Summon and charges

[Bartman]

I have a slight conundrum. I have a character who is going to carry a small number of missiles, four to be precise. I have already decided to have automatons act as the missiles and use summon to 'activate' them. The problem is I want him to be able to fire them singlely or as a group of 2 to 4.

 

Here is the power as I have it now. Can anyone think of a better way to do this?

 

70 Summon 300-point missile, x4, Slavishly Devoted (+1) (140 AP); 4 Charges (-1), No more than 4 missiles total (-0)

[zornwil]

I don't see any Lims or Advs from what you have that would allow for the Charges to be used at one time.

 

How about Autofire, +1/2 advantage for 4 shots? The rules state that it can be applied to "any Power which could be used offensively". This will allow him to burn all 4 charges at once.

 

Another option is to buy the Summoned missile with Duplication.

[Bartman]

Originally posted by zornwil

I don't see any Lims or Advs from what you have that would allow for the Charges to be used at one time.

 

How about Autofire, +1/2 advantage for 4 shots? The rules state that it can be applied to "any Power which could be used offensively". This will allow him to burn all 4 charges at once.

 

Another option is to buy the Summoned missile with Duplication.

 

Neither of these work. You can't autofire Summon because it specifically doesn't allow you to summon more than the max you could summon at one time. For example. If a necromancer can summon 16 skeletons that is the max he can have at any one point. He can summon less. He can summon more to replace those that have been destroyed. But he can never have more than 16 at a time.

 

Duplication also won't work. These missiles come from the fighter not another missile. Once the first missile has destroyed itself against a target, duplication would prevent the character from summoning any more missiles.

 

Summon has a built in adder that allows me to summon more than one at a time. Thus the x4 in the writeup. This allows me to summon four or less missiles with each use of the power. The four charges allows me to use the summon up to four times, which allows me to summon one missile at a time. and the -0 disad prevents me from summoning 16 missiles total. My question is, it there an easier way to do this.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Bartman

Neither of these work. You can't autofire Summon because it specifically doesn't allow you to summon more than the max you could summon at one time. For example. If a necromancer can summon 16 skeletons that is the max he can have at any one point. He can summon less. He can summon more to replace those that have been destroyed. But he can never have more than 16 at a time.

 

Duplication also won't work. These missiles come from the fighter not another missile. Once the first missile has destroyed itself against a target, duplication would prevent the character from summoning any more missiles.

 

Summon has a built in adder that allows me to summon more than one at a time. Thus the x4 in the writeup. This allows me to summon four or less missiles with each use of the power. The four charges allows me to use the summon up to four times, which allows me to summon one missile at a time. and the -0 disad prevents me from summoning 16 missiles total. My question is, it there an easier way to do this.

 

Whoops, didn't see that Summon had that, sorry, that makes it simple on that count, eh? As you can tell, I was trying to find a way around that, thinking that Summon was one-at-a-time I went with Autofire, assuming GM permission of course. I don't have the rulebook now so I'm not sure I catch on the 4/16 thing you mentioned (the -0 for him not being able to summon "16" missiles total as opposed to the x4 for Summon), but I assume it's correct.

 

Duplication, yeah, but i was assuming the Dup is basically always on (which is also a fudge, I know, given it was the missile, not the character, I didn't worry about it) hence it doesn't matter if one "dies". Still, you're right re it being an issue.

 

I'll have to reread Summon and see if I get inspired. Although I didn't recall that you could Summon more than one creature at a time, I thought whatever max figure you had (as in this case being 4) was your max for a "period" which you defined. Obviously, I'll need to read that part again, which is fine as I have a character with Summon, though his use is more conventional/traditional so this point didn't come up.

[Lord Liaden]

As far as I can see, your construct already gives you the ability to fire one missile at a time, all four at once, or any number in between. Remember, these missiles are not the special effects of an attack Power - they're built as Automatons, essentially independent characters obedient to you. All you have to do is give them their target and the command to attack (by whatever means you've defined for them), and they take off on their own. So, just "order" as many of them as you want to launch. If you want the missiles to be "fired" at your character's normal rank in an action Phase, give them the same DEX and SPD that the character has.

 

If your character can only carry four missiles at a time, and the Summon Power is built to Summon four of these missiles at once, you'd only need one Charge on the Summon. Using that "charge" each day will give the character all four missiles to carry around 'til he needs them.

 

How's that?

 

[Bartman]

Originally posted by zornwil

don't have the rulebook now so I'm not sure I catch on the 4/16 thing you mentioned (the -0 for him not being able to summon "16" missiles total as opposed to the x4 for Summon), but I assume it's correct.

 

The problem would be that the character could fire four missiles. Then he could wait for them to all explode/ be destroyed at which time he could fire four more. And he could do this several times, four sets of four for a total of 16.

 

With only x1 summon 4 charges he could only summon one at a time. That would be appropriate for some guide by wire construction where the character could only control one at a time. But I want all four to be fireable at once.

 

With a x4 summon 1 charge he would have to fire all four at once or lose whatever he didn't fire.

[Bartman]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

If your character can only carry four missiles at a time, and the Summon Power is built to Summon four of these missiles at once, you'd only need one Charge on the Summon. Using that "charge" each day will give the character all four missiles to carry around 'til he needs them.

 

How's that?

 

Interesting. I hadn't thought about that. The effect is that he will be carrying them. They could very well be defined as having been summoned 'back at the lab' so to speak. That saves points as well, one charge vs four. Thanks LL.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Bartman

Interesting. I hadn't thought about that. The effect is that he will be carrying them. They could very well be defined as having been summoned 'back at the lab' so to speak. That saves points as well, one charge vs four. Thanks LL.

 

I think Summon with x1 charge is a little cheesy in that you get the benefit of having them all day long but you're applying the x1 charge to an Instant power. But I think it's essentially correct as LL notes the character just performs the Summon when he leaves the base or wherever. I'd be concerned though regarding the Summon precedent - it implies anyone could just Summon their slavishly loyal being(s) and walk around with him(them) all day. Yes, I realize that introduces disadvantages, potentially, but only depending on the Summoned creature.

 

Think of it this way - it's like putting a x1 charge on a Follower ("he only follows me until he goes!"). I realize Summon is a Power, still, it begs that issue, as Summon is a Stop power and requires some limiting factors for balancing on occassion.

 

I guess the question is, are you willing to have the missiles lost, as this version essentially makes them foci as they are around the character all the time. I realize there's no focus limitation on them, but i think Summon essentially creates a sort of de facto focus once enacted (just as a Follower walking around is his own focus), and that is one of its built-in factors relating to point cost. The reason I highlight this is that it sounded to me like the reason for Summon was as much to get around carrying a focus as for any other reason. Given your response, I was wrong on that count - I just want to assure that you're not expecting that, like a Summon-yet-to-be-manifested, the missiles will be inaccessible to anyone else.

 

If you're okay with that, the construct seems pretty fair and as a GM I'd be good with it. For what that's worth, which really isn't all that much.

 

In any event, nice catch LL.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by zornwil

I think Summon with x1 charge is a little cheesy in that you get the benefit of having them all day long but you're applying the x1 charge to an Instant power. But I think it's essentially correct as LL notes the character just performs the Summon when he leaves the base or wherever. I'd be concerned though regarding the Summon precedent - it implies anyone could just Summon their slavishly loyal being(s) and walk around with him(them) all day. Yes, I realize that introduces disadvantages, potentially, but only depending on the Summoned creature.

 

Think of it this way - it's like putting a x1 charge on a Follower ("he only follows me until he goes!"). I realize Summon is a Power, still, it begs that issue, as Summon is a Stop power and requires some limiting factors for balancing on occassion.

 

I guess the question is, are you willing to have the missiles lost, as this version essentially makes them foci as they are around the character all the time. I realize there's no focus limitation on them, but i think Summon essentially creates a sort of de facto focus once enacted (just as a Follower walking around is his own focus), and that is one of its built-in factors relating to point cost. The reason I highlight this is that it sounded to me like the reason for Summon was as much to get around carrying a focus as for any other reason. Given your response, I was wrong on that count - I just want to assure that you're not expecting that, like a Summon-yet-to-be-manifested, the missiles will be inaccessible to anyone else.

 

If you're okay with that, the construct seems pretty fair and as a GM I'd be good with it. For what that's worth, which really isn't all that much.

 

In any event, nice catch LL.

 

Thanks.

 

The possible ramifications of this power construct are rather interesting. This whole concept of Summoning automaton or vehicle projectiles with Charges came about because there are constructs like guided missiles that just work better built that way, but buying them as Followers or Vehicles means that the points used are lost after the projectile explodes. (I'd be inclined to rule that a Follower with one Charge would be like a Force Field with one Charge - hangs around for a single Phase, then Sayonara, Sucker!)

 

The thing about Summon is that the results of a Summoning explicitly hang around until the Summoned thing chooses to leave or is Dispelled; not unlike Entangle, another Instant Power with lasting effects. So, there's no reason why missiles Summoned would not remain accessible to the summoner for an indefinite period. The single Charge represents the fact that once the missiles are fired or lost, the user would have to fulfill the conditions to recover that Charge before he could get more of them, e.g. go back to his arsenal to stock up on more.

 

I agree that it's reasonable to treat these missiles as de facto Foci of some sort while their user is carrying them. Certainly it should be possible to separate them from the character, maybe even target them separately. One could theoretically also create a Dispel vs. Summon defined as destroying their guidance systems or something similar.

 

Food for thought.

[Vondy]

I hate to ask, but why is this being bought as a summon instead of an attack power with the SFX summoned missile?

 

I'm sure there's a reason. Enlighten me.

[Lord Liaden]

I'm not going to presume to speak for Bartman, just going by my own feelings and what I've observed: Using attack Powers defined as missiles doesn't allow for a lot of the cool effects of rockets, torpedoes etc. that you see in real life and other source material. Those Powers cross intervening space instantaneously, so you don't have the effect of a projectile taking time to reach its target, with the opportunity to try to avoid it, shoot it down, etc. You also can't get into a dogfight with a Power as it closes in on you.

 

On the practical front, using a self-guiding Vehicle or Automaton as the basis for your missile gives you the benefit of an ongoing attack that you can "fire and forget" while dealing with other matters. You may also get a cost break when building something with a really nasty warhead, at the cost of the vulnerabilities listed above.

 

But for me the ability to do something cool and in-genre is the biggest selling point.

[Bartman]

Originally posted by D-Man

I hate to ask, but why is this being bought as a summon instead of an attack power with the SFX summoned missile?

 

I'm sure there's a reason. Enlighten me.

 

Lord Liaden got it exactly. In my case I'm trying to create a bunch of conversions from the Silent Death minatures game. The character in question is actually a fighter. In the game they have a weapon type called torpedoes. They pack a big punch, but unlike every other weapon in the game they are represented on the board. Every other weapon is a roll to hit then roll damage combination.

 

Torps though have an independant movement rating. They also have a defensive value, damage reduction and hits (DCV, Def and Body in Hero terms). They target independantly and act over a number of turns. They even get a coordination bonus if several attack a target simultaniously. They can be jammed (flash or maybe even dispel summon, I haven't decided what works best), spoofed with decoys (images), dodged, and shot at with the ship's weapons. They can even be attacked with other torps. And all of this is vital to the flavor of the game. A simple RKA can't duplicate these effects nearly as well as a summoned automaton can.