5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

[Alcibiades]

(A 5E question, not 6 -- I know 6E has changed the rules for killing attacks somewhat. Despite what my mistyped post heading says.)

 

I'm confused by a couple of things regarding adding damage, killing attacks, and martial arts. (I really think this part of the rules could have been better worded -- in particular, a definition of "base DC" would be helpful.) This is for a superheroic campaign, should that matter. I think this question might be kind of complicated.

 

First, p. 271 of Fred says that the damage done by a killing attack cannot be more than double the base DCs of the attack. I assume that "base DCs" means the amount of dice in the attack purchased (or weapon carried if not purchased with character points). So a wolf from the Bestiary does 1/2d6 with its bite (2 DCs) as its base damage, doubled by its STR to 1d6+1 (4 DCs). However, a little bit down, it is stated that unarmed martial maneuvers are an exception to this. So, the question is: is a claw or bite (as in the case of the wolf) an unarmed attack? If the wolf has Wolf Kung Fu and has purchased +2 DCs for it (halved to 1 for being a killing attack), does this raise its bite attack by zero (since it's already at double the base of 1/2d6) or up to 1 1/2d6 (from increasing the base damage up to 1d6 + 10 from STR)? In addition, assuming that this is the case, do the DCs from martial maneuvers act in the same way, so that if the wolf had no extra DCs for the martial art but did a Martial Strike it would have the same effect?

 

Second, regardless of how the question above is answered, the doubling rule, if taken RAW, seems to make some armed martial arts maneuvers from UMA and published characters completely useless -- in particular common ones like Lunge (aka Offensive Strike). For instance, Black Mask from Champions Universe has a 1d6 HKA (his sword), a 15 STR, and the Lunge maneuver, which gives him +4 DCs. His damage with the sword is already at double the base 1d6 = 2d6 from his strength, seemingly making the maneuver pointless. This is even worse in the case of, say, the Knifefighting martial arts on UMA pg. 54. I assume that a knife has a base damage of 1/2d6 (2 DCs), meaning that it takes a mere 10 STR to double it; thus for all characters other than very physically weak ones, the maneuvers that add DCs do nothing as far as damage is concerned.

 

In both cases above, I suppose the question boils down to: do martial arts increase the base DCs of an attack, or contribute to doubling the damage of the base DCs of the attack? If it is the former, Black Mask's Lunge would do 3 DCs for the base attack + 2 DCs for the sword (4 halved from being a KA) = 5 DCs + 3 DCs from 15 STR = 8 DCs = 2 1/2d6; if it is the latter, he'll do 2d6 regardless of what maneuver he does because the 15 STR already doubles the base.

 

I'm smacking my head against the wall here trying to figure out how to make things work, so help would be appreciated!

[Matt Holck]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

In my group, we have allowed Martial Art DC to add on top of the maximum just as hay-maker would

[Alcibiades]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

I'm thinking that it must be the case that DCs added from martial maneuvers are not actually DCs adding to the base damage, but increase the base damage itself, which then cannot be more than doubled ( so that 1d6 sword with martial strike has a base damage of 1d6+1, which then can be raised up to 3d6-1). Otherwise there is a whole series of published characters and martial arts styles that make no sense, because they are full of maneuvers that do nothing.

[Matt Holck]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

since martial arts dc are 1/2 for Killing Attacks,

the end effect would be the same provided the character has the strength to compensate

[griffinman01]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

I think you had the base damage wrong since the sword is what's being used (4 DC from your example):

 

Martial strike with a 1d6+1 HKA and 15 str:

 

You would get 4 DC from the HKA, 3 DC from the 15 str, and then 1 DC from the strike (since DCs are halved with killing attacks) for 8 DC which equals 2 1/2d6 Killing damage, like you came up with. The base DC is 4 from your sword so 8 is the max you could do, meaning you'd be fine.

 

The rules also state that the GM can have the added DC for the martial maneuvers be added as part of the base (pg 405 of 5th rev under "determining Base damage").

[Alcibiades]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

The rules also state that the GM can have the added DC for the martial maneuvers be added as part of the base (pg 405 of 5th rev under "determining Base damage").

 

I think this was what I was missing. This makes sense, it would make +4 DCs with knives and rapiers do something.

[Alcibiades]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

I think you had the base damage wrong since the sword is what's being used (4 DC from your example):

 

 

My example was mistated; I meant a 1d6 HKA, already doubled due to 15 STR. meaning that the DCs from the martial maneuvers do nothing.

[Matt Holck]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

It's fun to play a 15 strength

[Alcibiades]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

The problem is not the character is weak, it's that he's too strong for the MA to do anything.

[Matt Holck]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

assuming the alignment of momentum and leverage, martial arts should increase with strength

 

a 15 strength character can bench press 2 other characters of 100 kg each

[Alcibiades]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

Yeah they should, but in RAW they don't as far as I can see, barring that bit that griffinman01 pointed out.

 

Since the published characters and MAs seem to imply that griffinman01's "optional" rule is actually generally used (at least in the Champions product line -- I haven't looked at FH etc.), should I assume that they are generally used?

[Matt Holck]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

I couldn't tell you

a role playing group has it's own house rules

 

allowing high damage in fantasy hero is not unusual, while defenses are more expensive

[griffinman01]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

I found something else that'll answer this question once and for all:

 

pg 406 5th edition revised (under the section for adding damage of unarmed martial maneuvers):

 

Extra DCs used to add damage to armed Mar-

tial Maneuvers are considered to be added damage,

not an increase to the base DCs. An HKA 1d6

sword used with a Martial Strike with 2 Extra DCs

(+4 DCs) does 1½d6 damage, but its base damage

is still just 1d6.

 

So, basically if you're using a 1d6 sword with 15 str, any martial maneuvers would be worthless for added damage since you're already at double the base (3 DC from the sword + 3 DC from the STR). If you increase the base damage from the sword, then you could add more damage. Now, even though wolf claws are "unarmed" in that they're not weapons, what the game considers as "unarmed martial arts" is anything that uses just strength with no added HA or HKA. You add damage to those by buying HTH DC for your martial maneuvers which alters the base damage. So, using the book example on the same page, a unarmed killing strike (1/2d6) with 2 DCs goes up to a 1d6, which is the new base damage.

 

Now, I've never ruled this way as a GM. I've always done it, in the case of HKAs with martial maneuvers, as taking the base damage (say 3 DC or a 1d6 sword as we've been using) plus the str (3DC from 15 str) and then add the martial maneuver effect on top of that. So in other words I only care about the doubling aspect for the strength component, not the maneuvers. So I would say that a 1d6 sword with 15 strength and a +2 DC martial maneuver does 7 DC for 2d6+1. If you had 30 strength and used the same sword and the same maneuver, it would do the same damage. It all depends on the campaign and what characters you have in there if you need to go with the RAW. I've never had any martial artists who wanted to abuse bladed weapons so it's always been simple.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

Extra DC's are counted as Base Damage only for Martial Arts attacks, where the MA attack is considered the Base Damage. This includes Martial Arts attacks like Killing Strike, Nerve Strike (NND damage) etc. Other Martial Arts attacks that are considered to be "added damage", Extra DC is not considered to be Base Damage.

 

In general for Martial Arts attacks, the characters STR score is considered the Base Damage. Some GM's like to be generous and allow for the Martial Arts maneuver to be considered the Base Damage if it is greater than the characters STR Damage, that way the damage from the maneuver is not wasted. When adding Martial Maneuvers to killing attacks such as bites or claw attacks, or weapons such as swords and axes (and this even applied to normal damage weapons such as staves and clubs) Martial Maneuvers are always considered to be added damage and the damage from the killing attack or weapon is considered the Base Damage.

 

When applying damage to weapons and attacks, I always add damage from Martial Maneuvers first then add either STR damage or Combat Skill Levels if necessary. This is because Martial Maneuvers (and CSL's) added damage doesn't add Endurance to the attack. Adding STR damage does, so the smart thing to do is use the least amount of STR possible (in the case of a weapon, it should be the weapons STR minimum) and gain damage from Martial Maneuvers and Combat Skill Levels. You do not have to add damage from your STR score first. Don't let anyone tell you that you must. Save on Endurance! (unless of course your Gm tells you that is a new rule, but that would be a jerk move IMO)

[Alcibiades]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

I had not thought about the END aspect (but that's only, what, 1 END?).

 

I have a feeling that Hreo is violating its own rule implicitly in its writeups. For instance, using my previous Black Mask example (near the beginning of Champions Universe), he's got a STR of 15 and a 1d6 HKA (0 END cost, which would matter if Reduced END Cost added to DCs, which I don't think it does) in his sword. Already doubled to 2d6. Then, he has Fencing, which includes:

 

Lunge -2 OCV +0 DCV Weapon + 4 DC

 

A maneuver that exists apparently only to give Black Mask the opportunity to voluntarily reduce his OCV.

 

Both the Swipe and Pounce maneuvers for Red in Tooth and Claw in the Bestiary are utterly useless for almost all of the published animals in the same book, barring ravens and foxes.

 

Maybe it is assumed that the character is doing an MPA of a strike + an HKA (is this legal?), in which case it gets the Normal Damage for the martial maneuver + the HKA?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

If this is for a Superheroic game, keep in mind that your character can Push his sword attack, increasing the Base DC from 3 (1D6k) to 5 (1 1/2D6k) for 10 End. That increases the maximum from 6 DC (2D6k) to 10 DC (3D6+1k). With your characters 15 STR, you increase the attack from 1.5D6k to 2.5D6k. The Lunge maneuver would then add +2 Damage Classes (half of +4DC bonus from the maneuver because it's added damage to a killing attack) to the maximum of 3D6+1k. That can be Black Masks "Desperation Move" when he needs to put his opponent down asap. Martial Arts damage bonus, not wasted.

 

In Heroic Level games, Martial Maneuvers have a bit more utility because of the prevalence of Strength Minimum observance. Characters only get a bonus to weapon damage from their STR that exceeds the STR Minimum. That would mean if Black Masks sword had a STR minimum of 10, then his 15 STR would only net him a +1 DC increase (to 1D6+1k damage) and any damage adds from Martial Maneuvers certainly would not be wasted at all. His Lunge maneuver would then add +2 Damage Classes to max the swords damage to 2D6k.

[Alcibiades]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

Hmmm. So Pushing does not count as added DCs?

[JamesG]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

Hmmm. So Pushing does not count as added DCs?

 

If you pushed your STR, that would be adding DCs. But if you push the base attack, you are not adding DCs, you are changing the base attack.

 

But per page 527 of 5ER you "generally" can't push a power with the 0 END advantage. And I believe you said Black Mask's sword is bought that way. So

NuSoardGraphite's solution won't help Black Mask.

[Alcibiades]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

Yeah weapons are generally bought 0 ENd, even in the Champions books.

[JamesG]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

I'm guessing that published characters assume the "optional" rule pointed out by griffinman01 are in effect. Namely that extra damage from martial arts maneuvers are counted as adding to base damage.

 

Otherwise, as you say, some of the write ups make no sense.

[Alcibiades]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

I'm not seeing the optional rule -- but then it seems that my copy of 5th ed. isn't revised; it doesn't have that many pages.

[griffinman01]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

I'm not seeing the optional rule -- but then it seems that my copy of 5th ed. isn't revised; it doesn't have that many pages.

 

Yeah, that little mention isn't in the normal 5th edition book, just the revised. In any case I'll copy the rule below so you can take a look at it:

 

pg 405

As an optional rule, GMs for many campaigns, such as

most Ninja Hero games, allow the damage added by

the basic Martial Maneuver to count as base DCs

just like HA damage, which avoids the “doubling

damage” restriction for low-STR characters.

 

That's always how I've done it. It makes more sense that someone who has fencing experience can deal extra damage with a blade.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 5E (not 6, 5): adding damage and armed martial arts, the uselessness thereof

 

Yeah, that little mention isn't in the normal 5th edition book, just the revised. In any case I'll copy the rule below so you can take a look at it:

 

pg 405

As an optional rule, GMs for many campaigns, such as

most Ninja Hero games, allow the damage added by

the basic Martial Maneuver to count as base DCs

just like HA damage, which avoids the “doubling

damage” restriction for low-STR characters.

 

That's always how I've done it. It makes more sense that someone who has fencing experience can deal extra damage with a blade.

 

The 5er text is essentially the same as what was posted to the 5e FAQ

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=Hero+System+Fifth+Edition&section=&keywords=martial+art&dateString=

 

Q: I’m still a little unclear on adding damage. Could you provide some more explanation?

 

 

A:

 

• Damage added by a normal Combat Maneuver adds as follows:
  
  • for Normal Damage attacks, +1d6 per +1d6/DC the Maneuver adds
    
  • for Killing Damage attacks, +1 DC per +2d6/DC the Maneuver adds
    

 

The maximum damage the attack can do is double the base attack, no matter how you add to it. The damage from the Maneuver does not increase the base damage of the attack for purposes of this doubling.

 

• Damage added by a Martial Maneuver to an unarmed attack adds as follows:
  
  • for Normal Damage attacks, +1d6 per +1d6/DC the Maneuver adds
    
  • for Killing Damage attacks, +1 DC per +2d6/DC the Maneuver adds
    

However, any Extra DCs purchased for the Martial Maneuver count as base damage. Thus, they allow you to double more damage than you otherwise could.

Note also that damage added by the basic Martial Maneuver is not the same thing as Extra DCs. The basic Maneuver damage (e.g., +2 DCs from a Martial Strike, or +4 from an Offensive Strike) is still subject to the normal doubling rules. (However, as an optional rule, many martial arts campaigns, and other campaigns where martial arts play a prominent role, allow the damage added by the basic Martial Maneuver to count as base DCs, and thus to get around the “doubling damage” restriction for low-STR characters.)

 

• Damage added by a Martial Maneuver to an armed attack adds as follows:
  
  • for Normal Damage attacks, +1d6 per +1d6/DC the Maneuver adds
    
  • for Killing Damage attacks, +1 DC per +2d6/DC the Maneuver adds
    

Any Extra DCs purchased for the Martial Maneuver do not count as base damage. You’re still limited to doubling the base damage of the weapon, regardless of how many Extra DCs you can apply to the attack.

 

....

 

 

Q: Is the base damage done by a Martial Maneuver subject to the doubling rule, based on the DCs of STR a character has? For example, does a STR 10 character (2 DCs) using an Offensive Strike (+4 DCs) do 4d6 damage, or 6d6?

 

A: He does 4d6 — the doubling rule applies to damage from Martial Maneuvers. However, as an optional rule, many martial arts campaigns, and other campaigns where martial arts play a prominent role, allow the damage added by the basic Martial Maneuver to count as base DCs, and thus to get around the “doubling damage” restriction for low-STR characters.