Question for TheEmerged

[Demonsong]

I was just reading the house rule thread and I want to ask about the following and didn’t want to just tack my question on to the tread 3 pages later.

 

TheEmerger wrote:

“After that, my biggest change would be to adjust the base value formulas for most of the Figured Attributes -- specifically to reduce the influence of STR and CON on them. Concurrent with this, I would make Mental Defense a figured attribute instead of a power.â€

 

This is a really intrusting statement, and I have thought about it before (the refiguring of the attribute part). Anyway what I would like to hear your reasoning on this and how you would change it.

 

The second part about Mental Defense becoming a figured characteristic is also of some interest to me because I find mental powers of any kind to be overly effective in fantasy campaigns. And assume that this would carry over in to any campaign with lower point’s values.

 

Any way I would just like to hear your thoughts.

 

Thanks

[TheEmerged]

I'll start with the easy one -- MD as a figured attribute. It was actually the local DnD DM who suggested this when he tried running a Fantasy HERO campaign. His argument -- still a key one in my opinion -- is that characters already have MD as a figured attribute but can't use it until they buy it as a power.

 

We liked it not only for thematic reasons (see below) but found that in practice it helped to counterbalance the mental powers somewhat.

 

Thematically however I've never liked the idea that this was a power. It seems to me this would be something everyone would have, and anyone that worked at it could cultivate. Even in superhero campaigns -- perhaps especially in superhero campaigns -- we found it allowed us to keep things "real" without having to introduce blackbox technology to the campaign.

 

That last sentence isn't easy to express quickly, so I'll give an example. One of the problems you run into with mental powers in a "real" world is how people in sensitive positions (like intelligence officers, CIA agents, and politicians) protect themselves. In the GURPS ISA world for example this is handled by introducing a crystal that gives anyone wearing one a mental shield. We didn't like this option to say the least. We found it easier to say it was possible to train yourself to resist than to introduce a miraculous technology to the campaign.

 

With regards to characteristic maxima, we set the initial maxima to 8 -- same as PD & ED. However, like Ego and Int it goes *up* with age; 10 at "40+" and 12 at "60+".

 

When "The Ultimate Mentalist" added the option of cumulative mental powers, I quickly figured out this option allowed many of the mental powers to function more closely to the way they're portrayed in fiction. It didn't take me much longer to discover that cumulative mental powers could get out of hand quickly. If everyone has a certain amoung of MD, though, it serves as a wonderful check on this function.

 

As such, having MD as a figured attribute allows me to build mental powers (especially for low-point campaigns and/or campaigns where everyone has characteristic maxima) that work the way I wanted without getting unbalanced.

 

========================================================

 

On the subject of reducing the importance of STR and CON on figured attributes -- it's a little more crunchy. And I'll say up front: how much of a problem you think this is tends to be highly related to how often you run HERO in campaigns where all characters have Normal Characteristic Maxima by default (AKA "NCM-default campaigns"). If you have only run a few you won't think it's a problem -- if you run them a lot, you probably do.

 

Let's get the crunchy part out of the way.

 

For every 10 points of Str you pay for, you receive 2 points of PD, 2 pips of REC (worth 4 points) and 5 points of Stun -- for 11 points. This *in addition* to x4 the lifting capacity and +2d6 of damage.

 

For every 10 pips of Con you pay for (at the cost of 20 points), you receive 2 points of ED, 2 pips of REC (worth 4 points), 5 points of Stun, and 20 pips of END (worth 10 points) -- for 21 points. This *in addition* to increasing the difficulty of Con-stunning you and increasing your CON- roll (a common one).

 

Sound out-of-whack? Now compare that to what 10 points of PRE & INT will get you -- or BODY and EGO, to a lesser extent.

 

Which brings us to the kicker -- remember that because of the way HERO rounds you can actually get those 11/21 points worth of benefit for 8/16 points of actual expenditure.

 

While HERO is an excellent system -- the best out there by far in my opinion -- it is nonetheless a valid criticism that in NCM-default campaigns characters tend to look too similar in terms of the character sheets. Now it's my opinion that part of the problem is that most NCM-default campaigns tend to have a narrow focus that is somewhat out of flavor with HERO's greatest strength (consistency across genres). But the lack of gradiance at the NCM-levels figures into the problem as well.

 

What's the solution? I'd like to say I have a 100% satisfactory answer, but to be honest 80% is closer to the truth.

 

The imbalance with Str is more serious than the one with Con, both mathematically (you get twice as many "bonus points") and thematically (Con doesn't give you quite as much on its own as Str does). So I'll be concentrating on it for the rest of this discussion.

 

I tried and quickly grew to dislike the idea of increasing the cost of Str to 2. I even tried increasing it to 1.5 (3 points buying 2 pips of Str) and didn't like the result. It simply felt wrong for Str to cost more than Energy Blast. That's when it occured to me that the cost of Str is fine -- the problem is that it has far too much influence on the figured attributes.

 

The most obvious parts to me are its influence on Rec and Stun. To me, these attributes are almost as mental as they are physical. Replace Str with Ego for those equations, and suddenly Str is giving about what it should give.

 

Along the same line, I felt the same way about Con's influence on END. Mathematically speaking it is the End influence (literally half the points you put into Con come out in End) that brings it out of balance -- and again, in my opinion End is almost as mental as physical. The obvious solution was to make End's formula to be Con+Ego instead of Con times 2.

 

Of course, it's immediately obvious that Ego is now imbalanced -- 10 pips (20 points) of Ego now giving you 2 points of MD, 2 pips (4 points) of Rec, 5 points of Stun, and 5 points of End for 16 points -- 16 points beside the +2 to Ego rolls and at least +3 ECV.

 

Similarly, you can make Str worth exactly what it costs if you make PD a function of Body (Body/5). Does that make Body too cost-efficient now (you spend 10 points to get 6 points of figured attributes)? I don't think so, but you could certainly make that argument.

 

Recently, one of the other members of the gaming group suggested a solution to my Ego problem (pun intended) -- one I'm not 100% sure I like it but I have to admit it might work. Change SPD's formula -- currently 1+(Dex/10) to (Ego+Dex)/10 -- and increase Ego's cost to 3 points per pip like Dexterity. That would make the CV attributes cost the same. We're talking about trying it when we start a Fantasy HERO campaign.

 

Additionally, we're considering giving characters a "base Flash Defense" of INT/5 to reflect the ability to do things like cover your ears, avert your eyes, hold your nose, etc.

 

This would make my current, and subject to change suggestions for the new formulas as...

 

• EGO = 3 points per pip
  
• PD = Body/5
  
• ED = Con/5
  
• MD = Ego/5
  
• FD = Int/5
  
• REC = (Con/5)+(Ego/5)
  
• SPD = (Ego+Dex)/10
  
• END = (Con+Ego)
  
• STUN = Body + (Con/2) + (Ego/2)
  

 

Once again -- I'm not 100% satisfied with this (I'd like for Power Defense to be figured as well but can't really justify attaching it to PRE) and there are a couple of those I haven't actually tested yet -- but it's the current version of something I personally couldn't have put my name on Fifth Edition were I in Steve Long's shoes.

 

EDITTED TO ADD: For the record, Steve Long and I have discussed this on the board before. I know the reasons they weren't changed (concerns about everyone having to redo every character sheets, a strict "thou shalt not" rule during the early stages of the effort, and Steve's belief they aren't really a problem). I disagree with his belief and understand the other issues -- I just wouldn't have been able to put my name at the bottom of Fifth Edition without addressing them.

 

/humor on

Then again I didn't actually have the decision to make so I can afford to act on principle.

/humor off

 

Even with the disagreement, I respect and appreciate the work that went into 5th -- I feel that even with the other issues I have it's a major & commendable improvement.

[JmOz]

While an interesting idea on the characteristics (BTW I do the MD as well as a FC) I do not see the problem, but I play mostly Champions.

 

IN CHAMPIONS the "bonus" points you get for high stats is off set by the fact that most character types will either bennefit from

 

A) A framework,

High Stats (Bricks and there ilk)

C) Martial Arts

D) some lesser combination of the three

 

Simply put with out the extra points coming from the stats a Basic Brick will not be able to compete with the others

[Farkling]

And if I may chime in on the CHAMPIONS level reference...

 

My bricks rarely have purchased reduced END on STR...the HYBRIDs (Brick/MA, Brick/Skills, Brick/EP) types usually purchase REduced END on STR, or on the Multipower suite (EP Hybrid).

 

The Mentalist bought everything COMBAT RELATED to 1/2 or 0 END. Everything else he tracks when necessary. Actually, it only applies for long term effects in most cases.

 

The Multipower types are hybrid enough to use the high stats to drive END/STUN totals.

 

The straight brick has END pouring out of her ears. 50 CON, 100 END, 20 REC, 73 STUN. 100 END for a character who is ONLY using 60 STR and Leaping everywhere in combet just doesn't run out very quickly. She commonly Pushes her punches...and grins at the Hybrid Bricks...whom she outguns. One character can match her violence with Martial Arts, but not her sheer casual destruction of inanimate objects. Martial Arts has no casual STR effect, you know? She's learning to play that up.

 

The full bore EP's in the game...one went with charges...one went with the appropriately huge END battery.

 

It all plays nicely in balance AT THE SUPERS LEVEL.

Perhaps that is Steve's baseline.

 

_____________________________________________

 

NCM max games...truthfully, most the PC's in the Superspies games are not using hand to hand combat...so I can't begin to compare. One DID pony up the points to push his SPD to 5 in an NCM game. He felt it was worth it...and proved it on a higher powered Ninja in close combat.

 

MY design specs for Fantasy Hero were::

 

NCM.

1 END / 10 Points of STR used

Spellcasters may buy END batteries for spells

Spells may buy the 1/4 limit for personal or battery.

AP Limit on Spells :: 90 (subject to GM approval, you may go over)

Spells may not have the 0 END advantage unless defensive.

 

I didn't have a lot of "identical" characteristics showing up for the game.

I also didn't put a restriction on purchases...one player showed with a fighter who had Ogre blood, STR 30, CON 24...and had a distinct edge in combat with the town guards when they got arrested...a pick up and throw them edge.

 

One of the others started with a family hierloom, he had a flaming sword (HKA+0 END RKA, No Range) and the gauntlets to allow him to wield it (a la Thor), Granting +10 STR (no figured) and +3rED.

His CON was only 12 I think. It was a very small number...less than the thief...

 

Maybe it was my players enforcing variety? I dunno. One Spellcaster bought extra EGO over the NCM, on bought his INT up to 30. The thief purchased skill levels. I haven't had the "same characteristics" problem...but I run more eChampions than NCM games.

[Farkling]

I AM intrigued with the SPD and CV approach utilizing DEX AND EGO...

 

but it would need extra policing...CV maxes would all shift suddenly.

[Demonsong]

Some good ideas, well thought out. The main problem I would have is the raising of EGO to 3 points per pip. I realize that you are getting more out of EGO now but.... Well it is some thing to think about.

 

Any way thanks for you input.

[TheEmerged]

Just for clarification -- I'm not saying EGO should figure into OCV and DCV. EGO already figures into ECV.

[Stone]

I agree w/you on MD being a figured stat and with the cost for EGO being raised to 3 pts. I disagree on using BODY to determine PD. As for making Flash Defense a figured defense, thats a tricky situation. I understand your approach to the problem, but the PC's have to be aware of the potential flash before they can try to defend themselves from it. I will usually give my playes a few (1-3) free for actions they take (cover eyes or ears. etc...) once they realize a flash is about to happen.