Not Quite Free Equipment

[prestidigitator]

I'm considering this primarily with fantasy in mind, but it could apply to other genres too. I was thinking about the problem of balancing fighting ability with magic in heroic games. Most times I see this handled by giving a large reduction in the cost of magical ability to match the fact that equipment such as weapons and armor are not paid for with character points. But what if we approached it from the other end: make the ability to use equipment more expensive than, say, the 1-2 point Weapon Familiarities we are used to. In fact, make fighter-types pay for the full abilities of their weapons, but in a general and free-form enough manner to partially keep the feel of an equipment-based heroic game intact.

 

I'm going to follow up with some posts to show what I mean for various aspects of equipment from weapons to armor to shields. I really think it could be made to work, but I may need some feedback and help to tweak things and get it right.

[prestidigitator]

Weapons

 

To be able to use a weapon you pick up/buy with proficiency, you must have the appropriate Attack Power: Hand Killing Attack, Ranged Killing Attack, Hand Attack, or Blast (if you wish to be able to use multiple varieties, you may buy them in a Multipower--so long as you aren't planning to simultaneously dual wield weapons of each type, like a sword and a club). The Attack Power is bought with Reduced Endurance: 0 End (+1/2), Variable Special Effects at the +1/4 level (unless you wish to narrow your proficiency to one tight group on the Weapon Familiarity table), and Obvious Inaccessible Focus (-1/2) to represent the usual object-of-opportunity concept.

 

You must have as many dice as the weapon's base damage does. If the weapon has some kind of Advantage (e.g. Range Based on Strength for weapons that can be thrown, or Armor Piercing for some weapons such as picks), you must have either the suitable amount of Variable Advantages on the Attack Power as well, or you must buy the applicable Advantage as a Naked Advantage (and apply Modifiers in a similar fashion to buying weapon-type Attack Powers) on the number of DCs the weapon provides.

 

You will also apply a Limitation called Subject to Real Weapon (-3/4), which is (in spirit) sort of like Variable Limitations, only less under your own control. It represents the fact that you are subject to any and all Limitations on whatever weapon you pick up and wield. This includes things like Real Weapon, Strength Minimum, Required Hands, any OCV penalties the weapon is normally subject to, etc.

 

If you pick up a weapon you are not proficient with (your Attack Power is of the wrong kind, not large enough, limited as described below, or lacking the appropriate Advantages), you suffer not only -3 OCV to use that weapon, but (similar to how Skills work) you may not apply any Combat Skill Levels (or Penalty Skill Levels!) to the use of the weapon. This means you cannot increase your OCV or damage when attacking with the weapon, and only CSLs that are not restricted by weapon or offensive maneuver type (e.g. CSLs with Dodge, all HTH Combat, Overall CSLs, or Overall Skill Levels) may be applied to your DCV while wielding the weapon.

 

If you wish to further limit the range of weapons with which you are familiar (beyond type of Attack Power, number of dice, and applicable Advantages), you may take a Limitation on your Attack Power. This represents things like the restriction of the variable SFX on your power and the difficulty of finding weapons "of opportunity". The possible levels are as follows:

 

• Very Broad Group (-1/4): For example, Common Melee (or Missile) Weapons plus up to 3 individual WFs.
  
• Broad Group (-1/2): For example, Common Melee (or Missile) Weapons or up to 5 individual WFs.
  
• Narrow Group (-3/4): For example, up to 3 individual WFs.
  
• Extremely Narrow Group (-1/2 plus no Variable Special Effects): For example, a single WF (though not necessarily a single weapon since you can have WFs like "Axes, Maces, Hammers, Picks").

[prestidigitator]

Armor

 

To be able to use armor you pick up/buy with proficiency, you must have the appropriate Defense Power, which usually means Resistant Protection (but in some games might include others like Damage Negation, Damage Reduction, plain PD/ED, etc.). The Defense Power is bought with Variable Special Effects at the +1/4 level (unless you wish to limit yourself to one type of armor, such as leather), and Obvious Inaccessible Focus (-1/2) to represent the usual object-of-opportunity concept.

 

You must have as much Defense as the armor's base protection provides, of all types that the armor provides (e.g. rPD, rED, PD, ED, Damage Negation, etc.). If the armor provides any Advantages (such as Hardened), you must either have the appropriate amount of Variable Advantages on the Defense Power(s), or buy the Advantage in question as a Naked Advantage on the amount of defense the armor provides.

 

You will also apply a Limitation called Subject to Real Armor (-3/4), which is (in spirit) sort of like Variable Limitations, only less under your own control. It represents the fact that you are subject to any and all Limitations on whatever armor you pick up and wield. This includes things like Real Armor, Mass (Encumbrance), etc.

 

If you don armor you are not proficient with, not only do you suffer a -3 DCV while wearing it (the GM may choose to reduce this penalty for armor that is very light, either in terms of weight or protective value or both, or that is very close to the amounts of protection you have purchased), but you may not apply any Combat Skill Levels whatsoever to your DCV (including those provided by a shield, so your best bet for utilizing a shield is to Block with it).

 

Depending on your game and setting, you may be able to further limit the types of armor you are proficient with (e.g. maybe "Only Force-Field Based" in a Sci-Fi campaign?), but by default the type and amount of Defense provided should be enough.

[prestidigitator]

Shields

 

To be able to use a shield you pick up/buy with proficiency, you must have the appropriate Combat Skill Levels. These are Overall CSLs (10-point) bought with Shield-Based Maneuvers Only (-1) to represent that they can apply to DCV (against all attacks), OCV with Block or shield bashes, or damage with shield bashes. The CSLs are bought with Obvious Inaccessible Focus (-1/2) to represent the usual object-of-opportunity concept.

 

You must have as many CSLs as the shield's base protection provides.

 

You will also apply a Limitation called Subject to Real Shield (-3/4), which is (in spirit) sort of like Variable Limitations, only less under your own control. It represents the fact that you are subject to any and all Limitations on whatever shield you pick up and wield. This includes things like a required hand, Strength Minimum, and whatever partial-coverage restrictions a GM might choose to apply (like possibly not working against attacks from behind your character).

 

If you use a shield you are not proficient with, you many only apply half the CSLs it normally provides (rounded up, of course), and may not apply it in any fashion at all except in Phases where you spend a Half-Phase action specifically bringing the shield to bear.

 

Depending on your game and setting, you may be able to further limit the types of shield you are proficient with, but by default the number of CSLs provided should be enough.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Not Quite Free Equipment

 

Okay. That's what I've got so far. Let your scathing criticisms fly.

[Escafarc]

Re: Not Quite Free Equipment

 

I find using the Resorce Point System works well for my games.

[The Main Man]

Re: Not Quite Free Equipment

 

You've done this before, haven't you Pres? Pretty neat.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Not Quite Free Equipment

 

Hmm. In small parts I have, but it's the first time I've really put it all together in one cohesive package.

 

Let's see what a complete build or two looks like, to get an idea of what we're looking at.

 

Veteran Arms Master (example only)

 

Belonging to an experienced soldier who has extensive training and is a veteran of many battles and many years of fighting, this proficiency package allows its owner to wield any (fantasy-style) weapon, don any armor, and pick up any shield in the standard 6E tables without penalty. Either been there, done that, or experienced enough to be able to pick up something new and figure it out with a moment of study and a few experimental swings.

 

Weapon Master:

61 point Multipower

All slots: OIF: weapon of opportunity (-1/2); Subject to Real Weapon (-3/4) [27 real]

 

1f.) HKA: 2d6+1; Reduced End: 0 End (+1/2); Variable Special Effects: weapon-based (+1/4) [61 active; 3 real]

 

2f.) HA: 6d6; Reduced End: 0 End (+1/2); Variable Special Effects: weapon-based (+1/4); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) [52 active; 2 real]

 

3f.) RKA: 2d6; Reduced End: 0 End (+1/2); Variable Special Effects: weapon-based (+1/4) [52 active; 2 real]

 

[34 total]

 

plus

Naked Armor Piercing (+1/4) on up to 44 Active Points of HKA; Reduced End: 0 End (+1/2); OIF: weapon of opportunity (-1/2); Subject to Real Weapon (-3/4) [11 base; 16 active; 7 real]

 

plus

Naked Ranged Based on Strength (+1/4) on up to 44 Active Points of HKA; Reduced End: 0 End (+1/2); OIF: weapon of opportunity (-1/2); Subject to Real Weapon (-3/4) [11 base; 16 active; 7 real]

 

Armor Master:

Resistant Protection: 8 rPD, 8 rED; Variable Special Effects: armor-based (+1/4); OIF: armor of opportunity (-1/2); Subject to Real Armor (-3/4) [30 active; 13 real]

 

Shield Master:

CSLs: +3 with All Combat [30 active]; Shield-Based Maneuvers Only (-1); OIF: shield of opportunity (-1/2); Subject to Real Shield (-3/4) [30 active; 9 real]

 

Total Arms Master Cost: 70 points

(EDIT: I realized by examining the weapons chart that weapons with Armor Piercing and/or Range Based on Str are of limited DCs, so the Naked Advantages didn't need to be bought for the full extent of the HKA power. 44 Active Points is sufficient, the biggest attack with each being 1.5d6 and the only attack with both being a puny 0.5d6.)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Not Quite Free Equipment

 

Archer (example only)

 

This package is for someone who is a trained archer and can pick up any bow, and has had a small amount of training with light bladed weapons (up to a broadsword). It also includes practice fighting in light armor (up to boiled leather), but no training with a shield.

 

Archery and Light Blades:

45 point Multipower

 

All Slots: OIF: weapon of opportunity (-1/2); Subject to Real Weapon (-3/4); Single WF Only (-1/2) [16 real]

 

1f.) RKA: 2d6; Reduced End: 0 End (+1/2); Bows Only (included above) [45 active; 2 real]

 

2f.) HKA: 1d6+1; Reduced End: 0 End (+1/2); Blades Only (included above) [30 active; 1 real]

 

[19 real]

 

Light Armor:

Resistant Protection: 3 rPD, 3 rED; Variable Special Effects: armor-based (+1/4); OIF: armor of opportunity (-1/2); Subject to Real Armor (-3/4) [11 active; 5 real]

 

Total Archer Cost: 24 points

[prestidigitator]

Re: Not Quite Free Equipment

 

Infantry (example only)

 

Training in most common melee (up to 2d6K and 6d6N) and a few (thrown) ranged weapons, medium armor (up to chain), and up to medium shields.

 

Most Common Melee and Thrown Weapons:

52 point Multipower

All slots: OIF: weapon of opportunity (-1/2); Subject to Real Weapon (-3/4); Common Melee Weapons plus Thrown Javalins, Spears, Knives, Axes and Darts Only (-1/4) [21 real]

 

1f.) HKA: 2d6; Reduced End: 0 End (+1/2); Variable Special Effects: weapon-based (+1/4); [52 active; 2 real]

 

2f.) HA: 6d6; Reduced End: 0 End (+1/2); Variable Special Effects: weapon-based (+1/4); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) [52 active; 2 real]

 

[25 total]

 

plus

Naked Armor Piercing (+1/4) on up to 44 Active Points of HKA; Reduced End: 0 End (+1/2); OIF: weapon of opportunity (-1/2); Subject to Real Weapon (-3/4); Common Melee Weapons plus Thrown Javalins, Spears, Knives, Axes and Darts Only (-1/4) [11 base; 16 active; 6 real]

 

plus

Naked Armor Piercing (+1/4) on up to 44 Active Points of HKA; Reduced End: 0 End (+1/2); OIF: weapon of opportunity (-1/2); Subject to Real Weapon (-3/4); Common Melee Weapons plus Thrown Javalins, Spears, Knives, Axes and Darts Only (-1/4) [11 base; 16 active; 6 real]

 

Medium Armor:

Resistant Protection: 6 rPD, 6 rED; Variable Special Effects: armor-based (+1/4); OIF: armor of opportunity (-1/2); Subject to Real Armor (-3/4) [22 active; 10 real]

 

Medium Shields:

CSLs: +2 with All Combat; Shield-Based Maneuvers Only (-1); OIF: shield of opportunity (-1/2); Subject to Real Shield (-3/4) [20 active; 6 real]

 

Total Infantry Cost: 53 points

[Markdoc]

Re: Weapons

 

To be able to use a weapon you pick up/buy with proficiency' date=' you must have the appropriate Attack Power: Hand Killing Attack, Ranged Killing Attack, Hand Attack, or Blast (if you wish to be able to use multiple varieties, you may buy them in a Multipower--so long as you aren't planning to simultaneously dual wield weapons of each type, like a sword and a club). The Attack Power is bought with [i']Reduced Endurance: 0 End (+1/2)[/i], Variable Special Effects at the +1/4 level (unless you wish to narrow your proficiency to one tight group on the Weapon Familiarity table), and Obvious Inaccessible Focus (-1/2) to represent the usual object-of-opportunity concept.

 

You must have as many dice as the weapon's base damage does. If the weapon has some kind of Advantage (e.g. Range Based on Strength for weapons that can be thrown, or Armor Piercing for some weapons such as picks), you must have either the suitable amount of Variable Advantages on the Attack Power as well, or you must buy the applicable Advantage as a Naked Advantage (and apply Modifiers in a similar fashion to buying weapon-type Attack Powers) on the number of DCs the weapon provides.

 

You will also apply a Limitation called Subject to Real Weapon (-3/4), which is (in spirit) sort of like Variable Limitations, only less under your own control. It represents the fact that you are subject to any and all Limitations on whatever weapon you pick up and wield. This includes things like Real Weapon, Strength Minimum, Required Hands, any OCV penalties the weapon is normally subject to, etc.

 

If you pick up a weapon you are not proficient with (your Attack Power is of the wrong kind, not large enough, limited as described below, or lacking the appropriate Advantages), you suffer not only -3 OCV to use that weapon, but (similar to how Skills work) you may not apply any Combat Skill Levels (or Penalty Skill Levels!) to the use of the weapon. This means you cannot increase your OCV or damage when attacking with the weapon, and only CSLs that are not restricted by weapon or offensive maneuver type (e.g. CSLs with Dodge, all HTH Combat, Overall CSLs, or Overall Skill Levels) may be applied to your DCV while wielding the weapon.

 

If you wish to further limit the range of weapons with which you are familiar (beyond type of Attack Power, number of dice, and applicable Advantages), you may take a Limitation on your Attack Power. This represents things like the restriction of the variable SFX on your power and the difficulty of finding weapons "of opportunity". The possible levels are as follows:

 

• Very Broad Group (-1/4): For example, Common Melee (or Missile) Weapons plus up to 3 individual WFs.
  
• Broad Group (-1/2): For example, Common Melee (or Missile) Weapons or up to 5 individual WFs.
  
• Narrow Group (-3/4): For example, up to 3 individual WFs.
  
• Extremely Narrow Group (-1/2 plus no Variable Special Effects): For example, a single WF (though not necessarily a single weapon since you can have WFs like "Axes, Maces, Hammers, Picks").

 

 

We actually started our career in Fantasy hero - before there was a Fantasy Hero, but only Champions - doing more or less exactly this. It was, I am afraid to admit, teh suck. The problem in Fantasy Hero, is that mages are typically much more flexible, and usually more powerful than fighter types, so saddling fighter types with extra costs makes them even weaker - and in our games, simply meant that after a short trial period, everyone retired their fighters to play mages.

 

cheers, Mark

[prestidigitator]

Re: Weapons

 

We actually started our career in Fantasy hero - before there was a Fantasy Hero' date=' but only Champions - doing more or less exactly this. It was, I am afraid to admit, teh suck. The problem in Fantasy Hero, is that mages are typically much more flexible, and usually more powerful than fighter types, so saddling fighter types with extra costs makes them even weaker - and in our games, simply meant that after a short trial period, everyone retired their fighters to play mages.[/quote']

Huh! And yet, to this day I see people using magic systems where mages simply buy their spells as Skills, Talents, or Perks, or only pay 1/3 the cost for spell powers. My main motivator for this is that I ran a small adventure for some D&D converts and the mage basically couldn't do more than a couple Stun in damage and lock some doors and things. Admittedly that was for only 100-point characters in 6E, but the warrior types were amazingly potent in comparison. And that's using a VPP magic system where the mage didn't have to pay for the actual spells he knew at all (only the pool).

[Markdoc]

Re: Not Quite Free Equipment

 

If you search on the fantasy board for free+equipment you'll pull up dozens of threads discussing this. Every GM's experience is different, of course, but a large number of threads deal with "Help! How can I stop mages overwhelming my game?" and a lot of the answers involve restricting mages so that they don't become the magical equivalent of Green Lantern while everyone else is playing Aquaman. In contrast, I can't think of any thread, where GMs have had the opposite problem.

 

It is possible (especially at lower points levels) for the mage to feel useless in combat if he tries to duplicate the fighter's attacks. But the mage has access to a far wider range of tools. I like VPPs for mages, since they prevent exceedingly high active point powers. But a 30 point VPP - not unreasonable for 100 point mage - gives access to (potentially) far better protection than a fighter can have, invisibility, flight, Flash and - the bane of fighters - entangle, plus a bunch of other stuff. Sure, the fighter has better Combat stats, but being able to walk up to him invisible - so that he's half DCV and OCV negates much or all of that advantage and giving him a 2d6+STR EHKA in the face, will probably do more than a few stun ...

 

Of course, if your mage in the game didn't have useful powers, it's a different story - and that's the point: you need to control mages (and one way is to control access to powers/spells) to stop them overwhelming the game. Doing that for a one-shot is not too hard: unless set up that way in advance, it becomes increasingly difficult as a longer-term game progresses - which is where the imbalances begin to appear. I'll admit my bias up front: I don't often run or play in one-shot games, so my concerns and my experience is heavily weighted toward longer-lasting campaigns. And I've run and played in a lot of those over the last quarter century: fantasy hero has always been our mainstay.

 

Think about it. For the price you suggest, a fighter who buys a wide but fairly standard range of familiarities (common melee and missile weapons - up to greatsword and heavy longbow) pays 21 points plus another 14 for Plate Armour, plus another 9 to use any shield. Your heavy fighter is thus in for 44 points, before he spends anything on characteristics or skills.

 

The mage spends 37 points to get a 30 point VPP, with Gestures (one handed) incantations and RSR, plus another 7 for Power skill magic +2. He's spent the same amount of points, and has the disadvantage that he has to actually cast to get his powers. Again that's a pretty vanilla build. But in addition to potentially being able to generate a more powerful HTH attack than the fighter gets (because he doesn't have STR min), he can also have far better protection (up to 20 PD armour) - and flight, zero end invisibility to sight. He can see in the dark. He can breathe underwater. He can use TK to pick the fighter up and send him 50 metres into the air and all of these powers cost him 0 XP to add. And as set up, he can have at least two of these powers active at any one time: if he uses spells based on continuing charges, he could easily have more. Moreover, the two have the same amount to spend on characteristics, so there is no guarantee that the fighter will be any faster, tougher or stronger ....

 

You can see where this is going - the fighter pays a big ol' chunk of point but gets access to a very limited range of powers. The Mage pays about the same but gets access to potentially any power.

 

There is an additional side effect to this system, which is worth considering: the best fighters probably wouldn't use weapons, or armour as this is set up - they'd buy martial arts, combat luck and spend the rest on improved SPD, CV or CSLs. 44 points invested like that would let him beat the living daylights out of the poor shmuck who had saddled himself with 44 points of gear. If you want game where "heavy fighter" isn't a viable archetype, then this would be the way to go. Likewise, 24 points on martial arts plus 12 points on a 10 active point spell pool of "ki powers" plus (for example) an extra point of SPD would be an effective build. So your suggested system would be good for - for example - a wild asian martial arts system where people by and large don't use weapons or armour, but rely on martial arts, ki powers and magic.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Edit: this shows the strength of Hero - as noted above, it's not that what you suggest is a "bad idea" - it'd be perfect for some settings - just that it will almost certainly not generate a fairly standard fantasy feel.

[GAZZA]

Re: Not Quite Free Equipment

 

Well, for the FH game we're about to start, we're flat out paying points for everything - if you want a sword, you buy the HKA equivalent. The GM has accepted (with reservations) such things as a VPP Weapon pool (change at arsenal), and so on.

 

I suspect all of us will end up with some level of magic, though.

[Markdoc]

Re: Not Quite Free Equipment

 

You will. We've been down that road multiple times in the past, with different game settings and different GMs and that's always where we ended up. Note: I'm not sayin' that's a bad thing - we had plenty of fun on the way and we played like that for about 3 years.

 

cheers, Mark

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Not Quite Free Equipment

 

My experience matches Marcdoc's. free gear helps even things out for non mages. A package for sorcery requiring certain standard limitations did the rest. Mages are more typically much more flexible, and usually more powerful than fighter types, especially in a high magic campaign, so I've never had aproblem with them being underpowered.

 

That being said, if you have theproblem and your solution works for you, great.

[Ice9]

Re: Not Quite Free Equipment

 

I think the issue here is pretty much the "Subject to Real Weapon" thing. Just having a straight Multipower of weapon attacks doesn't seem like a bad value at all - I've seen plenty of Champions characters who had something similar. However, when you factor in that most weapons are only using a small portion of the available power, with limitations like Strength Minimum that reduce that further, then it starts to lose ground against a comparatively "open" magic pool. Especially with the whole HKA/RKA STR thing, weapons are just not constructed in a framework-friendly manner.

 

Also, for 6E in particular, having "partially" Zero-END attacks (in that the STR costs END) is not a good value (point-wise) at all.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Not Quite Free Equipment

 

I again simply state that "free equipment" does not make the fighter more powerful than the wizard, while the wizard in fact needs to be heavily limited to not completely overpower the fighter. When one guy has a free sword, and the other can tell the laws of physics to take a long walk off a short pier... you don't go and further limit the guy with the sword to keep him from being "more powerful" than the wizard.

 

That being said, do as you will

[Ice9]

Re: Not Quite Free Equipment

 

I'd agree that if one player voluntarily decides to take only a small subset of the powers available, excluding many of the more versatile options, then some (effectively) extra points for them are probably not going to break things.

 

However, I don't think "free equipment" necessarily accomplishes that, for the simple reason that wizards can have free equipment too. Armor already stacks with magical protection unless specifically limited not to, and weapons combine quite well with the right kind of spells. All it means is that spells like "Spirit-Guided Arrow" and "Strength of the Titan" are better combat choices than "Lightning Bolt". Or just use spells for non-combat utility, and do your fighting with a sword.

 

Now sure, you can - with campaign rules - make combinations like that more difficult. Making "armor failure" mandatory for spells, requiring a high "buy in" for spellcasting and/or combat prowess to make having both impractical, prohibiting spells that directly stack with normal combat ability, and so forth. But in that case, the real balance factor is not "free equipment", but instead "non-spellcasting characters get some extra points". Which may be the right rule for some campaigns, but is only indirectly related to equipment.

[Markdoc]

Re: Not Quite Free Equipment

 

I'd agree that if one player voluntarily decides to take only a small subset of the powers available' date=' excluding many of the more versatile options, then some (effectively) extra points for them are probably not going to break things.[/quote']

 

If you stick with the simple mage/non-mage dichotomy (and many gamers do) then that's usually where you end up. I allow superskills for all characters, but even so, in general mages will have access to a broader selection of powers. In my own games, I balance that off by restricting magic to certain schools, so that all characters can choose from a subset of powers.

 

However' date=' I don't think "free equipment" necessarily accomplishes that, for the simple reason that wizards can have free equipment too. Armor already stacks with magical protection unless specifically limited not to, and weapons combine quite well with the right kind of spells. All it means is that spells like "Spirit-Guided Arrow" and "Strength of the Titan" are better combat choices than "Lightning Bolt". Or just use spells for non-combat utility, and do your fighting with a sword.[/quote']

 

I'd agree with that: the magically augmented fighter is by far the most cost-effective archetype there is. If a GM wants a wider range of character types, then it's up to him to set up his ground rules to change that - in my games for example, you can't generally combine free equipment with powers bought with points (so no applying naked advantages to free weapons, or stacking a forcefield over your free armour. In my games, that's part of the "real" limitation).

 

Now sure' date=' you can - with campaign rules - make combinations like that more difficult. Making "armor failure" mandatory for spells, requiring a high "buy in" for spellcasting and/or combat prowess to make having both impractical, prohibiting spells that directly stack with normal combat ability, and so forth. But in that case, the real balance factor is not "free equipment", but instead "non-spellcasting characters get some extra points". Which may be the right rule for some campaigns, but is only indirectly related to equipment.[/quote']

 

Mostly, I'd agree - except that the "free points" come in the form of equipment, by and large, so equipment does play a major role.

 

cheers, Mark