Of Body and Mind

[dataweaver]

I wasn't sure which tag to use for this, because it's a combination of a campaign idea (rather, a setting idea) and a house rule that the setting is built around. I'm drawing extensively on APGII for this: I'm using a tweaked version of the Social Combat Maneuvers system; I'm using the Mind Zone variant of the Speed Zone rules (with the added complication that there might be a Speed Zone within the Mind Zone); and I'm using the Skill Difficulty system.

 

The setting is a "science meets magic" setting, with the science being "cyberpunk" and the magic being "supernatural horrors lurking in the shadows". There are cyborgs, robots, and netrunners; there are also psychics, shamans, necromancers, and cults.

 

Rules-wise, it's built on a "body/mind duality" paradigm: most characters have a body (defined by their STR, DEX, CON, BODY, OCV, DCV, PD, ED, SPD, REC, and STUN) and a mind (defined by their PRE, INT, EGO, MIND, OMCV, DMCV, SD, MD, MSpd, MRec, and COM). Only END is independent of the physical/mental divide.

 

In this model, PRE is the mental analog of STR: it dictates how effective you are when attempting to influence someone else's mind. INT is the mental equivalent of DEX, and it is used in place of DEX when determining who goes first in mental combat during a given phase. EGO is the mental counterpart to CON: where things that lack CON are generally not alive, things that lack EGO are generally not self-aware. MIND is the mental counterpart to BODY, representing in essence your sanity: as your MIND degrades, so to do your mental faculties.

 

OMCV isn't just about "psychic combat"; it's also your ability to use just the right phrase at just the right time, think of the most appropriate insult, state your case in the most logical or convincing way, and so forth. That is, it doubles as your Offensive Social Combat Value. Likewise with DMCV. In many ways, the distinction between "mental" and "social" is akin to the distinction between "energy" and "physical", which is why there is both an SD ("Social Defense") and an MD ("Mental Defense"). MSpd might only be applicable in the Mind Zone; I don't know yet. But when it is applicable, it operates exactly like SPD. Likewise with MRec and REC. COM (Composure) acts as the mental counterpart to STUN; in addition to its role in social combat, Mental Attacks inflict Mind and Composure damage rather than BODY and STUN.

 

Every entity has mental characteristics (though not all of them have a full set); but not everyone has physical characteristics (there are things that have physical characteristics but not mental characteristics; but they're not entities). In addition to automatons that have a limited subset of the physical attributes, you also have four varieties of spirits, corresponding to the four Classes of Mind: nature spirits (which register as "animal"), software entities (which register as "machine"), ghosts (which register as "human"), and ultraterrestrials (which register as "alien"). Spirits reside in hosts in the "Body Zone", but are free-roaming in the Mind Zone. (The "Mind Zone" itself may have a similar subdivision going on, with a "Human Mind" Zone, a "Machine Mind" Zone called cyberspace, an "Animal Mind" Zone where the nature spirits commune, and at least one "Alien Mind" Zone inhabited by ultraterrestrials - still debating this.)

 

I have a few more thoughts; but I'd like to get some feedback on the overall approach here before getting too far into the weeds. So: Comments? Criticism?

[Christopher]

Re: Of Body and Mind

 

Sone things:

The more Characteristics you include, they less they should cost. Otherwise characters might not be able to get usefull values for their points.

The lower vanilla Price for Mental CV's is based on their lesser unsefullness (i.e. you can't Block with MOCV for most parts). The more value you give it, the closer to the price of the normal CV's they get.

I can't really figure out why Endurance is shared, when Con, Rec, Stun and Speed are not. I think you should either go all the way and seperate it too or let Spd and Rec count for both Zones.

[torchwolf]

Re: Of Body and Mind

 

I had a similar idea and started a thread on it a while back (shelved it since 6E was just around the corner).

 

The thing that concerned me was "would this add anything except complexity to the game?"

After all, you can use the rules for AVC and AVAD to build powers that attack EGO or PRE with results similar to Mental and Spiritual Transforms.

 

Examples from other game systems:

DC Heroes used groupings of Physical, Mental and Mystical Attributes and respective damage;

Basic Roleplaying (especially Runequest) used the INT and POW (EGO/PRE equivalent) characteristics to represent Spirit Combat in a simplified fashion.

 

Hero (using the proper rules, some optional) allows for much the same, from the perspective that the default environment is the physical.

 

Now, if you intend to occasionally switch entirely between "planes of existence", the easiest way might be to have two separate character sheets for each character that will exist in more than one of these environments: one "Physical" and one "Mental".

I think that would give you the most options, whether you decide to rename the characteristics used depending on the "plane of existence" they are active on;

i.e. STR becomes "PRE" in the "Mental plane", while if that character simultaneously exists in the "Physical plane", the character's normal PRE becomes his "STR" on the "Physical plane"; the uses of each character's Characteristics change depending on where that aspect currently is.

 

Then again, that's a bit mindboggling to handle, so another approach would be to simply use a different character sheet for each "plane" that works game-mechanically the same, except that the environment (as well as the population) is different.

 

Interesting.

[dataweaver]

Re: Of Body and Mind

 

Some things:

The more Characteristics you include, they less they should cost. Otherwise characters might not be able to get usefull values for their points.

OTOH, most Characteristics already cost 1 point/level; lowering their costs would be problematic. That said, this was one of the reasons why I decided to fold the Social CVs into the Mental CVs: having to buy four CVs is bad enough; having to buy six? Ugh.

 

The lower vanilla Price for Mental CV's is based on their lesser unsefullness (i.e. you can't Block with MOCV for most parts). The more value you give it' date=' the closer to the price of the normal CV's they get.[/quote']

True enough. As well, I expect mental combat to be a bigger part of the game than it is in more traditional settings. So the Mental CVs will cost the same as the physical CVs.

 

I can't really figure out why Endurance is shared' date=' when Con, Rec, Stun and Speed are not. I think you should either go all the way and separate it too or let Spd and Rec count for both Zones.[/quote']

I'd be more inclined to share SPD and REC. Fewer traits to worry about; and I still don't get why the existing Social Combat Maneuvers system recommends a separate "Social Recovery" trait.

 

Now' date=' if you intend to occasionally switch entirely between "planes of existence", the easiest way might be to have two separate character sheets for each character that will exist in more than one of these environments: one "Physical" and one "Mental".[/quote']

Problem is that the mental characteristics are very much available in the "Body Zone": PRE, INT, and EGO have all of the normal uses that they've always had in the game; the Mental CVs, the Social Defense, and Composure are used in Social Combat, which certainly doesn't require entering the Mind Zone. MIND can be attacked by a Mental Attack or by a potentially traumatic event. The thing that defines the Mind Zone isn't the presence of mental charateristics; it's the absence of physical characteristics.

[Christopher]

Re: Of Body and Mind

 

The thing that defines the Mind Zone isn't the presence of mental charateristics; it's the absence of physical characteristics.

So your physical characteristics only count in one dimension, while your mental ones count in both?

Sounds like the mental ones are a lot more valuable...

[Lucius]

Re: Of Body and Mind

 

OTOH' date=' most Characteristics already cost 1 point/level; lowering their costs would be problematic. [/quote']

 

Some Characteristics already cost less than that. No idea why you consider it problematic.

 

[qutoe=dataweaver] That said, this was one of the reasons why I decided to fold the Social CVs into the Mental CVs: having to buy four CVs is bad enough; having to buy six? Ugh.

 

Then don't use any of them.

 

Just say that the standard to hit roll is 11, and use Combat Skill Levels etc. to adjust it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

feeding superfluous characteristics to the palindromedary

[dataweaver]

Re: Of Body and Mind

 

So your physical characteristics only count in one dimension, while your mental ones count in both?

Sounds like the mental ones are a lot more valuable...

Well, not necessarily "a lot"; that depends on how much of the action takes place in the Mind Zone. I'm planning on it being a place that the heroes visit, but not a place where they live. I think that some playtesting is called for to determine an appropriate cost, although my gut instinct is to stick with the same cost for mental characteristics as for physical ones until I see evidence that the prices need to change.

 

Then don't use any of them.

 

Just say that the standard to hit roll is 11, and use Combat Skill Levels etc. to adjust it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

feeding superfluous characteristics to the palindromedary

Eh. Taking Characteristics out of the equation entirely is a bit extreme for me. But I did say that I'm also planning on using the "Skill Difficulties" rules from APGII, which opens up another possibility: fold OCV and DCV into DEX's SV.

 

In earlier editions of Hero Games, Mental Combat Value and Mental Defense were based off of EGO (they were even called "ECV" and "Ego Defense"); and a case could be made that since Interaction Skills are based off of PRE, "Social Combat Value" should likewise be folded into PRE's SV. That said, it has always bugged me that EGO was the go-to trait for all things "psychic" while PRE was the go-to trait for all things "social", while physial conflicts had a much more diverse split.

 

I suppose that I could fold all of the mental and social combat values into INT; but that feels wrong to me, for both practical and conceptual reasons. So how about this: add a new "Empathy" Characteristic, which represents how well the character grasps emotions (both his own and others), and fold all Mental and Social Combat Values into EMP's SV. So, as far as combat systems are concerned, you have the following sets of traits:

 

Physical Combat: STR, DEX, CON, BODY, PD, ED, STUN.

Mental/Social Combat: PRE, EMP, EGO, MIND, SD, MD, COM.

Other: INT, SPD, REC.

 

In a game where mental combat has less of an emotional context to it, you might fold the Mental CVs into INT's SV instead of EMP's SV.

[Duane From RI]

Re: Of Body and Mind

 

I have numerous OCD tendencies that make me want to pigeon hole things and make sure there are one:to:one correlations, but the HERO System is a great system for breaking away from that.

For example: pain is pain, thinking straight is thinking straight. Thus STUN could easily be the pain stat for Physical, COMPOSURE is used to represent thinking straight and Mental Attacks are bought to attack one, the other or both. Suddenly MIND is not needed.

Now if I stop for a moment and take a deep breath and mutter a few affirmations to myself I am giving myself a chance to shrug off some pain, gain a little juice and re-order my thoughts all at the same time. Suddenly one REC is all that is needed.

Next consider what is a "missed" insult. A missed physical attack is obvious. A missed psychic attack is a failure to lock onto the thoughts of the opponent. But missing with a jibe or a complement? Its more reasonable to say your opponent resisted a jibe or a complement. Resist is a underlying concept of Social Defense but you no longer have to hit. Considering that PRE attacks do no physical damage, they aren't modeled well with Blast or Mental Attack anyways. How could you translate 1d6 of Stun damage, which when added up over time knocks a person unconscious, to 1d6 of humiliation or confusion?

I would not poo-poo INT quite yet. INT represents the ability to think things through and think them through fast. It represents wits, intuition, creativity and logic - all which are the application of what you know about subject x. Empathy, such as being able to detect liars, is an application of noticing standard cues and anomalies. Thus PRE that requires a roll would be an obvious construct without having to introduce an Empathy characteristic.

Next would be to fiddle with Mental Attack. What would be the appropriate advantages/limitations for hitting Composure instead of Stun? What would be an appropriate advantage/limitation for damaging EGO instead of body? Or damaging INT? Obviously Drains are pretty good at attacking EGO and INT so is linked, proportional drains appropriate?

Some drugs and toxins while physical are just as likely a special effect for attacking EGO and INT. How many of us have real resistance to drugs and toxins? AVAD allows the GM to define almost any alternate defense and as long as he can pigeon hole it into very common/common/uncommon/rare he's got himself a value. Maybe the defense for a drug or toxin is CON/3 and the rarity is thus uncommon (it won't likely ever be too high).

And then characters can take all sorts of Limited Duty characteristics and attacks. And there are also levels. Magnetism as a Talent built as Presence only for charming and levels for perceiving what the target wants to hear. OMCV only for putting humiliating illusions in the opponents head. Anything is possible.

I might even dispense with Social Defense. Damage Negation is a solid defensive concept that is priced as 5 pts of defense cancels 5 pts of attack. Maybe you build in a level or two of Social Damage Negation as an Everyman power, maybe you don't.

At this point Composure would seem to be a necessary addition but everything else would be modeled by normal HERO System mechanics. I would say Composure is necessary since attacking INT or EGO directly have ramifications that attacking STUN does not. As my pain levels go up, my Strength and Dexterity don't go down.