John515 - Rules Question Followup

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The best defense is to take your lumps

 

Originally posted by Mtinaro

Now my only point which may have gotten mis understood was that the EP was not at a minus to attack after taking such a deadly hit with a sword. Now after a brief(ahem) explanation from John515 I quickly understood that this was all well within the rules of the HERO system. I am ok with everything up to that point. I just had to say that maybe the system is flawed in someway. Of course this never sits well with anyone who is running a game( I have run games which John515 has played in for almost 2 years now). I just found it was strange that there is no negative modifier after taking damage to the point of being knocked out.

 

The rules aren't always the rules. There are some rules for imeded combat abilities for badly injured characters, but they commonly aren't used in superheroic games. You should also note that, unless the EP was pretty low defensively, he was likely stunned, not cut. Inflicting Body damage is pretty rare, and a character with a code vs killing striking undefended targets with a killing attack would have some disadvantages to buy off pretty quick.

 

Some of the problem likely arises with a lack of familiarity with the game system. The ability to recover varies with the amount of negative STUN. To -9, it's every phase (they';re not "out cold"). To -19, it's post segment 12 only, so once a turn. To -29, it's once a minute (5 turns) so generally out for the fight. At -30 it's "Gm Discretion" - he's out cold and will likely wake up in the prison van (or the villain's deathtrap). Characters can, and commonly are, KO'd without being dead.

 

Now, the rules can easily be tinkered with. If your group wants to apply some penalties for someone low on Stun, or just recovering consciousness, or what have you, there's no harm in that. Too many penalties aren't in genre, but some could certainly be justified. However, remember that any such penalty will also apply to the PC's when they are in this position - and they will be - so accept that the gain when you KO an opponent is a loss when they KO you.

[KA.]

Re: The best defense is to take your lumps

 

Originally posted by Mtinaro

Ah said crying character was me(not admitting to crying). All in all was mostly a system question to help me understand what happens when someone is knocked unconscious. Having said that I will describe the setting and my question a bit differently than John515 did. At the time the PCs did not know they were being tricked into attacking a good government facility. The players were told it was a terrorist bio-chemical warfare research facility. This was also to be the PCs first encounter ever with Supers. Also this was the second gaming session the group have ever played of Champions. The players (except one) all have a moral code against killing. Now we get to where the game gets tricky for me. COMBAT. After the martial artist attacked the Energy Projector with a sword, the EP went down unconsious. Remember except for the Martial Artist the PCs are against killing. Now turns are 12 second of time from what I have been told. Now in less than 24 seconds the EP is back up and in adequate shape to fire off a blast. Now my only point which may have gotten mis understood was that the EP was not at a minus to attack after taking such a deadly hit with a sword. Now after a brief(ahem) explanation from John515 I quickly understood that this was all well within the rules of the HERO system. I am ok with everything up to that point. I just had to say that maybe the system is flawed in someway. Of course this never sits well with anyone who is running a game( I have run games which John515 has played in for almost 2 years now). I just found it was strange that there is no negative modifier after taking damage to the point of being knocked out. The rules are the rules and the Gamemaster is the Gamemaster in my book. I agree that that is how the game works. I just have to rethink how hard is it going to be to keep my code against killing. I wonder if this is the reason so many combics have gotten dark and gritty.

 

If I move into a room with more than one opponent, I have to concentrate on making sure one of them stays unconcious the whole fight. If I do not do this when I move from one unconscious target to a new target I will be attacked from the unconscious target before combat is over. With out killing any of my opponents combat could go on for well over 15 turns. A PC might even be in a perpetual loop of attacking the same targets over and over and over. I just thought there should be a way to take them out of combat permantly without using killing attacks or killing them. I want to uphold the code against killing. I hate to like this to any other system so I will not. Some things should be able to take a beating and keep coming or getting up but even in the comics when a hero is knocked out he is not back until after the fight.

 

I am already trying to think of ways to overcome this. I guess after knocking someone out I could bind them.

 

I only mentioned this as a flaw because I could not see why there would be such a great detailed system that would not give negative modifiers to damaged supers. I want to be heroic, but it will be hard to keep from killing if I have to watch over my back to make sure everything I have hit so far hasnt gotten back up.

 

Maybe there is a state of really knocked out that takes you out of combat. I have had the Hero rules for about one month now, but I regret I have not read the whole book as of yet, and may not understand everything about the rules. Before I purchased the book, I borrowed John515's book(he was trying to convince us to try hero) and read through a little. I had a great character concept and thought of a truely christian morally based character(in real life I am not a nutbag). I also scanned through the champions books as well. John515 has done an excellent job of bearing with us as we learn a new system. Of course his GM style is new to us as well, but so far no complaints about that at all. I even want to say that with all the different games that I have played, I have only found this one thing that seemed flawed to me. Of course I could write a book on what is flawed in D&D and Vampire adn Rifts and so on. There is good balance in our group and no Min/Max going on. No power-gaming. John515 created characters with us and made sure we did not stray by concetraing on unbelievable stats or broken power combinations(even though I looked for them ). I must appluad him at every turn. I even liked how he ran the situation that this post is about. I just didnt understand it. I do now. Thanks for letting me put up my opinions.

 

Hi there Mtinaro,

Welcome to Hero!

There are plenty of ways to "put people down", and after a little more reading, it will all make sense to you.

Briefly, Hero evolved from Champions, which was intended to simulate Super Hero Comics. If you read those, especially some of the older ones, (The "Marvel Essentials" paperbacks, [around $15 for a bunch of consecutive issues all in one book] are a great way to start) this sort of thing happens all the time. Since heroes are almost all reluctant to kill, they don't do massive amounts of damage when they fight other supers.

Goons and henchmen get taken out with one shot, but super villains get knocked down and pop back up like a jack-in-the-box a few seconds later. It usually takes a couple of "knockdowns" to put someone out of the fight.

(And often they do play possum, as do the heroes.)

 

It is just a completely different set of concepts from the more lethal, hack and slash, type games.

 

Think of it like a boxing match.

The object of boxing is to knock out your opponent.

But, you can't do a lot of things that would make this easier like:

1) Replace padded gloves with brass knuckles.

2) Stomp opponents when down.

3) Aim for kidneys, groin, etc.

 

Why? Because then it wouldn't be boxing.

 

Superheroic combat is it's own, stylized, "sport".

 

Hero does have rules to allow for more "realistic" combat, but they are not recommended for Supers campaigns unless you want things really "dark".

 

Just remember that, if you are playing "four color" Supers, that things aren't as lethal as they are in other genres.

 

Player Characters get ambushed, knocked out, mind controlled, etc. all the time. But you aren't going to get killed, it is just part of the genre.

 

Unless you are playing one of the very dark genres, Supervillains aren't going to kill you, they are going to place you:

"in an easily escapable situation involving an overly elaborate and exotic death.

Scott Evil: Wait, aren't you even going to watch them? They could get away!

Dr. Evil: No, no, no. I'm going to leave them alone and not actually witness them dying. I'm just gonna assume it all went to plan. . . .What?"

 

It is just a different mind set.

 

KA

[John515]

Aw, shucks!... Thanks mtinaro! (I have been a player in his last 3 games, so I have big shoes to fill. His partner in crime, Gary, doesn't cut me any slack either- so they keep me on my toes).

 

The decision to have the NPC recover was a cinematic one, done purely to spice up the encounter a bit. Glad you enjoyed it! Now, what next?.......

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Farkling

Negative BODY does NOT cause uncosciousness.

Wow! I have since re-read the rules, FAQs, etc., and see that you are right. Sorry for the mistake.

 

Fancy that! After playing Hero for close to ten years I completely missed this. I guess I had always imposed assumptions based on previous roleplaying experiences (i.e. D&D). I have to say that I do love the independence of unconsciousness and dying. Woooo hoooo! Another plus for Hero!