What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

[SteveZilla]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

There's this tidbit too: 6e1, page 139, column 2, "Positively Adjusting Power Frameworks."

 

In summary, you must adjust the Power Framework pool in addition to the power in question. It normally takes two individual adjustments to do this, but Expanded Effect can short-cut it. It then says that a slot may not exceed pool points regardless of the adjusted effect.

 

I had forgotten that bit. Words to that effect are also in 5ER.

[The Main Man]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I also seen to recall that Steve gave a ruling (or maybe it was in a book somewhere) that each *application* of an Aid fades' date=' not the total amount. I.e., 3 pumps of Aid STR, and in PF12, 15 points fade away. Personally, I would never Nerf Aid that badly and thus wouldn't use that rule -- if it exists.[/quote']

Well, each application fades seperately as based on when they were applied. That's technically good, but it can also get tedious. I call it a wash.

[The Main Man]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I had forgotten that bit. Words to that effect are also in 5ER.

 

Speaking of HERO 5er, as the "HERO guru" of my group, I read snippets of the core rules at least once a week to catch things that I may have missed ever since one of the less experienced members called me out on a rule (Trigger, if you're wondering). And now whenever I discover something in 6e, I go straight to 5er to see whether the ruling is actually new or not. Announcements are smoother when the players realize that a rule didn't change but rather that they were wrong about it in the first place.

[SteveZilla]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Speaking of HERO 5er' date=' as the "HERO guru" of my group, I read snippets of the core rules at least once a week to catch things that I may have missed ever since one of the less experienced members called me out on a rule (Trigger, if you're wondering). And now whenever I discover something in 6e, I go straight to 5er to see whether the ruling is actually new or not. Announcements are smoother when the players realize that a rule didn't change but rather that they were wrong about it in the first place.[/quote']

 

I did the same thing for my (very) old group, back when 4th edition came out.

[randian]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I would also rule that you can't have a 10 DCV against everyone but the guy trying to lay a hand on you to boost your STR...

That would be a house rule. Page 167, Using Aid: "If the target’s willing to be affected by the Aid, including when the character uses his Aid on himself, the Attack Roll succeeds automatically"

[phookz]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

It's worse than that. That's potentially 30d6 Aid to STR' date=' or 180. 180! For every member of the team for 96 points. Probably should buy an Endurance Reserve for the END Cost though. [/quote']

 

Nobody is ever going to roll 180 on 30d6. Theoretically it's possible, in practice you'll never see it, ever. You'll have a better chance of hitting the lottery three times, or getting struck by lightning six times.

 

In any event, the MP I posted was merely there to point out what various Aid builds would actually provide under 6E rules.

 

As The Main Man already pointed out the Maximum Effect rules that make this argument moot. You can't stack adjustment powers.

[casualplayer]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Nobody is ever going to roll 180 on 30d6. Theoretically it's possible, in practice you'll never see it, ever. You'll have a better chance of hitting the lottery three times, or getting struck by lightning six times.

 

In any event, the MP I posted was merely there to point out what various Aid builds would actually provide under 6E rules.

 

As The Main Man already pointed out the Maximum Effect rules that make this argument moot. You can't stack adjustment powers.

 

Like Grailknight said two applications of each slot, with an average roll, will apply the maximum Aid. You might get two below average rolls, then you have to apply the slot thrice. If you fail to max out the Aid slot after three rolls, retire the dice.

 

Of course you can stack adjustment powers, just not if they are the same power. Two Bull Strength potions don't make you twice as strong as a bull, but a Bull Strength potion plus a Belt of Giant Strength? Sure, unless all Aid has been made like Healing where only Aids that exceed the greatest amount already applied have any effect. That would be news to me.

 

The problem doesn't lie with Aid, or any adjustment power. The problem is with Multipower/VPP and powers persisting even when the pool is shifted away from that power.

[phookz]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

The problem doesn't lie with Aid' date=' or any adjustment power. The problem is with Multipower/VPP and powers persisting even when the pool is shifted away from that power.[/quote']

 

The problem lies with trying to abuse the rules. This particular example is mitigated extremely by the fact that Aids don't stack, but abusing the rules isn't limited to Aid or Multipower - there are many ways to abuse the rules. You can get just as much cheese without the Multipower, it just costs a little more.

[The Main Man]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Like Grailknight said two applications of each slot, with an average roll, will apply the maximum Aid. You might get two below average rolls, then you have to apply the slot thrice. If you fail to max out the Aid slot after three rolls, retire the dice.

 

Of course you can stack adjustment powers, just not if they are the same power. Two Bull Strength potions don't make you twice as strong as a bull, but a Bull Strength potion plus a Belt of Giant Strength? Sure, unless all Aid has been made like Healing where only Aids that exceed the greatest amount already applied have any effect. That would be news to me.

 

The problem doesn't lie with Aid, or any adjustment power. The problem is with Multipower/VPP and powers persisting even when the pool is shifted away from that power.

1) Yes, Aid's maximum effect functions as Healing did;

 

2) I also addressed the Power Framework issue: a Slot's Active Points may not exceed the Pool's Point Total i.e. the Pool must also be adjusted, whether individually, through Expanded Effect, or through division of dice rolls. I'm sure that this rule existed back in 5e.

[The Main Man]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Oh yeah, Stevezilla did clarify that 5er had the same rule. And it's at the top of the page.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Say what? Aids do stack, whether it is multiple applications of the same power (yes, two "Bull Strength" potions will stack their effects unless given a Limitation of some kind; this is not D&D!) or applications of different Aid powers. They just can't stack beyond the Maximum Effect of either of the powers being used.

 

To me that means if a 2d6 Aid adds 7 points and a 4d6 Aid then adds 5 points (not likely, but bear with me), you're up by 12. But then the 2d6 Aid is done and can't add anything more, and the 4d6 Aid will have to make up the 7 points added by the lesser Aid before it can go above the 12 point boost (it's easy to judge if you simply ignore the order they were applied in; pretend the 2d6 Aid is applied last). However, if the Fade Rate of the 2d6 Aid is significantly longer, it still shouldn't be ignored....

 

That's very different from Healing. If a 2d6 Healing adds 7 points and then a 4d6 Healing adds 5 points, you're up 7 points (not 12). If the 4d6 Aid then adds 10 points, you're up a total of 10 points (not 15 and certainly not 17 or 22!). No cumulative effect whatsoever until the re-use duration has passed.

[casualplayer]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Aids are cumulative up to the maximum capacity of the Aid and, if I'm reading the rules quote Phookz provided correctly, the maximum capacity of all Aids in 5th/6th is only the maximum capacity of the maximum Aid not the sum of the maximum capacities of the Aids applied even if there are varying sources of the Power.

 

That's a patch that makes some small sense in superheroic but breaks down completely in heroic, and really should have been made genre specific or even an Adjustment Power modifier. I'm a little irritated that I can't have a DEMON ritual where the flunkies each perform a 1d6 All Magical Powers Aid on the Morbane, because apprently no matter how many flunkies the most the Morbane is getting is 6pts. Apparently I have to partially limit the Morbanes powers Only in the Presence of 6 Flunkies, Only in the Presence of 66 Flunkies, Only in the Presence of 666 Flunkies, etc. What a PITA.

 

And I still maintain that this evil patch was made necessary by making Adjustment effects persist even if the MP/VPP pool is shifted away from the Adjustment power. Adjustment Powers bought outside of a MP/VPP are cost prohibitive enough to preempt the kind of guff we've talked about before. And, hey, it's still rules legal in 5th/6th for me to have a +STR slot in my MP and a STR Aid slot also so I can still bust it open just not as egregiously.

[The Main Man]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Say what? Aids do stack, whether it is multiple applications of the same power (yes, two "Bull Strength" potions will stack their effects unless given a Limitation of some kind; this is not D&D!) or applications of different Aid powers. They just can't stack beyond the Maximum Effect of either of the powers being used.

 

To me that means if a 2d6 Aid adds 7 points and a 4d6 Aid then adds 5 points (not likely, but bear with me), you're up by 12. But then the 2d6 Aid is done and can't add anything more, and the 4d6 Aid will have to make up the 7 points added by the lesser Aid before it can go above the 12 point boost (it's easy to judge if you simply ignore the order they were applied in; pretend the 2d6 Aid is applied last). However, if the Fade Rate of the 2d6 Aid is significantly longer, it still shouldn't be ignored....

 

That's very different from Healing. If a 2d6 Healing adds 7 points and then a 4d6 Healing adds 5 points, you're up 7 points (not 12). If the 4d6 Aid then adds 10 points, you're up a total of 10 points (not 15 and certainly not 17 or 22!). No cumulative effect whatsoever until the re-use duration has passed.

I never meant to infer that; I meant that, based on phookz's Multipower:

 

Cost POWERS

60 Multipower, 60-point reserve - END=

6f 1) Strength Boost I: Aid 3d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Day; +2 1/4) (58 Active Points) - END=6

6f 2) Strength Boost II: Aid 3 1/2d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Hour; +1 3/4) (58 Active Points) - END=6

6f 3) Strength Boost III: Aid 4d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per 20 Minutes; +1 1/2) (60 Active Points) - END=6

6f 4) Strength Boost IV: Aid 4d6+1, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per 5 Minutes; +1 1/4) (58 Active Points) - END=6

6f 5) Strength Boost V: Aid 5d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1) (60 Active Points) - END=6

6f 6) Strength Boost VI: Strength Boost VI: Aid 10d6 (60 Active Points) - END=6

 

The maximum effect would actually be only 60, not 180, because the 10d6 Aid has the largest maximum effect. Using any of the lesser Aid builds would only extend the Fade Rate as per their construction or else to help reach 60 if the 10d6 Aid (likely) doesn't reach it in one roll.

 

 

Also, wasn't this thread about Endurance Reserve?

[prestidigitator]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I never meant to infer that; I meant that, based on phookz's Multipower:

 

The maximum effect would actually be only 60, not 180, because the 10d6 Aid has the largest maximum effect. Using any of the lesser Aid builds would only extend the Fade Rate as per their construction or else to help reach 60 if the 10d6 Aid (likely) doesn't reach it in one roll.

Ah. Okay. Gotcha. Agreed, then.

[SteveZilla]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Nobody is ever going to roll 180 on 30d6. Theoretically it's possible, in practice you'll never see it, ever. You'll have a better chance of hitting the lottery three times, or getting struck by lightning six times.

 

In any event, the MP I posted was merely there to point out what various Aid builds would actually provide under 6E rules.

 

As The Main Man already pointed out the Maximum Effect rules that make this argument moot. You can't stack adjustment powers.

 

Roy Sullivan has survived being struck by lightning seven times!

[SteveZilla]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I'm a little irritated that I can't have a DEMON ritual where the flunkies each perform a 1d6 All Magical Powers Aid on the Morbane' date=' because apparently no matter how many flunkies the most the Morbane is getting is 6 pts. Apparently I have to partially limit the Morbanes powers Only in the Presence of 6 Flunkies, Only in the Presence of 66 Flunkies, Only in the Presence of 666 Flunkies, etc. What a PITA.[/quote']

 

There are alternatives. The Ritual Limitation from Fantasy Hero 5th ed (p 135) comes to mind. This makes it one big Aid that takes 6 or 66 or 666 casters, depending upon how it is built. Being a single Aid Power, it has the full Maximum Effect it is due.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

There are alternatives. The Ritual Limitation from Fantasy Hero 5th ed (p 135) comes to mind. This makes it one big Aid that takes 6 or 66 or 666 casters' date=' depending upon how it is built. Being a single Aid Power, it has the full Maximum Effect it is due.[/quote']

...which also made it into 6E as Requires Multiple Users (6E1 p. 392). IIRC it might have even been in 5ER.

[SteveZilla]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

...which also made it into 6E as Requires Multiple Users (6E1 p. 392). IIRC it might have even been in 5ER.

 

So it was! 5ER, p 306.

[phookz]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Roy Sullivan has survived being struck by lightning seven times!

 

He probably had it coming

[casualplayer]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I was aware of it. PITA. Additions that were made due to changes that caused more problems than they "solved." I thought that was for other game systems.

[algesan]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Like Grailknight said two applications of each slot, with an average roll, will apply the maximum Aid. You might get two below average rolls, then you have to apply the slot thrice. If you fail to max out the Aid slot after three rolls, retire the dice.

 

Of course you can stack adjustment powers, just not if they are the same power. Two Bull Strength potions don't make you twice as strong as a bull, but a Bull Strength potion plus a Belt of Giant Strength? Sure, unless all Aid has been made like Healing where only Aids that exceed the greatest amount already applied have any effect. That would be news to me.

 

The problem doesn't lie with Aid, or any adjustment power. The problem is with Multipower/VPP and powers persisting even when the pool is shifted away from that power.

 

Depends on how they are built. I build wearable items (usually) as +X to stat Y and expendable items (usually) as AID. So in that case, they would stack because the Belt would be giving you +X STR and the Potion would give you Yd6 of STR Aid.

[algesan]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

The problem lies with trying to abuse the rules. This particular example is mitigated extremely by the fact that Aids don't stack' date=' but abusing the rules isn't limited to Aid or Multipower - there are many ways to abuse the rules. You can get just as much cheese without the Multipower, it just costs a little more.[/quote']

 

BINGO! Give the man a cigar. Hero has always been a system prone to abuse, by its nature it must be one. Whether or not a player tries to abuse it is up to the player.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Aids are cumulative up to the maximum capacity of the Aid and, if I'm reading the rules quote Phookz provided correctly, the maximum capacity of all Aids in 5th/6th is only the maximum capacity of the maximum Aid not the sum of the maximum capacities of the Aids applied even if there are varying sources of the Power.

 

That's a patch that makes some small sense in superheroic but breaks down completely in heroic, and really should have been made genre specific or even an Adjustment Power modifier. I'm a little irritated that I can't have a DEMON ritual where the flunkies each perform a 1d6 All Magical Powers Aid on the Morbane, because apprently no matter how many flunkies the most the Morbane is getting is 6pts. Apparently I have to partially limit the Morbanes powers Only in the Presence of 6 Flunkies, Only in the Presence of 66 Flunkies, Only in the Presence of 666 Flunkies, etc. What a PITA.

 

And I still maintain that this evil patch was made necessary by making Adjustment effects persist even if the MP/VPP pool is shifted away from the Adjustment power. Adjustment Powers bought outside of a MP/VPP are cost prohibitive enough to preempt the kind of guff we've talked about before. And, hey, it's still rules legal in 5th/6th for me to have a +STR slot in my MP and a STR Aid slot also so I can still bust it open just not as egregiously.

 

Funny...I didn't think those DEMON minions would have multipowers and VPP's. Would we allow a PC to design a Follower with 1d6 Aid to all of his powers, let's say with a 1 per day fade rate (that's +2 1/2, right?) and slap 4 charges on it (a -1 limitation) for a net cost of 10, give him a few skills and stats for taste so he's a 25 point character (5 point follower) and then spend another 45 points on doublings so he has 512 of them and start every game out with a 3,072 AP boost to all his powers and stats? [nb: I started spending 95 on doublings but, of course, a 3,145,728 boost to his powers might be overkill...). Drop the followers' other abilities a bit and slap Megascale AoE and selective on there - they can target Our Hero from anywhere on the planet.

 

Frankly, I don't care if it's harder to build the Morbane. The Morbane is an NPC. He has as many points as I need to get the effect I want. His character construction mechanics are secondary at best. He can have the extra powers through Aid spells cas by his legion of flunkies, or he can have additions to his powers limited by how many flunkies he has, or the flunkies can have abilities Usable by Others, Only by Morbanes that accumulate, or you can just handwave it as a plot device. The Flunkies can have a way bigger Aid with each increment requiring more multiple users.

 

But I doubt you will allow FollowerMan (by the way, he's a reformed DEMON morbane, and many of his flunkies reformed with him - that's why his power is so similar to the one you want for that Morbane). So why is it OK for the NPC, but forbidden for a player character? Because it is somehow overpowered for the price. [And I bet your Morbane doesn't even pay for the followers...]

[algesan]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Aids are cumulative up to the maximum capacity of the Aid and, if I'm reading the rules quote Phookz provided correctly, the maximum capacity of all Aids in 5th/6th is only the maximum capacity of the maximum Aid not the sum of the maximum capacities of the Aids applied even if there are varying sources of the Power.

 

That's a patch that makes some small sense in superheroic but breaks down completely in heroic, and really should have been made genre specific or even an Adjustment Power modifier. I'm a little irritated that I can't have a DEMON ritual where the flunkies each perform a 1d6 All Magical Powers Aid on the Morbane, because apprently no matter how many flunkies the most the Morbane is getting is 6pts. Apparently I have to partially limit the Morbanes powers Only in the Presence of 6 Flunkies, Only in the Presence of 66 Flunkies, Only in the Presence of 666 Flunkies, etc. What a PITA.

 

And I still maintain that this evil patch was made necessary by making Adjustment effects persist even if the MP/VPP pool is shifted away from the Adjustment power. Adjustment Powers bought outside of a MP/VPP are cost prohibitive enough to preempt the kind of guff we've talked about before. And, hey, it's still rules legal in 5th/6th for me to have a +STR slot in my MP and a STR Aid slot also so I can still bust it open just not as egregiously.

 

Well, use the Cumulative advantage if you don't like the Ritual disadvantage. Or reverse it onto Morbane who gets the AID d6/flunky with a maximum of .... 10 flunkies' worth? 60 points be enough for all powers? Using standard effect that would require 20 flunkies, but that is the bit you can fiddle with.

 

I was aware of it. PITA. Additions that were made due to changes that caused more problems than they "solved." I thought that was for other game systems.

 

Actually, I always looked on it more as trying to help players have more elegant ways to simulate abilities and powers. Of course with more elegance and flexibility comes more abuse potential.

[phookz]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I was aware of it. PITA. Additions that were made due to changes that caused more problems than they "solved." I thought that was for other game systems.

 

I may be misunderstanding your position, but it sounds like you would prefer it if the GM didn't have to adjudicate power builds. I don't think that's possible in a universal system with an open framework. That's the price you pay for the flexibility HERO gives you. As has been pointed out multiple times, there are plenty of ways to munchkin the system, the least of which is getting a point break for putting a power in a Framework.