Martial Arts Based on ECV?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Okay, I've been tossing around some odd character and Power Advantage ideas. One character idea I came up with was a psionic martial artist. I'm trying to figure out how to build this character both effectively (both in terms of cost and in terms of him being effective in-game) and also within both the letter and the spirit of the game rules... and to determine whether it's worth the bother.

 

The special effect I'm going for is a character who is a reasonably skilled martial artist, and who has an advantage over most other martial artists in that, through unconscious/instantaneous precognition and telepathy, he can read his opponents' moves, thus having an advantage in both attacking and dodging opponents. For ease of reference, rather than saying "the character" all the time, I'm going to call this hypothetical character "Mentat."

 

Now, the safest way to do this would be to give Mentat lots of 5-CSVs for HTH and DCV, with some having the Limitation that they don't work against unliving/unthinking opponents such as zombies or automatons, or perhaps against opponents with various levels of Mental Defense (he can't read them as easily). That is easy, and workable, and it's probably the best way to portray the effect I'm looking for.

 

But - and here's an idea I can't completely let go, even though I also can't figure out just how it would work - what about buying Mentat's martial arts maneuvers as Based on ECV? Is there a way this could be both legal and workable without all sorts of odd rules twinks?

 

As I see it, the attacks would still go vs. normal defenses (PD) rather than Mental Defense - he's still punching or kicking someone, not doing Ego Attacks - and Mentat would act on his EGO rather than his DEX, and use ECV+martial maneuver bonuses/penalties vs ECV to determine whether or not he hits.

 

Problems with this idea include:

1) What about opponents with no EGO, like automations.. or just punching doors, walls, etc. Would such an attack construct default to DEX then, and is this legal?

2) Would Mentat have to also buy the BOECV Advantage on his Strength (perhaps with the Limitation "Only in HTH Combat," -1/4) and/or on any weapons (HA) he used with the martial arts, via weapons elements?

3) What about the concept of Mentat being hard to hit by opponents he can read? Should opponents have to go their ECV vs. his (which seems blatantly broken), or OCV vs. his ECV (which also seems a bit funky), or would they still go OCV vs. DCV, with his Ego Martial Arts providing no advantage (aside from any DCV modifiers provided by martial maneuvers)?

 

The concept makes my head hurt, but it's also intriguing.

 

Any ideas?

[Steve Long]

My suggestion: check out The UNTIL Superpowers Database, specifically the "Precognitive Powers" section. It has several powers -- Precognitive Aim, Precognitive Dodge, and others -- that you could adapt to represent the effect you're looking for. Appropriate Limitations ("Only Versus Beings With Minds" or the like) simulate the "psionic" special effect instead of the "precognitive" special effect.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I definitely need to get that book. None of the local stores have it, and I don't particulary trust any of them to be timely on special orders (based on past experience), so it looks like HERO will make more bucks direct off me.

 

Oh, and while I didn't state it clearly, my initial CSL idea did include a mix of some pure levels (precog) vs. some with the "minds" limitation, to cover that mix of telepathic and precog abilities - Mentat would get a better read on (i.e., be better at hitting/dodging) opponents with minds than those without, but still have some enhanced ability (via unconscious precog) to launch and dodge other sorts of opponents.

 

No comment on the EGO-based Martial Arts, though, Steve?

[Steve Long]

Well, when I get around to redoing The Ultimate Mentalist, it'll definitely have some mental combat rules that you might call "Mental Martial Arts" -- but that's as close as I'm likely to come on the subject. If want to pony up the points to buy BOECV for a whole bunch of Martial Maneuvers, I say it'll certainly make for an intriguing type of character.

 

The rules for buying Advantages for Martial Maneuvers can be found on pages 104-05 of The Ultimate Martial Artist, btw, in case you hadn't seen 'em.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Originally posted by Steve Long

The rules for buying Advantages for Martial Maneuvers can be found on pages 104-05 of The Ultimate Martial Artist, btw, in case you hadn't seen 'em.

 

I am just starting to read UMA, actually, so I hadn't gotten to that point yet.

 

Having done so now, I can say... ouch! Definitely not cost-effective.

[zornwil]

I think the skill levels are the best way to go, but perhaps to better model it you could require a successful Telepathy roll before each use. If the time for Telepathy concerns you (the half phase) then you could make the Telepathy Continuous/0 END or such. Either way, the power will work better when the targets have low MD/EGO and not work against strong mental characters. You could buy the Telepathy only for this purpose (depending on the character's use and the campaign this could be -2 down to -1/2, I wouldn't want to presume for the GM) and buy the skill levels with "only after successful Telepathy" and give it the same limitation value as RSR (-1/2; unless the GM isn't going to have many non-minded things or any high-EGO/MD characters in which case it should probably be -1/4 - although philosophically speaking RSR is often built on skills that are really high-powered in Champions games, so maybe -1/2 is still fair).

[CrosshairCollie]

I would permit ECV-based Martial Arts just so I could hear someone declare a Mental Block.

[Fireg0lem]

I would buy martial arts as normal, but a low STR and no extra DC, then buy a HtH attack with BOECV. This would be pretty point-efficient, it avoids the "can't break down doors" thing, and it is 100% legal (potentially velveeta, but legal velveeta).

[Vondy]

Sounds like "lightsaber combat" to me

 

It makes sense for certain special effects, and could be done by adding a limited form of the BOECV advantage to the maneuvers in question (or build it as a multipower using actual powers).

 

I would think a BOECV attack that used ECV to hit and block, but not for damage, would come in at +1/2 (since it would do damage normally (I'm assuming) and wouldn't be line of sight like most mental powers (unless its some truly wacky martial madness you have in mind).

[Dauntless]

Well, at high levels of martial arts in the real world, it really IS more a matter of ECV than physically based CV. So I think there's something of a fine line at which point a martial artist is relying more on his mental capabilities than his physical ones. Internal styles are far more likely to encourage this training at an earlier stage than harder more external styles.

 

There's some interesting anecdotes about Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, and some of his practically superhuman abilities. One of them was that he simply couldn't be surprised. Ueshiba even said that while he served in Manchuria, he could always tell if someone was trying to aim a gun at him. As an old man, several of his ukemi (live-in disciples) would try to sneak on him during his sleep, but they could never surprise him. And how can a late 60's year old man hold a stick straight up in the air (holding it only at the bottom with one hand) while Japan's greatest baseball player of all time took his hardest swing at the stick, and Sadahara Oh said he felt like he hit a 200 yr old oak tree? And that's not going into stories attributed to Tai Chi or Bagua masters either.

 

There's obviously a mental component going on here. So I definitely think there's something to be said for this even at a Heroic Level campaign. There's already sensory powers that martial artists can use that are based on mental capabilities (Defense Manuever, Combat Sense for example). But what about actually basing one's combat skill on mental levels? Anyone who's ever trained with older martial arts masters can attest that there's something beyond physical ability in these men.

 

So how to model this? I think basing it off of ECV is too expensive to recreate this kind of special effect. Instead, basing it off of skill levels would probably be more cost efficient. However, there may be certain "zenjoriki" abilities that can not be modeled simply with CSL's. For example, Ueshiba's zanshin abilities would be some kind of Danger Sense. What about the ability to dodge bullets ala Chun from "Remo Williams"? You could either model that as Chun did with super-sensitive hearing that enabled him to literally pre-dodge the line of fire of the weapon, or you could have a mental precognition that allowed the martial artists to sense when the firer would actually pull the trigger.

 

In Aikido theory (and also explained by Chi theory), when someone wishes to attack you, they must first generate in their mind the notion to attack. This generation of an idea is created by two things...the mind (the Chinese would call it Hsin) which in turn uses the Spirit (the Chinese call this Shen) to generate the Chi necessary to actually carry out the attack. However, this mental intention can be picked up (the Chi vibes so to speak) by very sensitive and astute defenders. Ueshiba said that it is not the physical mode of attack that is stopped, but rather the direction and intention of the attack...it's very foundation in the mind of the attacker. And before someone gets the idea that you could have booby traps or the like...ALL things (according to Chinese theory) generate and have Chi (unlike Lucas's notion of the "Force" in which only living things generate and have "Force"). So even booby traps or mechanical devices generate a chi "intent".

 

Don't know if any of this helped, but it hopefully gives an idea for people who are interested in this thing ata Heroic campaign level as opposed to just a Super Mentalist Martial Artist.