John515 - Rules Question Followup

[eepjr24]

John515 said:

1 STUN = Fully Recovered & at full strength

Any ideas on how to handle this? I have a player who was complaining about a villian who, after waking up, plugged her in the back with an energy blast. I explained that the villian had taken an extra recovery and "played possum" in order to get a good shot at her (held action, braced, etc), but my player complained that there's no way he should be "at full strength" after getting knocked out and then coming back up to +1 STUN. I await your ruling or suggestions.....

I conside this to be normal super villain tactics, if you allow them to have recoveries at all. One possible problems is that 0 Stun = 0 End, so unless the attack cost 1 End or less, said SV just went unconcious again. And just let players know that the same applies to them, they are not limited after being unconsious, so the playing field is equal.

 

In actuality, it is better for the players in my campaigns. This is because in many battles, the bad guys don't get recoveries once they are unconcious. The reason for that is to prevent the 'heroes' from taking another shot or two at the villains to make sure that they stay down. If they get back up in my games, it is usually dramatic license or to signify an especially tough or high rec/regen opponent.

 

- Ernie

[tiger]

There is no hard & fast rule that I know off, although there could be in FRED. I haven't manage the time to read it cover to cover.

 

Basically if you have the end to pull off the attack then you have the attack at full str. The rule I do use however is that when Stun hits 0 so does END. So you starting at scratch when you start your recovery. I use the following, not saying this is the official rule just mine.

 

End = 0 when stun hits 0.

End doesn't start to recover until Stun is above 0.

So if in segment 1 character's Stun is now above 0, the next recovery his End can start climbing from 0.

 

It's worked well so far.

[Hugh Neilson]

It sounds like your player doesn't like the rule. You can play hardball and say "too bad - that's the rule!". Alternatively, you could discuss with your group how you want to vary it. But make it clear that whatever the rule is, it will apply for both the player characters and their opponents. If the villain only has half power for a turn after recovering consciousness, so do the heroes.

[Chris Goodwin]

This might help. FREd p. 274:

 

"The body of an unconscious character puts its entire energy reserve into waking up. Because of this, when the character wakes up, his END equals his current STUN total."

[JmOz]

Originally posted by tiger

There is no hard & fast rule that I know off, although there could be in FRED. I haven't manage the time to read it cover to cover.

 

Basically if you have the end to pull off the attack then you have the attack at full str. The rule I do use however is that when Stun hits 0 so does END. So you starting at scratch when you start your recovery. I use the following, not saying this is the official rule just mine.

 

End = 0 when stun hits 0.

End doesn't start to recover until Stun is above 0.

So if in segment 1 character's Stun is now above 0, the next recovery his End can start climbing from 0.

 

It's worked well so far.

 

I think I will be doing that at -10 (up till -10 the villain is still cauntious)

[dugfromthearth]

it is really very simple

 

when you are at 0 stun you are at 0 END.

 

Normally you only get as much END back as stun, so if you are at 1 stun you will be at 1 end.

 

You can do a 12d6 punch if you want. But that costs 6 END, and since you only hav 1 END, the extra 5 END are paid by taking stun dmg - 1d6 per 2 END (Fred 286). So you would do 12d6 to them and take 3d6 yourself, knocking yourself back unconcious.

 

Now if you had an attack that took no END to use - say a gun, you could recover to 1 stun and fire off a bullet without knocking yourself out.

 

This all seems perfectly reasonable.

 

Now it might seem strange when you can get to 1 stun and 1 end and shoot off a 12d6 firebolt from your eyes at 0 end cost, but the strange part is being able to shoot firebolts from your eyes - the ) END and being able to do it just after recovering conciousness is just window dressing.

[MisterD]

I still remeber shooting four arrows into an enemy in AD&D and have then keep fighting like nothing happened.

 

I know this is not waking from 0 end. but I get the same reaction

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by MisterD

I still remeber shooting four arrows into an enemy in AD&D and have then keep fighting like nothing happened.

 

I know this is not waking from 0 end. but I get the same reaction

 

I just watched Fellowship of the Rings today. The arrow thing is nothing...

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by MisterD

I still remeber shooting four arrows into an enemy in AD&D and have then keep fighting like nothing happened.

 

I know this is not waking from 0 end. but I get the same reaction

 

Adding reductions to combat effectiveness for injury complicates combat immensely. That's why a lot of games avoid it, and many more use only a very simplistic version.

 

You could impose penalties at various levels of STUN (%remaining). IIRC, there are some optional "pain" rules for people who have taken BOD. You could even impose penalties when END drops below some threshhold ("You're getting tired - it's affecting your fighting").

 

For fantasy and supers gaming, however, the genre contains lots of examples of characters who get up and are fully capable of acting, ignoring their cuts, scrapes and bruises. That's good enough for me to suspend my disbelief. If you'll believe a man can fly, why not that he can recover and be ready to act?

[Tech]

In my campaign, I use END rules for powers and well as most other rules. Hmm, can't think of any I don't use, except Long-term END (and even then, in very special occasions, I use it.) I allow villains to 'play opossum' but the heroes get a PER roll to see the faking. Let's face it: there are some really lousy actors out there and villains fall into that category, too.

 

If the villain was faking it, I'd let the hero get a change to see through the deception with a PER roll, or a PER vs PS: Acting or some other skill. Even at 1 STUN, a villain can get a shot off, assuming it didn't know the villain back out. There are tons of stories, movies, etc., where someone wakes back up and takes a shaky shot at the hero.

[Demonsong]

I have been toying with a penalty system, at first it was very comprehensive and very long and way to cumbersome. Now I and thinking of a more kiss system.

 

Full to1/2 Stun = No penalties

Below half stun = -1 to all rolls, actions, DCV and OCV

 

Full to 1/3 Body = No penalties

1/3 to 2/3 Body = -1 to all rolls, actions, DCV and OCV

Below 2/3 Body = -1 (-2 total) to all rolls, actions, DCV and OCV

 

All penalties are accumulative. It’s not perfect but it is simple and easy. I have not introduced it in to my game yet because some of the players are sill learning the system. But I think it might work well.

[dugfromthearth]

it is simple and not a bad system.

 

but you forgot negative body.

 

I would go with -1 for under 1/2 body, and -2 if you are at negative body.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

it is simple and not a bad system.

 

but you forgot negative body.

 

I would go with -1 for under 1/2 body, and -2 if you are at negative body.

You don't get rolls when you have negative Body. You are either dying or unconscious until you heal enough to reach 1 Body (or is it 0?).

 

I have actually been toying with the idea of taking away an amount of Long Term End equal to the amount of Body taken (maybe just converting some of the End already spent into LTE loss when the character is not at max). That would mean that, unless you have gotten some good recovery time in, you effectively have less energy to fight. The problem is that this penalizes characters with high Body more ("we're both at 2 Body. He has more End than I do because he starts with less Body?!"), especially because starting End depends only on Con, not Body. I still like the idea, but don't know how to fix this problem. Maybe any loss of Body when your current Body is below your max End? Any ideas?

[dugfromthearth]

my understanding is that negative stun makes you unconcious.

 

negative body means you are dying - it does not make you unconcious.

 

my characters end up fighting a lot with negative body.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

my understanding is that negative stun makes you unconcious.

 

negative body means you are dying - it does not make you unconcious.

 

my characters end up fighting a lot with negative body.

...or bandaging themselves, huh? I'll have to re-read the standard rules on this, and think about it a lot for my games.

[John515]

Thanks for all the input!- You all rock!

 

The scenario was that the players were tricked (by VIPER) into assaulting a "terrorist base" (actually a US govt secret lab). After a few rounds of combat, the base-defending energy projector got laid out by the team martial artist. EP's Stun total was reduced to about -9. On her next REC phase, she was back up to about +5 ish, took another recovery phase (add another 14-15 STUN) and then proceeded to attack the hero from behind (she was again felled by another member of the team and REALLY laid out this time....). The villian did not use excessive END and was trying deperately to drive off the invaders from the base.

 

I don't see how this could be considered what the players called "a weakness" in the system. (This was coming from someone who had just got a copy of the book a week before and had never played before.....)I thought that the reduced END incurred by coming out of being unconscious DID reflect a state of reduced combat capability. All I heard was a bunch of whining about how the bad guy didn't stay down and managed to get in a good shot against a player character. That's superhuman combat for ya! I DID ask them to make a PER roll (to see if they could tell the villian was playing possum-though I didn't tell them what the roll was for) and I gave them a -5 to the roll. They all failed their rolls, so they didn't notice that she wasn't really unconscious. What's the problem? ;-) Besides, it really spiced up the encounter and made for some good EP vs EP combat....yay!

 

And BTW, if any of my players are reading this, you all got off light. The PC's sword attacks were stronger than they were supposed to be (I made a mistake in your favor and just let it ride for the rest of the encounter) and the agents didn't coordinate themselves as well as they really could've. I 'm trying to ease you all into HERO combat slowly, instead of trying to beat the crap out of you from the very first combat. Besides, you did really well that night AND you got yourselves a great recurring villian agency (and friends....) See you Sunday--be ready! Mr. Meyers might not be done w/you yet.....

[JmOz]

Did the player who complian by chance come from a "Leathal" game such as D&D (when an opponent goes down he is dead and you can forget about him)?

 

If so it might of just been the different mentality behind the mechanics got him and it cost him a little

[Farkling]

Ne

You don't get rolls when you have negative Body. You are either dying or unconscious until you heal enough to reach 1 Body (or is it 0?).

 

Negative BODY does NOT cause uncosciousness. Many a valiant HERO has fought on in spite of his lethal wounds...right up until he lost his last few STUN points, collapsed, and caused headline news the following day...and some valiant heroes triumph and make it to the hospital/labratory/sarcophagus "in the nick of time"

 

Negative BODY does mean you have sustained enough physical damage to your "structure" that only your sheer determination is keeping you going. You are fighting on in spite of blood loss, internal injuries, massive bleeding, broken bones. Picture it as the character going into shock and riding the adrenaline...he is dying, but his body hasn't laid down to accept it. You could also picture it as sufficient damage that the MORE he exerts himself, the more damge he is doing to himself...thus the continued BODY loss.

 

By the book (I think), the blood loss (BODY slipping away) is stopped from paramedics rolls and a lack a strenuous manuevers. Keep in mind, it IS possible to collapse...that 1 point BODY loss on PS12 WILL cause a STUN pip...you always take STUN=BODY damage...right?

 

And, penalties for BODY damage DO exist under the woudning/impairing rules. STUN loss should not cause impairment in my view...stunning is a large enough effect in itself to be an impairment...as is the up n down combat actions of a character with low STUN pips. STUN loss can actually be pictured as gradual exhaustion of your body's ability to cope with the abuse of combat. When your pain threshhold is exceeded, you are dazed temporarily (Stunned, staggering aroound, clawing your way back to consciousness), as you try to cope with it, or you are rendered unconscious (no STUN) until you can cope with it again (REC).

 

Not to mention the bookwork of tracking penalties and enforcing them on the players AND my villains...I'd need a custom sheet with penalty levels...like they use in WHITE WOLF! I'd rather use White Wolf in that situation ... it would be slicker.

 

And, the much observed d20 competition does not impose even these penalties. They fight like demons at full power in DnD, and drop like a stone when Hit Points hit 0. Then they die at -10...and if something drops them to -10, poof...it's all over. No chance to save yourself...

[Farkling]

The villian did not use excessive END and was trying deperately to drive off the invaders from the base.

 

And now that she has been unsuccessful...just what was she afraid of? Being fired? Being shot? Being stuck into that experimental power amplifier that VIPER confiscated from the mad scientist they killed (He was brewing designer drugs in his secret underground lab) ?

 

Perhaps VIPER will now kill one of her captive family members because of her failure?

 

How evil are they?

[John515]

Actually, the defending supers were defending a govt facility. A VIPER agent managed to trick them into working for a "newly formed govt agency" and sent them out to raid a "secret terrorist weapons lab". When they broke through, they were attacked by other supers in the employ of the facility. The defending super was trying to keep it from falling into the wrong hands. Pretty heroic, eh?

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

my understanding is that negative stun makes you unconcious.

 

negative body means you are dying - it does not make you unconcious.

 

my characters end up fighting a lot with negative body.

Although the rules dont explicitly state this, this is my understanding as well. To the best of my knowledge, nowhere does it say "You fall unconcious when you hit negative body".

 

This permits some very cinematic and dramatic moments not possible in other games where this does not occur.

 

Just recently in fact War-Man (a character in our Champs game) pressed on at like -4 BODY and below, trying to stop the Black Harlequinn's occupation of Omegaworld.

[Mtinaro]

The best defense is to take your lumps

 

Ah said crying character was me(not admitting to crying). All in all was mostly a system question to help me understand what happens when someone is knocked unconscious. Having said that I will describe the setting and my question a bit differently than John515 did. At the time the PCs did not know they were being tricked into attacking a good government facility. The players were told it was a terrorist bio-chemical warfare research facility. This was also to be the PCs first encounter ever with Supers. Also this was the second gaming session the group have ever played of Champions. The players (except one) all have a moral code against killing. Now we get to where the game gets tricky for me. COMBAT. After the martial artist attacked the Energy Projector with a sword, the EP went down unconsious. Remember except for the Martial Artist the PCs are against killing. Now turns are 12 second of time from what I have been told. Now in less than 24 seconds the EP is back up and in adequate shape to fire off a blast. Now my only point which may have gotten mis understood was that the EP was not at a minus to attack after taking such a deadly hit with a sword. Now after a brief(ahem) explanation from John515 I quickly understood that this was all well within the rules of the HERO system. I am ok with everything up to that point. I just had to say that maybe the system is flawed in someway. Of course this never sits well with anyone who is running a game( I have run games which John515 has played in for almost 2 years now). I just found it was strange that there is no negative modifier after taking damage to the point of being knocked out. The rules are the rules and the Gamemaster is the Gamemaster in my book. I agree that that is how the game works. I just have to rethink how hard is it going to be to keep my code against killing. I wonder if this is the reason so many combics have gotten dark and gritty.

 

If I move into a room with more than one opponent, I have to concentrate on making sure one of them stays unconcious the whole fight. If I do not do this when I move from one unconscious target to a new target I will be attacked from the unconscious target before combat is over. With out killing any of my opponents combat could go on for well over 15 turns. A PC might even be in a perpetual loop of attacking the same targets over and over and over. I just thought there should be a way to take them out of combat permantly without using killing attacks or killing them. I want to uphold the code against killing. I hate to like this to any other system so I will not. Some things should be able to take a beating and keep coming or getting up but even in the comics when a hero is knocked out he is not back until after the fight.

 

I am already trying to think of ways to overcome this. I guess after knocking someone out I could bind them.

 

I only mentioned this as a flaw because I could not see why there would be such a great detailed system that would not give negative modifiers to damaged supers. I want to be heroic, but it will be hard to keep from killing if I have to watch over my back to make sure everything I have hit so far hasnt gotten back up.

 

Maybe there is a state of really knocked out that takes you out of combat. I have had the Hero rules for about one month now, but I regret I have not read the whole book as of yet, and may not understand everything about the rules. Before I purchased the book, I borrowed John515's book(he was trying to convince us to try hero) and read through a little. I had a great character concept and thought of a truely christian morally based character(in real life I am not a nutbag). I also scanned through the champions books as well. John515 has done an excellent job of bearing with us as we learn a new system. Of course his GM style is new to us as well, but so far no complaints about that at all. I even want to say that with all the different games that I have played, I have only found this one thing that seemed flawed to me. Of course I could write a book on what is flawed in D&D and Vampire adn Rifts and so on. There is good balance in our group and no Min/Max going on. No power-gaming. John515 created characters with us and made sure we did not stray by concetraing on unbelievable stats or broken power combinations(even though I looked for them ). I must appluad him at every turn. I even liked how he ran the situation that this post is about. I just didnt understand it. I do now. Thanks for letting me put up my opinions.

[Farkling]

Go take another look at the damage section...if you are serious about "keeping them down" you can buy powers for it, sure.

 

REC drains, STUN suppression, Entangles, END Drains, NND attacks, Stun only attacks, Ego Attacks (sleeeeeep), the list becomes endless.

 

Now, a character at 0 to -10 is, um, in a hazy place...kinda alive and kinda asleep. If they can make a simulate death or a acting roll, they can fake unconsciousness...of course...the same works for you too...

 

Enhanced Senses can compensate

"Detect Combat Readiness, sight group, Discriminatory, Analyze" is an overboard response.

 

Also, a character below -30 is in a place known as GM's discretion. They take recoveries (REC) over a longer term tahn 'once per Turn'...most of us move the period down the time chart in noncombat time, but in combat, I usually leave them down unless it is dramatic and appropriate (and it was! The EP was a HERO defendeing the world against metahuman terrorists!)

 

A downed opponent will wake with END = STUN ... and using a full power might knock them out again...

 

A downed opponent ALSO has no DCV...so you can hit them with a pulled punch or a "flatted" killing attack as appropriate.

Heck, buy nerve pinches in your Martial Arts and just routinely apply them to downed opponents as time permits...

 

I don't ADVOCATE hitting a downed opponent. It isn't very heroic, and it is pretty counter genre...but there ARE options...that's what HERO is all about.

[dugfromthearth]

on page 274 of Fred they suggest to speed up fights you not let NPC's take recoveries - except for the most powerful or important NPC's.

 

also somewhere else it suggests that when villains are knocked unconcious they just die conveniently, preventing heroes from having to do the very unheroic coup de grace on unconcious opponents. That can be extended to having villains stay unconcious instead of having to keep hitting them when they are down to keep them unconcious.

 

But cinematics rule. If the GM wants someone to recover or it just seems like it would be cool, then they can and do recover.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

on page 274 of Fred they suggest to speed up fights you not let NPC's take recoveries - except for the most powerful or important NPC's.

 

also somewhere else it suggests that when villains are knocked unconcious they just die conveniently, preventing heroes from having to do the very unheroic coup de grace on unconcious opponents. That can be extended to having villains stay unconcious instead of having to keep hitting them when they are down to keep them unconcious.

 

But cinematics rule. If the GM wants someone to recover or it just seems like it would be cool, then they can and do recover.

 

I apply these rules to mooks - generally agents and bank robbers in Supers games. Given the typical recovery of such characters, it's commonly not much of a sacrifice.

 

However, if you're going to apply them to Supers, why not buy a Limitation on their recovery that it drops to 1 when they are unconscious. It's facetious, but why should HeroMan get to use his 20 REC while he's downed if VillainGuy doesn't?

 

Now, once they're below -20 the problem commonly goes away - how many fights last the minute they need to get a recovery? Commonly, I'll just put those sheets away - those guys aren't recovering before the end of the battle anyway.