5er: Called shots, killing attacks, & increased STUN multiplier advantage

[Surrealone]

Scenario:

A 5er force/energy manipulator with OCV 3 makes a called Head Shot from the Special Hit Locations table using a 1d6 RKA that momentarily forces all matter from a space to form a localized vacuum similar to the vacuum of space ("Blood Boil").  The RKA is AE: 1 Hex Accurate and has a GM-approved +9 STUN Multiplier.  While this AE attack would normally target DCV 3, the target happens to be in an adjacent hex,  so the effective DCV before modifiers are applied is 0 per RAW.  The called Head Shot imposes a -4 OCV penalty per RAW for the Special Hit Locations table, and the target has already acted (unable to dodge or abort), making 4 the effective DCV for the called Head Shot.  Per the previous, the force/energy manipulator must roll 10 or less on 3d6 to make the called Head Shot, and he rolls a 9 -- succeeding.  The follow-up 1d6+3 roll per the Special Hit Locations table yields a total of 5, resulting in a successful shot to the head (as opposed to shoulders, also included in the same group).

 

Question:

5er RAW for a called shot involving killing damage states, "multiply the BODY rolled by the STUNx for the location hit instead of rolling a STUN Multiplier".  The STUNx for a head shot is 5x per the Hit Location table.  So what happens to the +9 STUN multiplier on the force/energy manipulator's power -- since a roll for a STUN Multiplier is, per RAW, not made?
 

 

My first instinct is to add the +9 STUN Multiplier to the 5x from the Hit Location table (for a total of 14x), since that 5x seems to represent a maxxed-out STUN Multiplier (i.e. a die roll of 6 for a STUN Multiplier ... resulting in 6-1=5).  This just 'makes sense' to me, but I'm bringing this up for input because, very technically, the cited advantage adds to a roll that per the RAW verbiage quoted above ... isn't made in this scenario.

 

Note: I already looked in the 5er FAQ -- and this isn't covered -- at least nowhere found by searching within it for 'mulitiplier'.

[Markdoc]

Technically speaking, yes, you add the extra STUN modifier to that for the location, since the STUN modifier from the location is a replacement for your normal STUN modifier and should behave the same way. It's not rolled seperately, it's true - it's rolled as a location instead.

 

Less technically, this is exactly why it is not generally advisable to allow AoE attacks to target hit locations. (See this discussion).

 

cheers, Mark

[Surrealone]

Thanks for the confirmation; I appreciate the second opinion/confirmation on how Increased STUN Multiplier would function in conjunction with a successful called Special Hit Location shot.

 

 

Less technically, this is exactly why it is not generally advisable to allow AoE attacks to target hit locations. (See this discussion).

 

 

 

More technically:

It's not just an AoE, but an Accurate AoE -- meaning dodge, martial dodge, CSL's allocated to DCV, and the like are all applicable (unlike typical AoE's where only dive for cover applies).  In the above scenario, the target got caught after an action (i.e. with his pants down) by an adjacent foe -- and the two taken together are likely the only reason the low-OCV force/energy manipulator could hit him with this attack.  Mistakes like that often hurt!

 

Also, and more technical still, 5er RAW states, "With the GM's permission, a character may target a specific Hit Location with an Accurate AoE attack."  Note that 5er RAW makes a distinction between a Hit Location and a Special Hit Location (they have separate names and tables).  The former is clearly an individual, specific location which requires GM permission to target with an Accurate AoE attack per 5er RAW ... while the latter is a collection/group of specific locations ... with a random element that determines which of them is hit -- with no GM permission requirement being called out for it.

 

​The distinction is a fine point, but it's there.  In the interest of balance, certainly a GM could rule that since Special Hit Locations are effectively supersets of Hit Locations, GM permission is required to use an Accurate AoE to target either of them.  That said, my GM is pretty by-the-book and does recognize fine points ... and the random element (i.e. die roll) to determine which Hit Location within a collection thereof is the resultant target when a Special Hit Location is successfully hit ... is likely enough for him not to invoke GM fiat.

 

 

P.S. The discussion you linked is one I've been following, but this seemed sideways from that discussion since it's about the STUN Multiplier, not targeting.
 

[Markdoc]

Yeah, it's a GM's permission, thing, I know, which is typically taken to mean "You can permit this if you want, but it's not generally an option that is available."

 

Special hit locations are just a subset of hit locations - mechanically, they operate the same. The problem is not hit locations vs. special hit locations, but the use of AoEs against hit locations at all. Rules-lawyering to say "special hit locations are not actually hit locations and therefore don't require GM's permission", is simply trying to twist the clear intent of the rules. 

 

This is discussed in detail in the thread I linked to, but in play, as you indicate in your first post, it is very easy to get extremely high damage output at low cost by combining AoE and hit locations.

 

If your GM is cool with it, no problem: it may fit perfectly within the style of game you are playing. But it's not an option that is available in our games, and as a GM, I'd advise any GM exercise extreme scrutiny before allowing it.

 

cheers, Mark

[Surrealone]

Our game is pretty gritty; player-characters can and do die (as do their foes).  Think heroic level Dark Champions and you have the right idea.  For context, part of the balance in the scenario I posed at the beginning of this is that the force/energy manipulator is a 2 SPD, 8 DEX glass-jaw with limited movement (usually 7" full move) and defenses.  i.e. He's an Average Joe aside from his INT and an extraordinary set of powers ... and he's NOT prone to being adjacent to foes as a result.

 

Typically this character tries to avoid direct combat -- more Average Joe mentality. He's basically a support character who can't hit the broad side of a barn with his VPP powers -unless- he uses AoE, in which case the attack is weak enough to be withstood because of the expense of AoE.  Realistically the points are  better allocated in swaying the combat for comrades with well-placed shields, UOO force fields, TK to emplace barriers, entangles, that sort of thing -- instead of AoE attacks.

 

The scenario, above, entails a 'perfect storm' for the energy/force manipulator -- likely one where he's backed into a corner and has to fight directly.  The likelihood of maneuvering into such a position or finding himself there ... is very, very low ... but if he finds himself in that position, he can really make it count if he gains a positional advantage and catches someone with their pants down (which is tough to do at 2 SPD).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Avoiding allowing AoE attacks to target hit locstions is good advice. A x9 stun multiplier is also ridiculous. No matter what is rolled, the stun damag is going to be pretty high.

[Markdoc]

I would not call it ridiculous - just point out that it's very prone to abuse. It certainly comes with a flashing red stop sign, but depending on the game, it may or may not fit, 

I played game where the PCs - and their foes - threw around 8-10d6 killing attacks. That's certainly well outside the normal power curve, but it worked for that game

 

cheers, Mark

[Hyper-Man]

It's easy to produce broken builds when Advantage stacking.

 

from:http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/51110-wacky-attack/

 

25 The Munchkinator!: RKA 1 point (standard effect: 1 BODY, 42 STUN), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Armor Piercing (x2; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1 1/2), +40 Increased STUN Multiplier (+10) (75 Active Points); Side Effects (GM slaps player upside head for attempting to use such a silly power build; -1), Activation Roll 14-, Jammed (GM smells cheese in the air; -1) - END=0

 

20 Cheeze Wizzer (Limburger): EB 2d6, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2), Continuous (+1), 125 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (+1 1/4), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1), AVLD (Flash Defense Smell/Taste Group; +1 1/2) (80 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (After noticing how cheezy a build this is the GM "accidently" drops some type of cheezy food (nachos, pizza, etc..) on character sheet.; -1 1/2), Activation Roll 15-, Jammed (-3/4), IAF (Belgium Cheeze Wiz ; -1/2), Limited Range (-1/4) - END=[125 cc]

 

25 NEW & IMPROVED Cheese Wizzer (Now with MORE Limburger!): EB 2d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1), 125 Boostable Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (+1 1/2), AVLD (Flash Defense Smell/Taste Group; +1 1/2) (80 Active Points); Activation Roll 15-, Jammed (-3/4), Side Effects (After noticing how cheezy a build this is the GM "accidently" drops some type of cheezy food (nachos, pizza, etc..) on character sheet.; -3/4), IAF (Belgium Cheeze Wiz ; -1/2), Limited Range (-1/4) [Notes: HAZMAT suite not included.] - END=[125 bc]

 

Now updated for 6e:
25 The Munchkinator!: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point (standard effect: 1 BODY, 42 STUN), Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; +1/2), Armor Piercing (x4; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1 1/2), +40 Increased STUN Multiplier (+10) (75 Active Points); Requires A Roll (13- roll; Jammed, Must be made each Phase/use; -1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (GM slaps player upside head for attempting to use such a silly power build; -1) 0

 

HM

[Surrealone]

LOL HM!

 

 

Special hit locations are just a subset of hit locations - mechanically, they operate the same.

 

Actually, they're a group/superset, not a subset.  Also, mechanically, they do NOT operate the same since the location that is ultimately hit (when a Special Hit Location is successfully attacked) has a random element to its determination instead of being a purely player-called shot/location like Hit Locations are.