VPP in FH (AGAIN)

[jallen0002]

Hello everyone. I read the (dated) thread on the VPP in a FH setting and wanted to touch on a few salient points of the conversation to see what everyone thinks.

 

I have a few players who are familiar with AD&D (2e and 3e) so I want my magic system to be familiar to them. HERO gives me this flexibility. Basically I want a Vancian magic system in FH.

 

I think Killer Shrike hit some really good points that got lost in the general arguing back and forth.

 

Obviously if we are emulating a Vancian system it is most definitely not a Cosmic power pool or anything of the sort.

 

So here goes my understanding of Killer Shrike's VPP for a Vancian system:

 

You have a VPP.. of oh lets say 60 active point capability and 120 real point capability. (120 REAL points??!#$) 120 real points is a lot most people would say. The pool is obviously limited to arcane magic only (IE: Wizard Spells). You can't change the spells without studying a bulky spell book (Obviously not happening in combat)... and the spells in the VPP couldn't be changed for 24 hours after commited to the VPP.

 

So lets say we have this spell (From Killer Shrike's site): Fireball III: Energy Blast 6d6 (vs. ED), Area Of Effect (3" Radius; +1) (60 Active Points); 1 Charges (-2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Concentration 1/2 DCV (-1/4), Extra Time Delayed Phase (-1/4)

 

Real cost of that spell is 15 points, but it has ONE charge. That means that with 120 REAL points in the VPP and 60 AP you could have that power in there eight times. (Does it even work like that with a power that has charges?). Well anyway if it were a AD&D2e or 3e spell slot that would be it.

 

The only fault I can see is that with 20 points I can have a 480 REAL point pool, so obviously there needs to be a better metric for increasing the real cost part of the pool.. some sort of linear algorithm that doesn't double the pool nearly so quickly. So with a 120 point pool I could cast a 3 real cost spell like 40 times in a day (essentially as many times as I want.. but I can only do a really powerful spell 8 times).. as long as we follow the rule that all spells have 1 charge and you can add a spell to the VPP "multiple" times.

 

If we had the same rules (Studying to change spells, only being able to change spells every 24 hours or so.. limitations on the control basically) combined with all spells having 1 charge.. then you would be able to memorize your best damage spell (if you had a 60 point pool) four times and have NO room for anything else. Or you could do your best damage spell twice and have room for a bunch of utility spells that probably wont have much effect on the game With all the other restrictions on the magic system a VPP of this sort would essentially not give the mages much power at all. They would run out of steam before the combat really even got started.

 

Im not sure what metric would be best for increasing the Real Points of the pool, but it seems obvious with a system like the one outlined the real points need to be higher. Anyhow I just wanted to see how people felt about this system. Mages are obviously limited to what spells they have managed to learn as well. And in a HIgh Fantasy world magic spells are closely guarded by other wizards so learning them is a challenge.

 

At any rate, I would like to hear others weigh in on this type of VPP and see if it is still deemed to powerful, and if so some constructive comments on what could balance it out instead of just saying "NO", or point out why this system would never work. I believe in logical arguments, not "I have been doing HERO for 20 years and all of my other friends with as much experience in HERO would agree with me."

 

Thanks

 

Jeremy

[Killer Shrike]

Hi,Here is the link to the relevant discussion of the Real Cost doubling Im using:Magic, Significant Rules ChangesI think it balances out in context. Those who dont think so are encouraged to find some other method that works for them; in the case of people converting over from xD&D, the actual spells per day charts can be used wholesale.

High Fantasy HERO Website

An alternate method is to simply ignore the Real Cost limit of VPP's, and use the actual "Spells per Day" charts from the source material.

The reason I dont like to do this is because it forces you to constantly reverse engineer the HERO System characters points to a caster level equivalency, and this isnt always a straightforward thing to do since the HERO System is (obviously) a class-less and level-less progression system. More importantly, I dont like class and level structures (one of the main things that drove me to convert my AD&D campaigns to the HERO System all those years ago), and Ive taken pains to not involve the class and level concept in my content aside from the conversion documents. Its set up so that you can use the class & level concepts if you want, but the default assumption is that you are not. Personally, I prefer using the Real Costs and just extending the RC limit, but there are other ways obviously. One of the things I like about using the RC limit (and expanding it without expanding the AP limit of the VPP) is that it adds another layer of decision making to spell selection. While the AP determines the "Spell Level", the RC of spells will vary. Thus a 90 AP "5th Level" Spell with a RC of 17 has a slight advantage over one w/ a RC of 30 because it takes up less points in the VPP, but conversely is more heavily Limited.Anyhoo, the key thing is, the entire Magic System presented can be jettisoned and replaced by a given GM without disturbing the other content.

[Alcamtar]

How about:

 

All spells must take Extra Time (5 min) and Delayed Effect

VPP has limitation: "powers only change in morning, change requires spellbook" (-2 or so)

 

Finally, since "active spells" limit for Delayed is GM option,

 

Spell level = 1/15 active points

# spells of a given spell level is INT/5

 

So, a wizard with 18 INT and a 50 point pool can have

4 spells of 1-15 AP;

4 spells of 16-30 AP;

4 spells of 31-45 AP, and

4 spells of 46-50 AP

active at any one given time.

 

A wizard *can* re-cast spells during the day if he has time, but he can still only carry so many at once. If you don't want re-casting allowed, just add additional limit to the VPP.

 

Mike

[Killer Shrike]

I dont like Delayed Effect personally because its behavior changes based upon how many spells you can prepare. So your "Fireball" Spell has 60 AP, but if youve doubled the number of Delayed Effect Spells you can have active it gets an additional +1/4 Advantage and its AP fluctuates.

 

This is a book-keeping nightmare IMO.

 

Also, bcs of the way Delayed Effect works it heavily minimizes the impact of most Limitations.

 

 

However, these things may not bother some GMs and Delayed Effect is certainly a way to do it.

[Markdoc]

I have nothing against VPPs in FH (indeed, I use them in my own game).

 

Having said that, I absolutely would not, ever, under any circumstances whatsoever, use the RC method.

 

Just so we're clear about this

 

You have the reason in your own post "with 20 points I can have a 480 REAL point pool"

 

ugh, shudder.

 

From my experience, mages with VPPs even when limited to "learned spells only" can be very powerul, although that power is gained through flexibility rather than raw power. This approach just gives them even more - for free. I simply can't see the need, or the point. If you want more powerful PCs, give them more points. At least, that way they remain balanced against each other.

 

cheers, Mark

[Alcamtar]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

I dont like Delayed Effect personally because its behavior changes based upon how many spells you can prepare. So your "Fireball" Spell has 60 AP, but if youve doubled the number of Delayed Effect Spells you can have active it gets an additional +1/4 Advantage and its AP fluctuates.

 

This is a book-keeping nightmare IMO.

 

Only if you allow it. The GM sets the limit, and players shouldn't be allowed to change or exceed that limit whether the rules say they can or not.

 

If the GM wants double the number of spells available at once, he can say so, but personally I'd disallow anything other than the base +1/4 modifier.

 

But yeah if you allow it, then you have to have multiple versions for every spell depending on how many an individual mage is able to delay. Bleh.

 

Mike

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Markdoc I have nothing against VPPs in FH (indeed, I use them in my own game).Having said that, I absolutely would not, ever, under any circumstances whatsoever, use the RC method.Just so we're clear about this :DYou have the reason in your own post "with 20 points I can have a 480 REAL point pool"ugh, shudder.

That is a misconception of my intent. It is suggested (and as implemented by me), that the number of doublings available be limited to Character Points.

High Fantasy HERO Website

DOUBLE REAL COST ADDER EXPLANATION The most significant change is an alteration to the way Variable Power Pools work for Magic VPPs. Normally, by the base HERO System mechanics, the Pool of a VPP serves as a limit to the Active Points of each power in the VPP, and also as the limit to the Real Cost total of all powers in the VPP. The magic system I settled on for this Conversion alters this behavior. The number of Real Points available in a Magic VPP can be doubled by the use of an Adder on the Control Cost. The reason for doing this is that it was otherwise impossible to fit an equivalent number of Spells into a Magic VPP as found in the source material. A GM should excercise some control over this Adder if they are concerned about a character potentially having very many low level Spells per day. One control mechanism is to limit the purchase of this Adder to the character's total points / 125. This allows the purchase of the first doubling when starting (if starting at the default 125 point total from 50 Base Points and up to 75 points from personal Disadvantages), and again at 250, 375, and 500 points respectively. Also keep in mind that the purpose of allowing this Adder is to allow a character to mimic the "X 1st level, Y 2nd level, Z 3rd level" trope of the xD&D magic system, not just to allow characters to load up on their biggest Spells -- though GM's prefering a more freeform approach may not mind. Ultimately, if players are abusing this privelege in the perception of an individual GM, then that GM should take steps to correct the situation until they are more comfortable with the situation.

Thus, to have 4 doublings the character would be over 500 character points in the first place.

Originally posted by Markdoc From my experience, mages with VPPs even when limited to "learned spells only" can be very powerul, although that power is gained through flexibility rather than raw power. This approach just gives them even more - for free. I simply can't see the need, or the point.

Without this method, a Spellcaster can only have 5 or 6 Spells preparred at higher levels as the VPP AP limit doesnt scale fast enough to account for the RC requirements of larger AP spells.So for example a Wizard w/ a 30 AP Active Pool is also limited to 30 RC in 1 Charge spells:Ray of Frost I Provider Source Killer Shrike PHB3e Type SubType Category Arcane Wizardry Conjuration, Creation, Cold RealCost ActiveCost SpellLevel 3 15 0 Spell Energy Blast 3d6 (vs. ED) (15 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), Concentration 1/2 DCV (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Requires A Magic Skill vs Spell Resistance Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll, RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests -1/4) Arrow Ward Provider Source Killer Shrike NEW Type SubType Category Arcane Wizardry Abjuration RealCost ActiveCost SpellLevel 3 15 0 Spell Missile Deflection (Arrows, Slings, Etc.), Lingering up to 1 Turn (+1/2) (15 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (-1 1/2), Incantations (Complex; -1/2), Instant (-1/2), Gestures (Complex; -1/2), Visible (-1/4), Will Not Work Against Heavy Missiles (-1/4) Mage Armor Provider Source Killer Shrike PHB3e Type SubType Category Arcane Wizardry Conjuration, Creation, Force RealCost ActiveCost SpellLevel 9 30 1 Spell Armor (5 PD/5 ED), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 6 Hours (+0), Hardened (x2; +1/2), Difficult To Dispel (x4 Active Points) (+1/2) (30 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate Constant or Persistent Power, -3/4), OIF (-1/2), Visible (-1/4), Concentration 1/2 DCV (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) Summon Monster I Provider Source Killer Shrike PHB3e Type SubType Category Arcane Wizardry Conjuration, Summoning RealCost ActiveCost SpellLevel 6 30 1 Spell Summon 75-point Fantasy Creature, Expanded Class of Beings Very Limited Group (+1/4), Amicable Devoted (+3/4) (30 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), Extra Time (Extra Phase, Delayed Phase, -1), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Concentration 1/2 DCV (-1/4) Obscuring Smoke Provider Source Killer Shrike NEW Type SubType Category Arcane Wizardry Conjuration, Creation RealCost ActiveCost SpellLevel 9 29 1 Spell CE 8" radius, -4 to Sight Group PER Rolls (29 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, Delayed Phase, -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Does Not Work In High Winds Or Rain (-1/4) Which works out to 5 actual castings per day. This is very close to the 3/1 Spells Per Day of a 3e 1st Level Wizard, and depending on the RC of the spells chosen will hover above or below this. For this privelege the Wizard paid 34 points (with the Control Cost worked in), plus the requisite skills which in this case would be at least 6 points if the Wizard just knew Conjuration and Abjuration, but more likely all 8 Wizard School Skills which works out to 19 points with Scholar.For that same 34+19= 53 points a warrior type could buy +10 STR, +1 DEX, +5 BODY, +5 CON, Deadly Blow +1d6 KA, WF: Common Melee, Combat Luck 3/3, and +1 HtH. All of which is usable all the timeOver the next 30 Character Points earned, which takes around 8-12 sessions of play, the Wizard Character puts another 17 into his VPP to get it up to 45 AP, and buys a +1 Wizardry Skills for 3 points to keep his Skill rolls up to par. That leaves 10 character points for other things. However, the additional 15 RC extention on the number of Powers in the VPP allows the addition of:Sleep Provider Source Killer Shrike PHB3e Type SubType Category Arcane Wizardry Enchantment, Mind-Affecting, Compulsion RealCost ActiveCost SpellLevel 11 40 2 Spell Suppress STUN 1 1/2d6, Uncontrolled (+1/2), Area Of Effect (3" Radius; +1), Invisible Power Effects, Hide effects of Power (Fully Invisible, Hearing Group; +2 1/2) (40 Active Points); Not vs any creature with 350+ character points (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Phase, Only to Activate Constant or Persistent Power, -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Concentration 0 DCV (-1/2), Not vs Elvenkind (-1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4) Stay Thy Hand Provider Source Killer Shrike NEW Type SubType Category Arcane Wizardry Enchantment, Mind-Affecting, Compulsion RealCost ActiveCost SpellLevel 3 15 0 Spell +3 with DCV (15 Active Points); Only vs One Opponent (-1 1/2), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase, Delayed Phase, -3/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll, RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests Magic Skill vs Spell Resistance; -1/4) Leaving 1 point on the table that nothing fits into. Now the Wizard can cast 4/2/1, which is spot on with the Spells per day of a 3rd level Wizard in 3e.Over the next 30 Character Points earned the process repeats itself up to 60 AP. This is where the point of diminishing returns begins, where the RC of the higher AP powers is almost as much or exceeds the difference of the additional 15 Pool to gain access to that "Spell Level". Minor Mind Fugue Provider Source Killer Shrike PHB3e Type SubType Category Arcane Wizardry Enchantment, Mind-Affecting RealCost ActiveCost SpellLevel 15 60 3 Spell Ego Attack 6d6 ( Human class of minds) (60 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) Now the Wizard can cast 4/2/1/1 rather than 4/3/2/1. And will only get further behind. Additionally, "Specialist" Wizards are screwed from the get go as their 1 more per spell level benefit wont fit into the RC limits of their VPP. Just forget about it at higher levels -- a 20th level 3e Wizard can cast 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 Spells per day. "9th Level Spells" are equivalnced at 150 AP in my system, and the RCs vary widely but are generally between 26 and 60 RC, with the average somwhere around 40 RC per. 4*40 = 160 -- you cant get 4 "9th Level Spells" into a 150 point VPP, much less the 36 lesser level Spells indicated for a 3e Wizard.This is caused by the square model of VPPs whereby the AP limit also sets the RC limit and to raise one you have to raise the other. So if you want more smaller powers you are SOL -- youve got to pay for the capacity to also have bigger powers and the two dont scale well together.

Originally posted by Markdoc If you want more powerful PCs, give them more points. At least, that way they remain balanced against each other.cheers, Mark

Giving the characters more points so that the Spellcasters can have more spells doest really work out IMO -- the other professions are already quite deadly enough -- far more dangerous than Spell casters until the very highest elevation of points. The returns on feeding a VPP arent seen until around 70 Character Points or so are dumped into it, and even then doesnt start to really take off for another double handful of Character Points. The points that the Wizard or other Spellcaster puts into their VPP are more efficiently spent by weapon-wielders and skill based characters, whose abilities also generaly work all the time rather than once per day each.And further, giving more points to a VPP based character just results in a character able to cast bigger, more powerful spells when the intent is for them to be able to cast more lower AP spells. YMMV obviously, but IMO there is a huge difference between say a 60 AP unlimited VPP costing ~90 character points and a 60 point VPP that can only be composed of 1 charge powers and further limited and costed at ~68 character points. You dont get 60 AP Powers all day long -- you get 60 RC worth of Powers once per day. Thats a massive reduction in power, much less useful than the 22 point reduction on the Control Cost would indicate.However, ultimately whatever Magic System works for whichever GM and their play group is equally valid for that group so its all good.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Alcamtar

Only if you allow it. The GM sets the limit, and players shouldn't be allowed to change or exceed that limit whether the rules say they can or not.

 

If the GM wants double the number of spells available at once, he can say so, but personally I'd disallow anything other than the base +1/4 modifier.

 

But yeah if you allow it, then you have to have multiple versions for every spell depending on how many an individual mage is able to delay. Bleh.

 

Mike

I look at it the other way -- the only real benefit of Delayed Effect is to "float" or "rack" more spells than other methods might allow -- so if you dont allow the doubling you are missing out on the primary benefit of the advantage.

 

I just wish that Delayed Effect were handled more elegantly so as not to require monkeying with the Powers themselves to increase the total.

 

We're pushing 900 spells already, and will have around 1250 once Arcane Spells are finished alone, and then we start in on Divine Spells which will probably have around 1000 Spells when its all said and done. There's no way I would even contemplate tracking 2 or 3 versions per Spell just to account for Delayed Effect.

[Alcamtar]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

I look at it the other way -- the only real benefit of Delayed Effect is to "float" or "rack" more spells than other methods might allow -- so if you dont allow the doubling you are missing out on the primary benefit of the advantage.

 

Hmm, in my campaign Delayed Effect is mostly used for ritual spells. I am allowing huge VPPs, but controlling it (hopefully) by limiting fast cheap spells to INT/2. Spells from INT/2 to INT require extra time or expensive OAF, while spells from INT to INT+EGO can only be cast by ritual means. Spells whose real points exceed INT+EGO cannot be learned. Ritual means around an hour of casting time, but you can apply Delayed Effect and have a couple mega-spells prepared in advance. I'm limiting Delayed Effect to INT/5 and not allowing a x2 adder, so a couple of spells extra won't really make much difference.

 

We also have an END reserve that recharges daily, so delayed spells are still coming out of your daily allowance. You might carry them over from day to day and save a few END, but not enough to be a balance problem I think.

 

There's no way I would even contemplate tracking 2 or 3 versions per Spell just to account for Delayed Effect.

 

I don't mind too much. Players are likely to only have one or the other; and if INT goes up it's up to the player to research a faster version. Ain't my problem!

 

Mike

[Killer Shrike]

Dont have my book handy, but in the case of your Ritual + Delayed Effect implementation I think Trigger would do the same thing with less hassle.

[Alcamtar]

Aren't Delayed Effect and Trigger really the same thing with different names? The only real difference is that Delayed Effect has a "release at will" trigger and a limit on the number of delayed spells you can have at once. If your trigger is such that you can release it at will, then it is really a Delayed Effect.

 

Mike

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Alcamtar

Aren't Delayed Effect and Trigger really the same thing with different names? The only real difference is that Delayed Effect has a "release at will" trigger and a limit on the number of delayed spells you can have at once. If your trigger is such that you can release it at will, then it is really a Delayed Effect.

 

Mike

Missed this yesterday...

 

Yes, basically. Thats what I meant by using Trigger "with less hassle". There are subtle differences, but really Trigger is probably better if you arent using the doubling aspect of Delayed Effect. Trigger has no real limit on number of Triggered powers active-- its up to GM determination. Trigger doesnt fluctuate in cost either.

 

Thus it seems like Trigger does whatever Delayed Effect can do and is static. The GM sets a limit if he/she desires and you only need 1 version of each spell. Delayed Effect has some specific mentioning aimed at spells for managing slots, but really all of that could be lifted to Trigger if desired.

 

 

Then again, Ive never liked Delayed Effect, so Im biased

[Galadorn]

Re: VPP in FH (AGAIN)

 

As I said in another thread, I have a 100 point low fantasy, with some swashbuckling and high fantasy included. I make my spellcasters with a multipower of 20 points or more, buy a 5 pt. VPP - just for incidental magic, and augmenting effects.

 

I use this low fantasy VPP for things like Gandalf casting some enchantments on the treasure he and Bilbo hid; you know, not truly relevant to the story, but great for background. I've been trying to think of a way to make an undetectable, or less detectable treasure catch like Gandalf made, with just five points.

 

If you do it with a cosmetic transform, you can make the gold appear to be stone or something. Or you can transform the gold just for the effect of detects; in other words, while it is still gold, it detects, for all detects, as stone or dirt. If you dig it up you see the gold, and this breaks the enchantment, but just for the sake of detects, it's stone.

 

Secondly, you use a cosmetic transform on the ground you just dug up (1d6), to a normal grass, stone or whatever. Thirdly, you transform the magical gold to appear to be unmagical gold, so detect magics don't work.

 

What do people think?

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Alcamtar

Aren't Delayed Effect and Trigger really the same thing with different names? The only real difference is that Delayed Effect has a "release at will" trigger and a limit on the number of delayed spells you can have at once. If your trigger is such that you can release it at will, then it is really a Delayed Effect.

 

Mike

 

See? Hero says not to worry about the rules, but when it's player against player, or NPC against PC, you've got to have the rules to fall back on.