Ranged weapon reload times

[mhd]

I'm considering on going slightly more "realistic"/mean than the default rules on weapon reload times, to favor melee combat a bit and reduce the potential of abuse (setting has pretty great crossbows and even guns).

 

So I think I'm going with an extra phase for longbows, and with at least an extra turn for crossbows and guns (breechloaders).

 

Now for the actual questions:

 

1) "Extra Turn" seems a bit too fixed for this purpose, as reloading speed should vary by character SPD. A normal person has two actions per turn, one phase costs -3/4, one turn -1 1/4. So what would be fair costs for 2 and 3 phases?

 

2) Let's say characters buy 2 extra speed with the limitation "reloading only", that means I have two fixed phases that I can only use for that purpose, not e.g. 4 phases from which I could only use two for reloading, right?

 

3) Regarding the previous item, does "reloading only" -1, and "reload or attack with bow" -1/2 sound correct?

[Escafarc]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

I would use the Fast Draw skill instead of extra SPD. And I use # of Phases instead of Extra Turn for reloads (this comes up more with black powder weapons then bows) in my games.

[Christopher]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

I think there is an "Extra Phase" Level for Extra Time, wich means two Full phases. For a normal human (SPD 2) that equates to a complete turn.

 

You could modify the charges. Right now they only represent the number of bow/quiver. But when you buy them down to 1 charge with a increased time to "change the clip" it might work as well.

 

Butoverall I am not quite sold on it taking that much time. at SPD 2 one phase equals 6 seconds. More than enough time to load and fire a bow. You might need more time if you also use Brace and Set Maneuvers to improve your odds.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

I'm considering on going slightly more "realistic"/mean than the default rules on weapon reload times, to favor melee combat a bit and reduce the potential of abuse (setting has pretty great crossbows and even guns).

 

So I think I'm going with an extra phase for longbows, and with at least an extra turn for crossbows and guns (breechloaders).

 

Now for the actual questions:

 

1) "Extra Turn" seems a bit too fixed for this purpose, as reloading speed should vary by character SPD. A normal person has two actions per turn, one phase costs -3/4, one turn -1 1/4. So what would be fair costs for 2 and 3 phases?

 

2) Let's say characters buy 2 extra speed with the limitation "reloading only", that means I have two fixed phases that I can only use for that purpose, not e.g. 4 phases from which I could only use two for reloading, right?

 

3) Regarding the previous item, does "reloading only" -1, and "reload or attack with bow" -1/2 sound correct?

 

I am not any kind of gun expert, but I have read and viewed quite a bit about reloading older weapons. Longbows, crossbows and breech loaders seems like an odd combination as muzzle loaders were more contemporary with bows and arrows, but, that aside, there are a couple of things that I would want to deal with.

 

1. What do you mean by 'realistic'?

You will not find data that agrees on how fast you can shoot a longbow:

http://www.archers.org/default.asp?section=History&page=longbow

http://www.pomian.demon.co.uk/longbow.htm

If we take 10 arrows per minute as a reasonable starting point, that is 2 per turn for a trained archer, so what is your campaign average SPD? If trained archers should be SPD 4, then you need an extra phase, if they are closer to SPD 2 then you might consider a full phase, or extra segment.

 

Equally:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider-Enfield

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Model_1865

So breech loaders are about the same fire/reload speed as a bow and arrow, maybe slightly slower, but it depends on model and mechanism.

 

And:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_crossbows

This suggests that a single crossbowman can manage about 3 shots per minute, or about one every 1.5 to 2 turns! Even 'Takes a full turn to reload' is probably too quick.

 

2. Should reload speed be SPD dependent?

I would say probably not. Reloading is a skill, rather than something based on raw SPD and there are upper limits that you can reach, that are probably not dependent on SPD at all. A combat-wimp librarian with SPD 1 can probably train themselves to load and shoot a crossbow as fast as a hardened soldier. OTOH, this is Hero and we do have a SPD table, so you may want to allow players to use it. If you DO, however, say that a breech loader takes an extra phase and a crossbow takes an extra turn, you will find that SPD only matters for people using guns and bows: crossbows will not be affected by SPD, which does not seem right, if SPD really is a factor.

 

3. Do you want some people to be able to shoot faster than others?

If this is an important detail, then use a skill and a house rule. You could use 'Fast Draw', or a custom 'Reload' skill. House rule that you can shoot bows and fire muzzle loaders at a rate of 1 shot per turn and crossbows at the rate of 1 shot per 3 turns, if you have familiarity with those weapons. You can go faster if you make a skill roll: for every 2 points you make the roll by you can shoot one phase faster, up to a maximum of your SPD, so a SPD 3 archer can shoot once per turn, but if he makes a Fast Draw roll by 2, he can shoot and only has to wait 2 turns before he can shoot again, not 3 (so he could shoot on segment 4 and segment 12). If he can make the roll by 4 or more, then he can shoot every phase he has.

 

For crossbows it could be 1 phase faster per point, rather than per 2 points.

 

"Realistically", if that is what you want, create a custom perk 'Trained Bowman/Gunman/Crossbowman' for (say, arbitrarily) 3 to 5 points. Set a rate of fire (independent of SPD) for a 'competent' user and a better rate for a 'trained' user, so the whole thing is both SPD and skill roll independent. When who fires first is actually important, use the normal order of combat rules.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

Another consideration regarding rate of fire for a muzzle loader is preparedness. A powder horn and flint and a bag of balls was slower than a trained soldier with a bag of powder filled cartridgesand a case of percussion caps positioned for easy access. The civil war soldier and the revolutionary war soldier were very different in regards to speed of loading, simply based on these combat multipliers.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

My personal experience concurs with Sean's research. My dad is an excellent archer and could accurately fire a recurve at around one arrow every 5 seconds. At my best I fired one arrow every 7-8 seconds. My civil war reenactor friends can put an accurate round down range at a top speed of 4-5 rounds a minute when kitted out for maximum efficiency. My revolutionary war reenactors average 3 per minute at best.

[mhd]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

Thanks for all the answers (and questions). Let me clarify my target weaponry a bit. Crossbows probably won't be a big factor, so whether it takes a few turns or a whole minute will hardly matter in this game. Anything within that range will turn it into a fire-and-forget weapon for the players, especially considering that there will be faster loading guns available, with at least equal damage.

 

As for bows, I'm mostly talking about heavy longbows, i.e. anything that your average fantasy PC expecting highly armored foes is likely to use. For that, the default rate of fire looked a bit high to me, and Fantasy Hero actually does have suggestions for slowing things down a bit. On the other hand, I'm pretty new to HERO and keep forgetting that a baseline assumption of SPD 2 quickly puts things in a more reasonable time frame. Even if we say that a highly trained longbowman is SPD 3, I would say that both an extra phase or just a full phase probably won't stretch things too far (if at all).

 

From a game play perspective, I would like to see three stages of capability: The more or less "untrained" user who might have the strength for it, but not the rapid firing drill. Then there's the competent soldier, able to sustain a pretty decent (possibly unaimed) rate of fire during stressful conditions. And finally the "heroic" side of things, i.e. a PC who paid some points specifically for longbow use.

And I'm not sure if I want to start out with multiple attacks for the latter, so slowing things down for the "normal" case seemed a good option.

 

Now about the guns: This specific campaign is set in the "Iron Kingdoms", a somewhat steampunkish fantasy. Gunpowder is alchemical and ignites by combining two components. This is done by puncturing a divider, so we've got something similar to a Dreyse needle gun. Most drawings seem to indicate a break action, similar to modern shotguns. Ammunition is contained in a silk/paper pouch, and leaves some residue in the barrel. I'm not sure whether the break action should cock the gun or manual activation of the firing pin is necessary – or whether that matters at all in game terms. In the end, I imagine the speed to be about the same as a shotgun, plus cleaning out the gunk and making sure that the ammo packet has a snug fit.

 

As a game play consequence, I wouldn't mind if the rate of fire is no more than half that of a bow, assuming PCs with the same point investments. Maybe even a bit more, as this is alleviated by being able to carry more than one firearm ready to fire, e.g. a brace of pistols. On the other hand, I could imagine trading some saved time by cleaning the gun more quickly with an activation roll. (Although I'm not a big fan of adding rolls to combat, which is probably why I went with Limited SPD in my original post and not with Fast Draw)

[Christopher]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

The general basis should be, that the longer the reload the higher the damage (after armor).

Crossbows were slow and had a shorter range, but they had two advantages: Easier to train people, better at damaging armored foes.

 

Same goes for firearms, they packed so much punch that they almost ignored armor (or at least reduced the effectiveness under the point where it was feasible to equipt your army with it).

[Tom Carman]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

You might also want to distinguish between heavy crossbows which need a mechanism to crank back the cord, and light crossbows which use a cocking lever. There would be a considerable difference in both penetration and firing speed.

[mhd]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

The general basis should be, that the longer the reload the higher the damage (after armor).

Crossbows were slow and had a shorter range, but they had two advantages: Easier to train people, better at damaging armored foes.

 

Same goes for firearms, they packed so much punch that they almost ignored armor (or at least reduced the effectiveness under the point where it was feasible to equipt your army with it).

That's a rather simplified view of history, never mind that it really doesn't help a lot (unless one would create a generalized dmg die == phases rule similar to the fixed PD/weight ratio of fantasy armor…).

 

I'm not too hung up about the realism. I think in the end it's mostly about the arrows/bullets/strike ratio for me.

 

You might also want to distinguish between heavy crossbows which need a mechanism to crank back the cord' date=' and light crossbows which use a cocking lever. There would be a considerable difference in both penetration and firing speed.[/quote']

 

Yes, there's quite a difference between a hand-pulled wooden self bow and a steel arbalest operated with a windlass or cranequin. But as I wrote above, basically anything beyond pulling it by hand makes the crossbow a once-per-combat weapon, so I don't need to make detailed tables for that. Never mind that beyond a certain stage, there's no difference in HERO limitation values anyway, and I expect PCs who don't want muscle-powered weapons to get guns anyway.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

Thanks for all the answers (and questions). Now about the guns: This specific campaign is set in the "Iron Kingdoms"' date=' a somewhat steampunkish fantasy. Gunpowder is alchemical and ignites by combining two components. This is done by puncturing a divider, so we've got something similar to a Dreyse needle gun. Most drawings seem to indicate a break action, similar to modern shotguns. Ammunition is contained in a silk/paper pouch, and leaves some residue in the barrel. I'm not sure whether the break action should cock the gun or manual activation of the firing pin is necessary – or whether that matters at all in game terms. In the end, I imagine the speed to be about the same as a shotgun, plus cleaning out the gunk and making sure that the ammo packet has a snug fit.[/quote']

 

Ah. I'm familiar with the (fantasy) weapon in question. The design always sounded to me like a needle gun and the weapon would most likely be single action and manual cock. That being said, a trained solider could put about 10-12 rounds downrange accurately in a minute with a needle gun, so, that's your benchmark. A round every 5-6 seconds. For a joe normal, with a SPD of 2, that's every active phase, someone who is faster would likely get off more shots.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

Yes' date=' there's quite a difference between a hand-pulled wooden self bow and a steel arbalest operated with a windlass or cranequin. But as I wrote above, basically anything beyond pulling it by hand makes the crossbow a once-per-combat weapon, so I don't need to make detailed tables for that. Never mind that beyond a certain stage, there's no difference in HERO limitation values anyway, and I expect PCs who don't want muscle-powered weapons to get guns anyway.[/quote']

 

As a general rule I would pass over the crossbow. They are very much a transition weapon from the bow to the rifle. Unless you are dealing with large numbers of troops fielding them (like the Chinese did in firing lines) or as a specialty cavalry unit, it was seldom the weapon of choice for a lone bowman. Many fantasy games include weapons that may be appropriate alone, but seldom concurrently. Darts, slings, javelins, longbows, crossbows, and longarms are unlikely to exist side by side, because some technology supplants other technology.

 

But that's just my two cents.

[mhd]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

Yeah, fantasy is generally all over the place, I can't count the number of setting that had Vikings alongside Renaissance knights and fencers… Although weird things do happen. If I recall correctly, slings were used up to the Romans, then not at all for quite a while, and suddenly emerged in the 30 years' war again. This only gets worse once you add tribal societes and/or races into the mix…

 

In my specific case, crossbows certainly will be there. Steam-/Clockwork-Punk has a penchant for everything mechanical, and that includes crossbows. But there's little need of detailed reloading rules for those, as (in my experience) they tend to fall into two extreme categories: Big Friggin' Crossbows (BFX) and "surprise a la sleeve", i.e. tricky hidden devices. The latter tend to have a very low damage, basically in the knife/shuriken range, easily reloaded, and you can just handwave the BFX's to be reloaded outside of combat (or "roughly a minute" for really long engagements). If I ever need to have a detailed Min/Max STR + reload time breakdown for everything needed for a medieval siege engagement, I'll get the "Deadly Spring" article from Pyramid magazine. And a bottle of scotch.

 

And you're right, considering the firing rate of the Dreyse and Chassepot, it seems that adding too much time won't be fair. It looks like it should be possible to fire it every phase, although I'd probably say that's with a Fast Draw roll (giving a 5-10 rounds/minute rate of fire for your SPD 2 normal).

[MisterVimes]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

The clockwork setting is a natural for crossbows -- but they'd be super keen crossbows and I'd give them the same rate of fire as the longarms, because a magical/steamy clockwork windlass/cocking mechanism would make them faster. Then I'd just scale the damage. If people are running around in Silly Iron Suits™ then I'd give crossbows Armor Piercing and Penetrating/AP on the guns. That's assuming you want to simulate what guns will do versus Crossbows. It's not perfect, but it beats a guy in 8 PD plate bouncing bullets and quarrels.

 

That may be farther afield than you wanted to go, but there it is!

[mhd]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

While there might be pretty weird enhanced crossbows out there, I'll stick with pretty normal ones most of the time. I'm seeing the crossbow as the "civilian", somewhat outdated alternative to the firearms, which are just barely not military-only anymore. Somewhat like full-auto vs. semi-auto in the US. This includes backyards mechanics doing "saturday night special" crossbows.

 

Damage-wise, the default doesn't look too bad to me. With some aiming (haymaker), heavy x-bows and longbows are DC 9 or 10, quite likely to penetrate heavy plate - probably more than they deserve to.

 

As for firearms, I'm a bit confused. Fantasy Hero has them as pretty low damage, but AP, whereas I've seen higher-damage versions (non-AP) elsewhere. Those looked like they were statted strictly by caliber, ignoring that a .50 cal black powder weapon doesn't exactly equal a .50 Desert Eagle…

Then again, bullets look like they are about the Minie/Chassepot level, which are said to have caused some horrible wounds. I'm probably going for 2d6/3d6 for a military pistol/rifle. Armor piercing, yes, but on the other hand, quite a lot of Hardened plate (i.e. armor of proof).

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

My personal experience concurs with Sean's research. My dad is an excellent archer and could accurately fire a recurve at around one arrow every 5 seconds. At my best I fired one arrow every 7-8 seconds. My civil war reenactor friends can put an accurate round down range at a top speed of 4-5 rounds a minute when kitted out for maximum efficiency. My revolutionary war reenactors average 3 per minute at best.

 

sounds about right, from my archery and reenactment experiences. My top speed using horn, flask and cap was about 2 shots a minute, firing from a set position with my gear laid out. Sparky, my chief gunner, was able to top speed drill at around 4 shots a minute with his matchlock caliver, but only until he ran through his bandoleer of pre-measured charges (apostles, in period slang), then dropped to around 2 as well. Most of our less experienced gunmen loaded considerably slower.

[Christopher]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

Many fantasy games include weapons that may be appropriate alone' date=' but seldom concurrently. Darts, slings, javelins, longbows, crossbows, and longarms are unlikely to exist side by side, because some technology supplants other technology. [/quote']

That only natural, as most Fantasy Worlds tend to have cultures in very different stages of development. Anything from the Nomad Hunter/gatherer to early Renesaince can be in one world.

Adding magic and mystical creatures to the mix, might mean even bronze weapons have a niche (being easy to enchant by the village shaman).

 

Yeah' date=' fantasy is generally all over the place, I can't count the number of setting that had Vikings alongside Renaissance knights and fencers… Although weird things do happen. If I recall correctly, slings were used up to the Romans, then not at all for quite a while, and suddenly emerged in the 30 years' war again.[/quote']

It's one thing to built something. Another to maintain it under field conditions, maybe with limited supply. A strong street and train infrastucture hasn't existed before WW I, and using airplanes for regular field supply is rather new as well.

 

Regarding Crossbow in Steampunk:

Vimes and I already pointed it out: Some small technical refinement (that never existed in real world) can give some older weapons an edge, even if superior weapons are around. An autoloading mechanism or a bowstring immune to water may allow the "old but trusty" weapons to outshine the most moderns stuff in a lot of situations.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

My FH setting is roughly 16th C in tech level, so guns are a fairly common item.

I handled them as such...

Start with size categories rather than strict by-caliber lists. Light (4DC base), Medium (5DC) and Heavy (6DC) works best for me.

base forms are pistol, long pistol, arquebus (carbine, in modern terms, or horse gun), shoulder arms (Caliver, most rifles, later style muskets) and brace guns (Early forked rest muskets, wall guns, jezzails). These all modify OCV and Range Mod, and longer guns add to base DC as well.

Use the boostable charges rules to reflect the ability to overcharge the chamber

Guns are not AP, but the real weapon/armor limits are used to for a tech scale system, of sorts. basic fantasy armor is assumed to have 1/2 effect versus firearms unless built to proof. "Proof" armor is another form of Fine armor from the FH system for improved quality gear.

I give all early firearms +1 stun, as they tend to use big slow moving lead slugs.

Early firearms lost power fast, and all period texts on gunnery note the various ranges at which you can expect varying levels of effectiveness.

So I give all black power guns a DC boost with the limited by range limit, so they do greater damage at closer range. Pistols get +2DC, so their point blank is only 8m, arquebus through shoulder arms get +4DC(16 m), and the big guns get +6DC, giving them extra damage out to 32m.

 

I give fire arms "Requires a Skill roll" instead of a flat activation roll, because they are really very subject to skill and situational modifiers. The skill roll is made during loading, because that is usually when things go wrong, but you find out what side effects you've won when you pull the trigger. I've only had one bad black powder accident myself, Sparky has blown hisself up twice... but like riding a motorcycle, if you use BP in any sort of abundance, you expect that every once in a while it'll try and bite you. If you blow the roll by more than 3 points, the side effects happen while loading (Should'a blown all the embers outta your pan), 3 or less and you get some variation of Jammed, Hangfire, or Boom (full point blank DC of the weapon including any overcharge bonuses, Reduced Penetration as your weapon turns into shrapnel)

 

Superior grade powder adds +1DC and gives a +1 to the skill roll. Bad powder subtracts -1DC and -1 to the skill roll (or more if it's in really bad shape)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

That only natural, as most Fantasy Worlds tend to have cultures in very different stages of development. Anything from the Nomad Hunter/gatherer to early Renesaince can be in one world.

Adding magic and mystical creatures to the mix, might mean even bronze weapons have a niche (being easy to enchant by the village shaman).

 

 

It's one thing to built something. Another to maintain it under field conditions, maybe with limited supply. A strong street and train infrastucture hasn't existed before WW I, and using airplanes for regular field supply is rather new as well.

 

Regarding Crossbow in Steampunk:

Vimes and I already pointed it out: Some small technical refinement (that never existed in real world) can give some older weapons an edge, even if superior weapons are around. An autoloading mechanism or a bowstring immune to water may allow the "old but trusty" weapons to outshine the most moderns stuff in a lot of situations.

 

A steam driven flywheel system with an autoloader would make a credible version of the full auto dart throwers from Heavy Metal

[MisterVimes]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

While there might be pretty weird enhanced crossbows out there, I'll stick with pretty normal ones most of the time. I'm seeing the crossbow as the "civilian", somewhat outdated alternative to the firearms, which are just barely not military-only anymore. Somewhat like full-auto vs. semi-auto in the US. This includes backyards mechanics doing "saturday night special" crossbows.

 

Damage-wise, the default doesn't look too bad to me. With some aiming (haymaker), heavy x-bows and longbows are DC 9 or 10, quite likely to penetrate heavy plate - probably more than they deserve to.

 

As for firearms, I'm a bit confused. Fantasy Hero has them as pretty low damage, but AP, whereas I've seen higher-damage versions (non-AP) elsewhere. Those looked like they were statted strictly by caliber, ignoring that a .50 cal black powder weapon doesn't exactly equal a .50 Desert Eagle…

Then again, bullets look like they are about the Minie/Chassepot level, which are said to have caused some horrible wounds. I'm probably going for 2d6/3d6 for a military pistol/rifle. Armor piercing, yes, but on the other hand, quite a lot of Hardened plate (i.e. armor of proof).

 

If you're tricking out the crossbows, then I'd change the ROF to every other phase for the sake of balance (otherwise no one will want to use one). The default damage will be fine if you are assuming superior steam/alchemy armor.

 

For the guns, I'd balance the accuracy with the damage with the penetration. If you're going with the higher damage, then I'd ignore the AP in favor of Penetrating. Non-rifled weapons get an ocv penalty and lower range. Don't forget shot/blunderbuss style cones as well for grape shot and the occasional dragonflame mystical alchemy rounds just for fun.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

My FH setting is roughly 16th C in tech level, so guns are a fairly common item.

I handled them as such...

SNIP

 

I give fire arms "Requires a Skill roll" instead of a flat activation roll, because they are really very subject to skill and situational modifiers. The skill roll is made during loading, because that is usually when things go wrong, but you find out what side effects you've won when you pull the trigger. I've only had one bad black powder accident myself, Sparky has blown hisself up twice... but like riding a motorcycle, if you use BP in any sort of abundance, you expect that every once in a while it'll try and bite you. If you blow the roll by more than 3 points, the side effects happen while loading (Should'a blown all the embers outta your pan), 3 or less and you get some variation of Jammed, Hangfire, or Boom (full point blank DC of the weapon including any overcharge bonuses, Reduced Penetration as your weapon turns into shrapnel)

 

Superior grade powder adds +1DC and gives a +1 to the skill roll. Bad powder subtracts -1DC and -1 to the skill roll (or more if it's in really bad shape)

 

Great suggestions. Before this is over we'll have written a AlchemyPunk (oh how I loathe the use of that word) guidebook. Grade A response. Repped.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

I am not sure if this is the 'right' way to do it, but I tend to think of bows as single shot weapons with plenty of single shot clips.

 

That would mean that someone could generally shoot a bow, then has to take a full phase to reload before being able to shoot it again, so they could shoot every other phase and could also get in a half phase move every other phase. If they have Fast Draw they could shoot then reload as a half phase action then shoot again, so they could shoot every phase if they did not want to do anything else, like move.

 

You could apply the same sort of logic to breech-loaders, but use the 'increased reload time' to make them take 2 full phases (presumably one full phase to reload with quick draw): of course if they are like double barrelled shotguns, the 'clip' could be 2 shots - I do not know the setting, sorry .

 

I would make a crossbow a full turn to reload, using that sort of progression.

 

This may not be accurate or what you want but it is a nice enough solution within the rules and gives different fire rates for different weapons and allows trained fighters to shoot more quickly, which all sounds good.

[mhd]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

If you're tricking out the crossbows' date=' then I'd change the ROF to every other phase for the sake of balance (otherwise no one will want to use one). The default damage will be fine if you are assuming superior steam/alchemy armor. [/quote']

 

Tricked out crossbows will be the exception - like I wrote above, guns will almost always be the better choice, if you can afford them. The way I read it, the alchemical gunpowder is basically smokeless and less prone to fail in damp conditions (and you don't even need a spark to ignite it). The only advantage they have over guns is that they're pretty silent. That, the price and the lack of training/strength requirements will make them popular for criminals and self-defense. I don't have a problem at all if they're not the primary choice for PCs…

 

Bows are generally even worse off, as nobody is seriously training with them anymore for war purposes. Sure, you've got enough hunters with the light variants, but those won't fare well against armor. The setting has a few nomadic horse archers, but well, barbarians…

We do have a tournament archer in the group, which is why they're relevant for this thread.

 

I do like the skill roll suggestion for reloading guns. Strangely enough, this basically gets things back again to the D20 rules of the setting, so I can even lift some skill penalties for the various guns, i.e. make things harder for outdated weapons and easier for "boutique" rifles. I'd just combine it with Fast Draw, by accepting a skill penalty for faster reload times. A tradeoff between reliability and speed…

 

So right now I think I'm going with longbows - full phase (Fast Draw 1/2), and guns - full phase, maybe two phases for some guns. If both require skill rolls, then I'd guess that bows still have a higher rate of fire, as the side effects of missing your roll aren't nearly as bad in the worst case. So it's still worth it to carry a brace of pistols, have double barrels of buy one of those new-fangled pepperbox pistols (the military just started to have cylinder-fed rifles).

 

I have to jigger the damage values around a bit, though. HERO longbows have very high chance of penetrating plate, even for normal users. I'm aiming for something where you'd have to be a bit better to compete against modern full plate, so guns have the advantage there. 2d6 (+CSL/maneuver) vs. PD 8 makes this a bit harder on me…

[MisterVimes]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

Clearly we've all gone very far from the original question (which has been answered ad nauseum) and perhaps we've drifted into a different area of advice. You clearly had a vision (as you should) of what weapons are prevalent within that vision and then, perhaps, we can help you bounce around ideas as to why you have arrived at that state. Perhaps a general view of how the world works and the internal logic. Surely logical justifications for why bows are less common than crossbows and the status/effectiveness/mystique of firearms can be found in the world building elements going into the world. We (as a community) are very good at brainstorming and collaboration and this discussion has breached Rate of Fire and dovetailed directly into that process.

 

I could have said that shorter. What's your vision?

[Christopher]

Re: Ranged weapon reload times

 

I am not sure if this is the 'right' way to do it, but I tend to think of bows as single shot weapons with plenty of single shot clips.

 

That would mean that someone could generally shoot a bow, then has to take a full phase to reload before being able to shoot it again, so they could shoot every other phase and could also get in a half phase move every other phase. If they have Fast Draw they could shoot then reload as a half phase action then shoot again, so they could shoot every phase if they did not want to do anything else, like move.

For most of the "get arrows/bullets down the Range" examples, you can't forget that they might include the Brace and Set Maneuver:

At least in 6E:

Brace halfes your DCV, for +2 Range PSL but is a 0-phase action.

Set takes a Full Phase for +1 OCV.

 

Aimed Shot will also likely be a haymaker, easily bringing down the ROF to 1 Shot /2 phases, with delayed phase.

 

You could apply the same sort of logic to breech-loaders' date=' but use the 'increased reload time' to make them take 2 full phases (presumably one full phase to reload with quick draw): of course if they are like double barrelled shotguns, the 'clip' could be 2 shots - I do not know the setting, sorry .[/quote']

I would guess Boostable Charges are an option, as would be a small Multipower with one (the bigger) slot taking extra Charges Limitation.