Building "Combat Stims" or "Pep Pills"

[psyber624]

Was creating a character last night and realized he was going to be a real END hog (likes his autofire this one does). Was looking for ways to handle this aspect without just buying TONS of END. I was thinking about some sort of "pill" or something he could take for a quick refresh or boost to his END when he needed it. Started looking at several options such as Healing or Aid but they all had major issues.

 

Then I thought about just buying +END with charges. But I am not sure how this would work RAW. Or even if it should.

 

1. Does it heal reduced END? or at the end of the phase (or when the charge expires if using continuing charges) would the loss of the boosted END disappear? Would I have to pay out of normal END if I spent any during that phase? (For instance, I have 60 END normally, i have spent 45 so I am at 15 right now. I pop a charge of +20 END then spend 10 END that phase. Phase ends, what is my current END now?

A.25 (the +20 "healed" my END and the healed END sticks around)

B.15 (The +20 is only good for this phase, and I spent 10 of it during the phase)

or C. 5 (I have to "pay back" the full 20 END when the charge expires, so this would only be of any use with continuing charges)

 

I am thinking B. personally. A. would be too powerful, C. probably too dangerous.

 

2. Is this even legal? It seems like it could easily be too powerful on its own, abusive even. Replace END with STUN and it just gets scary. Plus, this would seem to make charges an advantage instead of a limitation, since, if I am thinking about this correctly, I could spend multiple charges at once for increased effect (albeit for a limited time). If not, how would you buy a power like this? I mean this is HERO so it should be possible in some fashion. Really advantaged Healing? (25 Points per 1d6 Healing useable once a turn max, averaging 9 END per d6) That still requires an attack action and is so incredibly expensive you should just buy the insane amounts of END in the first place, (for reference, for the same price as the healing you can buy 125 END, more than the heal will give you over 13 turns of use, and never requiring you to use up an attack roll) You could also buy limited REC for a similar effect(but that's still not cost effective with REC being 5x as expensive as END)

 

 

Another weird option is buying it as an AID but using the "Increased Fade Rate" Limitation from APG 1, but in this case it would be more of an advantage than a limitation so that just feels wrong on so many levels. Making it an advantage instead of a limitation brings us back to cost issues.

 

Any thoughts on this subject would be appreciated.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Building "Combat Stims" or "Pep Pills"

 

Go from the special effects. This seems obviously like an Aid to me; and if the player is wanting the ability to basically ignore END costs while spraying around loads of autofire, he probably should pay through the nose for it.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Building "Combat Stims" or "Pep Pills"

 

If the extra END is just for fueling this one autofired power, you could buy the power at Zero-END. And yes, Charges do switch from a Limitation to an Advantage when you have a whole lot of them.

[psyber624]

Re: Building "Combat Stims" or "Pep Pills"

 

Thanks for the responses.

 

The big issue I am having is that I could just buy a ton of END and call it a day (even 100 extra END only costs 20 points). Reduced END affects AP caps too much (especially on Autofire, due to the double cost,) which takes Autofire from situationally excellent to totally worthless. And I want it to cost him (I don't want him to be able to use it ALL the time, but I don't want 1 or 2 uses to render him exhausted either). The issue with using Aid is that the return rate system means its basically a one time thing. After one use the combat will likely be over before I can use the Aid again (unless I use the Increased Fade Rate limitation, but that seems abusive for this (its actually an advantage for this power, not a limitation)).

 

And the charges seems "advantageous" even if I only have a few charges if I am able to stack them. But I think I was wrong about how that works. (I don't think they are stackable, I have to reread the charges section of the rules again.)

 

 

What I was wanting was something that would allow him to use Autofire every now and then without it leaving him totally burned out, without just buying enough END that it won't matter. I liked the charges option as it made the limitation a "per day" concept instead of "per fight" (which increasing END would do as he would easily be able to fully restore END before the next fight.

 

Hrm, maybe a Naked Charges Limitation? I need to go reread some stuff...

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Building "Combat Stims" or "Pep Pills"

 

Why would you even use Increase Fade Rate on an Aid with this power? For a drug it doesn't really make sense, and he is likely to burn though the extra END before it fades anyway.

 

Aid is probably the best choice; it is the mechanic designed for this sort of thing. But just for the sake of an alternative, you could do something like:

 

Stim Shot: +30 END, 4 charges last 5 minutes each (±0), Can only use 1 charge each 5 minutes (-½), Full Phase activation (-½), Concentrate 0 DCV to activate (-½), Gestures (-¼), IIF: Hypodermic needle (-¼). Active: 6. Real Cost: 2.

 

This looks like a biological drug effect, with a duration of several minutes, and it keeps you from taking multiple hits until the previous dose has cleared the system. Of course you have to stick yourself with a needle, so you have to do it either right before combat or from behind cover. It is also considerably cheaper than an Aid would likely be, so the GM would be well within his rights to forbid it.

[psyber624]

Re: Building "Combat Stims" or "Pep Pills"

 

That's kind of the point (and why its and advantage not a limitation). If he burns through it before it fades as an AID he can't use it again (until it fades). I guess the concept is that most people wouldn't have much of an issue with "partially limited" base characterstics. +20 STR (Increased END x2 (-1/2)) is completely legal. Would +20 STR (4 Charges -1) be legal/acceptable? This would be the same thing but as its an expendable characteristic it brings up some rules interactions I am not sure about. Aid is one shot only, VERY expensive compared to normal cost for END (due to Defense ability reduction). Add to the fact that a "charges" option makes it even worse because of the die roll issue (Aid is costed based upon its max effect (ie 6 pts for 1d6 can grant you 6 character points, but may take multiple applications to reach that point. Normally you will need 2 applications to reach max effect))

 

 

My thing is this. If I could buy 50 extra END for 10 points, that I ALWAYS have, with no limits, then it seems that being able to get 50 extra points from time to time should not cost me 36 points and an attack action or 18 points and two attack actions (6d6 AID END, Average END gain is 54)

 

Edit: Nevermind, I just realized where my thought process was going wrong. I forgot about the Only Useable On Self (-1) limitation for AID that brings this back in line points wise somewhat.... Still have the Defensive Ability cost to deal with but its much more cost effective an option than I was thinking it was.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Building "Combat Stims" or "Pep Pills"

 

I don't know about 6e, but Ripper in the Classic Enemies book had +30 STR with 4 charges (or something like that).

 

I forgot about END now being classified as a "defensive" characteristic, which does make it pricey to boost with an Aid. I think that just buying extra END with some kind of limitation to reflect the sfx of the pep pill or whatever would be reasonable, although the limitation might necessarily be small to make it more balanced.

 

I don't recall reading anywhere though that you can't reapply Aid until it would have faded normally, but I might have just missed it. Is that new to 6e or has it always been that way and I have been playing it wrong all this time?

[psyber624]

Re: Building "Combat Stims" or "Pep Pills"

 

Its not exactly that you can't reapply it till it would fade normally, it's that aid has a "Maximum Effect" equal to the max that it can roll on the dice. So you generally can get two "applications" in before you hit the cap, then you have to let it fade as normal. Spending END (or any similar stat increased by AID such as BODY or STUN) does not affect the max effect, you have to track that seperately. One thing that is weird about this (and that I would probably house rule away) is that if your END/STUN is above your normal amount you can't normally use REC to gain back the spent points, but they still count toward maxxed effect till they fade normally, making AID on END/STUN rather odd. (6e1 135)

 

That's why I was thinking of using the Increased Fade Rate limitation from APG, otherwise I would be limited to about 5-10 points of END per turn (1 or two applications fading) after I hit the max, with Increased Fade Rate all the points can be made to expire after one turn, allowing me to get back up to MAX again (and since they would likely be gone by the end of the turn anyway this is definitely an advantage for this use of AID.)

 

Of course now with CC we have the "Increased Max Advantage" back, something that was expressly forbidden in 6e. With that I think I can build something that will work.. (It will be clunkier than I wanted it to be, but should be balanced)

 

The build I came up with was this:

 

Pep Pills: 4d6 Aid END, SER (30 END) (24 Base), Increased Max Effect (+1/4),30 AP Aid Self Only (-1), LP:Cannot take current END above Starting Value (-1/2) 4 Charges (-1) RC 9 pts

 

This allows a character to take an attack action to regain 30 END. The Increased Max Effect will allow him to expend all 4 charges in one combat without dithering with the fade rate limitations if he wishes. The LP is similar to "Only restores to starting values" from 6e, but is slightly different to prevent any weirdness with Starting END and the Max Effect (with the normal limitation you would never be able to hit max effect unless you had 120 END to start with.) Comparing effectiveness this power costs 9 points and gives up to 120 END a day. 120 END would cost 24 points normally, but this power requires you to spend 4 attack actions to gain that level of benefit (which is why I added can't boost current END above normal, otherwise it would be possible to pop all 4 charges before combat and be getting 120 END at 1/2 price). Since it is also limited by the number of charges (so you can't use it to max effect for multiple fights on the same day) this seems balanced, at least to me. For my purposes I will probably add a RAR (Con) and Side Effect (Drain REC) to represent side effects of "drug" use on my character (and to further restrict its use.)

 

Edit: removed 0 END as charges already makes it a 0 END power

[Sean Waters]

Re: Building "Combat Stims" or "Pep Pills"

 

In answer to the original question, here is what I think happens.

 

You buy +X END and eight charges. You use a charge. Your maximum END and current END increase by X. At the end of your phase the END goes away unless you are going to keep spending charges to keep it going: you may want to buy continuing charges. If you do, and you are down END PS12, you recover END, up to your new maximum. When the charge ends, maximum END goes down to normal and current END reduces by however much current END was left in the charge.

 

The only real question is whether you burn your 'charges' END first or last. I don't think it matters, but you have to pick one and stick with it. If you burn it first and some has gone when the END charge ends, when you use your next END charge, it increases your maximum END as normal, but only increases current END by the amount that was in the reserve when you last lost it.

 

If you burn it last then all your normal END goes first (which means that the END pill is usually 'full' when you next use it) but, if the charge ends when you are on low END, you might lose all your remainder and even (possibly) take Stun damage, according to the 'burning END when you have none' rule.

 

A ludicrously drunk GM might let your charged END recover between uses, for simplicity's sake, in which case everyone will want the first one. Unless you are building a berserker's rage.

[psyber624]

Re: Building "Combat Stims" or "Pep Pills"

 

that makes sense. I take it you would have to have a charge up during a recovery in order for the END to recharge after it was used?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Building "Combat Stims" or "Pep Pills"

 

The way I am looking at it is that, in effect, it works as if you always have the END, you just don't always have access to it: that is what the charges do - deny access to the power unless a charge is being used. I appreciate that is nothing like the way StimPilz work: they GIVE you more END temporarily, but it is a useful way to look at if for ruling how the effect should be managed in the game.

 

That would mean that both current and maximum END are affected (i.e. you can recover to a higher total than you normally would be able to). The sticky bit is recovery: can the END you have used recover when you are not using it? I mean, I don;t see why not, really: the END is there just not accessible - there is no reason it can not recover, you just can't use it.

 

One potential way around this (if you see it as a problem) is to build an END Reserve with charges. Basically you build your END reserve as extra END, subject tot he normal charges rule: that increases available END but you can only recover that extra END with the REC you buy for your END reserve, so put in one point of REC, NOT subject to charges, so that clearly works all the time, allowing you to recover the END reserve between combats. Doing this would mean that there is little point in popping more than one pill per combat: they are not additive. This could be explained as the body having a maximum tolerance for StimPilz: perhaps they convert cholesterol int he blood to glucose, and oxygen, giving you a temporary boost, but actually using up the cholesterol reserves, so more is not better: your body needs to recover a it before it can benefit from another boost.

[psyber624]

Re: Building "Combat Stims" or "Pep Pills"

 

Interesting idea, and I tossed around the idea of an END reserve to simulate it, but you then have to buy an Advantage for all powers that want to use it if you also want to be able to use your normal end as well. (you also have issues that you cant normally pay part from one source of END, part from the other.) I think the Increased Max Effect advantage makes Aid useable for this, if a bit pricy. With the appropriate limitations the price can be managed (although I am really wondering if the 4 charges limitation should be worth -1 on this one. The design already limits it to 4 applications per combat, and I am not sure how often multiple combats happen in a day, but my GM side feels that they happen rarely enough that 4 charges of this really isn't that limiting. I am having similar questions about Time Limit as a Limitation on another character I am creating... Mind Control that only lasts 1 turn is REALLY worth -2 1/2 Lim??????)

[Jas]

Re: Building "Combat Stims" or "Pep Pills"

 

Have you considered that the Stim Shot could be something that doesn't, in fact, grant him extra END, but instead Aid's his REC for a while, so that he more radically and quickly recovers his END while under the influence?

[psyber624]

Re: Building "Combat Stims" or "Pep Pills"

 

Yeah, REALLLY not cost effective. To get the same effect (+30 END) you need 20d6 of Aid at SER......... and then you have to wait for post segment 12 for your free recovery (or hope you don't get interrupted or shot at while taking a mid turn recovery)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Building "Combat Stims" or "Pep Pills"

 

Interesting idea' date=' and I tossed around the idea of an END reserve to simulate it, but you then have to buy an Advantage for all powers that want to use it if you also want to be able to use your normal end as well. (you also have issues that you cant normally pay part from one source of END, part from the other.) I think the Increased Max Effect advantage makes Aid useable for this, if a bit pricy. With the appropriate limitations the price can be managed (although I am really wondering if the 4 charges limitation should be worth -1 on this one. The design already limits it to 4 applications per combat, and I am not sure how often multiple combats happen in a day, but my GM side feels that they happen rarely enough that 4 charges of this really isn't that limiting. I am having similar questions about Time Limit as a Limitation on another character I am creating... Mind Control that only lasts 1 turn is REALLY worth -2 1/2 Lim??????)[/quote']

 

Aid is not really cost effective if you can only use it on yourself. Not necessarily a reason not to use it, but something to bear in mind. Whilst you migth well be able to justify giving StimPilz to your mate, that is logistically awkward in combat.

 

Re: Mind Control, clearly not. That's ridiculous. I know that is what it says in the book, but, well, I've said it now.

[psyber624]

Re: Building "Combat Stims" or "Pep Pills"

 

Well, on non-defense powers Aid is basically the same price as the ability itself (SER). Aid costs 6 pts per d6, SER 3. Aid Self Only is -1 making it 3 pts for 3 pts. Of course you have all the other considerations to deal with (Aid requires an Attack Action, costs END to use, etc) to deal with but it is reasonably priced. However the 1/2 effect for adjustment powers that affect defenses really hoses Aiding those. I understand why it is in there, it just makes some abilities overly expensive (and if I was the GM I would probably allow exceptions in certain cases).