could stop him. If he's done it before, I would assume that if he's still team lead he just got chewed out by his superiors and given a second chance. If so, he's blown it, and should immediately be put under house arrest (or at least probation) and ultiumately face justice, but the remaining team members appear not to have had any say in the matter. I wouldn't imagine the heat would fall on them too quickly unless they publicly sided with Stellar. That doesn't mean, however, that they won't be paid close attention to over the next several months until the authorities are satisfied with their behaviour sans Stellar.

 

Note, that it's possible to have a story arc where Stellar goes rogue and turns into a vigilante. He may not stick around to face the music, and the PCs might encounter him later. This may be a case where as GM you can say that Stellar has just become an NPC and ask the player to make up a new character. I would only explore this option if Stellar seems dangerously unrepentant, however.

[Wormhole]

For a four-color game world, I would call that one hell of a mess. You need to sit that player down and have a serious chat with him.

[Grailknight]

Talk about shades of grey...

 

First off, Stellar was wrong. I'd have been willing to excuse this action if it was the first time but it isn't. Have UNTIL hold the hearing and charge him with reckless endangerment or depraved indifference as you like but...

 

Remember who is bringing these charges and the circumstances of the incident. It's not clear in your description if the dead and injured were Eurostar operatives, hostages or just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Did they ask for help when the heroes arrived or defer to Fiacho as if they knew him well? It makes a difference in whether he saw them as innocents or undercover agents.

 

Where was the teammate taken hostage during all this? The entire mood of the scenario hinges on whether Panther is sitting at the table freely on bound and trussed with a weapon to his/her head. I could almost ( not quite, but almost excuse) Stellar if he thought that this was the only way to save a teammate.He should have only teleported the team a short distance freed Panther and then come back to fight Eurostar or perform rescues as necessary.

 

Liechtenstein is going to be on trial right alongside Stellar as it comes out that they have been harboring the most feared and dangerous terrorists in Europe. If I was Stellar's defense counsel, I'd make sure the background leading up to this incident was played up. "International terrorists claim heroes used excessive force in hostage rescue" is not a headline that will get him convicted, especially if links between that govt and Eurostarcome to light.

 

On the Team Vanguard front, Stellar's attitude toward killing makes it unlikely that he is team leader material. At a minimum he should be a provisionary member who requires supervision from a teammate on all field missions. I'd throw his character off the team and make him an outlaw hero. I'd also expect his teammates to bring him in to face trial but I wouldn't pressure mercilessly on that point. Remember they were on a rescue mission.

 

What you do with Stellar's player depends on what happens in your next couple of sessions. I'd have start a new character and make sure I went over how I wanted him to play his psych lims. If he had a problem with this or you don't think its worth the trouble get rid of him if the rest of your players concur.

[tesuji]

Re: Thank you for your input and your time

 

Originally posted by Patriot

The Only way Stellar tweaked me off, was during the actual encounter...While it is true he only has: 0 Points Reluctant to kill , he does have 20 point protective of innocents ,Myself and every other player thought he choose poorly.

 

This lim would have required an EGO roll to go against the protective of innocents, thats what the lim does. Did you require this limitation roll to be made? if not, why not? If yes and he made the roll, then you should not be upset... the lim came out and he made the required rolls.

 

Of course, you and the player may need to work out what innocent means, as it sounds like his view is rather loose if anyone such as the cook is so easily dismissed. (Should lower the frequency value perhaps.)

[zornwil]

I think the player issue is as important as the PC issue. Based on what you say, everyone except maybe (?) the player is aware this action was out of bounds, genre-wise but more importantly campaign-wise.

 

What was the player's motivation? Does he think he made a mistake? Is he saying "Oh, man, Stellar never would have done that! I really screwed up!" If so, let him retcon a bit, not enough to destroy/derail the campaign, but along the lines many have mentioned here (he was really under mind control, a duplicate sneaked in, whatever).

 

If the player is firmly convinced Stellar would do this AND is mature enough to take the heat, understanding the campaign world isn't going to just go along, then cool, your findings are okay assuming they're consistent with your campaign to date - you need only examine them thoroughly to see that they are consistent. However, you better talk with the player and see if they really understand it. Otherwise you may be heading down a road which will poison relations and therefore the game. Since this will fundamentally change the relationship the PC will have with the others (especially given you've stated his teammates are appalled), he should be prepared to make a new character.

 

If the player is immature and won't deal with it, you have to make a metagame friendship and other players' perceptions call on it.

[William Bushway]

I imagine that in a similar situation, a soldier or police officer who negligently killed 4 non-combatants in the course of rescuing a comrade would be immediately suspended pending investigation of the incident. Best-case scenario is desk-duty until a full psych evaluation and a refresher course on tactical hostage rescue has been completed. Worst case is being stripped of rank and then being tried for murder.

[death tribble]

The main European countries would not be happy with this and may dispatch their own representatives to bring the alleged felon to trial. Liechenstein is small but Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Portugal to name but a few are not going to let this sort of thing pass without comment.

After all if they let this pass what is to stop someone else doing the same in their countries or worse ?

 

Interpol may impose sanctions on the team in Europe but their reach is world wide. That could affect things in America as the FBI and Interpol regularly share info.

 

Would I run this ? yes. Had the same thing happen when the Protectors took out the Switzerland hideway of the evil L Ron Chubbard. The player whined when the Swiss police turned up and tried to arrest him (an archer) as the team had saved the world many times. As they fled without facing the police relations between Britain and Switzerland became strained and the team were banned from operating in their borders.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Re: Thank you for your input and your time

 

Originally posted by tesuji

This lim would have required an EGO roll to go against the protective of innocents, thats what the lim does. Did you require this limitation roll to be made? if not, why not? If yes and he made the roll, then you should not be upset... the lim came out and he made the required rolls.

 

I don't believe I've ever required an ego roll (or seen one required) in any of my games. Players are expected to play their character's limitations as if they mean something. I have seen the occasional "major moral dilemma" where the player has decided the character can only take Action X with an ego roll, but that's been few and far between.

 

Frankly, if the only impact of the limitation was to require ego rolls a few times per game, I'd make them buy it off. Obviously, the character is trying to get over it or he wouldn't try to act against the limitation so frequently.

 

Should I ever find a game where an ego roll is all it takes, I'll have to consider playing a 33 Ego mentalist (and maybe take some levels with "all Ego related rolls").