Levels, Balance and Development

[Pegasus40218]

Low enough that it usually loses to mundane weaponry.

 

 

Well sure, but the OP is having problems with fighters that dominate in a magic-scarce campaign world. So he's either got to reduce the effectiveness of fighters (lower available defenses, weapon DCs, and CSLs), increase the difficulty of obtaining quality gear and training, or bring magic up to a competitive level to counter-balance the supremacy of fighters. Maybe a little of all three. But he's got to do something because his current status quo (magic rare, fighters dominate) isn't working for him.

 

First question:  What's "OP"?

 

If you're referring to my earlier posts, I didn't have a problem with spellcasters being under-powered (nobody chose to play a spellcaster).  My biggest problems came from overwhelming defenses and not knowing how to deal with whether or not they "stacked" and the like.  For example...combat luck and armor...Do they stack?  Why / why not?  Combat luck is not simply resistant hardened PD (though that's exactly what it is in terms of game mechanics)...It represents an uncanny knack for being able to avoid or get out of the way of an attack...maybe it's an ability to roll with the blow so as to take less damage...it could be just about anything (though getting players to define special effects when coming from d20 is like pulling teeth)...So, why wouldn't it stack with rPD from armor?  Also, is there / should there be limits on the number of levels of combat luck you can buy?  If you can buy multiple levels and it does stack with physical armor, then you are going to be in a world of hurt trying to find something capable of injuring a heavy fighter in a magic rare campaign.  This is ONE of the mistakes I made in my early attempts to run Fantasy HERO...On the one hand, I WANTED the players to have better survivability than your common peasant...and combat luck seemed to be an ideal way to contribute to that...but I didn't know how to set limits on it...after all, if the characters get a little bit of money/treasure, why wouldn't they go out and upgrade their armor and weapons?  In d20, this is EXACTLY what they do at every opportunity, often having the party pool their resources to acquire better armor, weapons, spells for one member or another of the group...and it's not entirely a bad thing...but in Fantasy HERO, it does make game balance difficult to maintain.

 

Combat luck is, admittedly, a special case...but it's also difficult to say it doesn't stack with armor since that feels like penalizing the players on something that they paid points for.  My current idea is to redefine combat luck (and it's point cost) with a limitation:  Does not stack with rPD/rED from Armor (or other effects defined as Armor) (-1) [still not completely settled on the -1...could be -3/4, or even -1/2], and would lower the cost accordingly.  This seems like a "fair" approach to me...but I'm still working through it.

 

Also, in a magic rare campaign, one of the challenges is overcoming high DCV due to the relative rarity of area of effect attacks.  Unless you build some sort of martial maneuver that does a "sweep" of a hex (AoE 1 hex accurate), then you're going to be limited to things like flasks of oil and nets for trying to inconvenience high DCV PCs.  Neither of these (to my mind) will be common forms of attack until you start getting into large organized groups, or groups that are hunting the PCs and have knowledge of their abilities.  (Of course, if there's already a standard maneuver that allows any weapon to be used in such a manner, even with penalties, then I missed it...and would be very happy to have it pointed out to me.)

 

I'm committed to running a Fantasy HERO campaign with my current group.  My love affair with the system is a result of the system's ability to be organic -- skills and abilities aren't pigeon-holed based upon character archetypes...If a players finds his character or group lacking in a particular area (such as learning a language, learning to pick locks, finding traps, being stealthy, etc.), ANY character can decide to pursue and develop the necessary skill(s).  This creates, in my opinion, greater opportunities for role-playing, character development, and story development.  Now...I just have to figure out how to make it fun for my group!

[NuSoardGraphite]

First question: What's "OP"?

 

If you're referring to my earlier posts, I didn't have a problem with spellcasters being under-powered (nobody chose to play a spellcaster). My biggest problems came from overwhelming defenses and not knowing how to deal with whether or not they "stacked" and the like. For example...combat luck and armor...Do they stack? Why / why not? Combat luck is not simply resistant hardened PD (though that's exactly what it is in terms of game mechanics)...It represents an uncanny knack for being able to avoid or get out of the way of an attack...maybe it's an ability to roll with the blow so as to take less damage...it could be just about anything (though getting players to define special effects when coming from d20 is like pulling teeth)...So, why wouldn't it stack with rPD from armor? Also, is there / should there be limits on the number of levels of combat luck you can buy? If you can buy multiple levels and it does stack with physical armor, then you are going to be in a world of hurt trying to find something capable of injuring a heavy fighter in a magic rare campaign. This is ONE of the mistakes I made in my early attempts to run Fantasy HERO...On the one hand, I WANTED the players to have better survivability than your common peasant...and combat luck seemed to be an ideal way to contribute to that...but I didn't know how to set limits on it...after all, if the characters get a little bit of money/treasure, why wouldn't they go out and upgrade their armor and weapons? In d20, this is EXACTLY what they do at every opportunity, often having the party pool their resources to acquire better armor, weapons, spells for one member or another of the group...and it's not entirely a bad thing...but in Fantasy HERO, it does make game balance difficult to maintain.

 

Combat luck is, admittedly, a special case...but it's also difficult to say it doesn't stack with armor since that feels like penalizing the players on something that they paid points for. My current idea is to redefine combat luck (and it's point cost) with a limitation: Does not stack with rPD/rED from Armor (or other effects defined as Armor) (-1) [still not completely settled on the -1...could be -3/4, or even -1/2], and would lower the cost accordingly. This seems like a "fair" approach to me...but I'm still working through it.

 

Also, in a magic rare campaign, one of the challenges is overcoming high DCV due to the relative rarity of area of effect attacks. Unless you build some sort of martial maneuver that does a "sweep" of a hex (AoE 1 hex accurate), then you're going to be limited to things like flasks of oil and nets for trying to inconvenience high DCV PCs. Neither of these (to my mind) will be common forms of attack until you start getting into large organized groups, or groups that are hunting the PCs and have knowledge of their abilities. (Of course, if there's already a standard maneuver that allows any weapon to be used in such a manner, even with penalties, then I missed it...and would be very happy to have it pointed out to me.)

 

I'm committed to running a Fantasy HERO campaign with my current group. My love affair with the system is a result of the system's ability to be organic -- skills and abilities aren't pigeon-holed based upon character archetypes...If a players finds his character or group lacking in a particular area (such as learning a language, learning to pick locks, finding traps, being stealthy, etc.), ANY character can decide to pursue and develop the necessary skill(s). This creates, in my opinion, greater opportunities for role-playing, character development, and story development. Now...I just have to figure out how to make it fun for my group!

Easiest way to solve the defense issue: ban Combat Luck. It throws off the balance of the weapons vs Def balanced in the Fantasy Hero book.

 

Remember that the Talents in the book are merely examples of how to design your own Talents. Custom design your Talents to fit with the power level of your campaign.

 

In my case I changed the name of Combat Luck to Toughness and reduced it to +1, +2 or +3 damage resistance (not Armor). Not +3 Def armor per "level" thats way too much.

[Richgee]

I would argue that if you feel that in a low fantasy game that fighters are too powerful then perhaps your game is just reflecting combat in a quasi medieval setting.

 

That said you do have options.

 

Historic weapons have a very real impact on the out come of a fight. If you want to balance the combat perhaps you need to do the research. Every real world weapon has a purpose and you need to focus on simulating their efects in the hands of trained soldiers. A few examples are

 

Bodkin arrows designed to be armour piercing.

Bill hook pole arm used to knock/pull knights off of horse back

Military fork pole arm used to capture limbs and over balance heavily armoured enemies.

 

Heavy bladed dagger used point only to stab soft parts on downed armoured foes.

 

Your man at arms is trained to operate in small groups and combat the effect of the super knight on the battle field. In game terms they have team work and

access to unbalancing/throws martial manoeuvres based on the weapons available. Also they have the ability to over power and strip armour from downed opponents.

 

If you want balance you need to include the anti tank rocket as well as the tank.

[Manic Typist]

OP= Original Post/Original Poster, which can be confusing.

 

Just slap a limitation on Combat Luck that says it doesn't stack with other rPD - you're done. Why don't they stack? Because you, as GM, said so. If you feel you need to invoke a certain rule, or limit a certain rule (or eliminate a Power entirely!) in the name of game balance, that is absolutely your prerogative, and no player could reasonably balk at that. 

 

It is absolutely NOT penalizing not to let it stack, especially if you put a Limitation on it that reduces its cost. They get to walk around with rPD and yet to the naked eye they look vulnerable. It's invisible armor, the dream of powergamers everywhere. You aren't punishing players by ensuring game balance so that you all have fun- you're doing your job as GM to make sure the game can actually work!

[zslane]

If you're referring to my earlier posts, I didn't have a problem with spellcasters being under-powered (nobody chose to play a spellcaster).  My biggest problems came from overwhelming defenses...

 

Yes, I do believe I understand your problem.

 

I was merely pointing out that one of the usual ways in which a fantasy RPG deals with your problem is by establishing magic (especially combat magic) at a level that offsets the dominance of heavy defenses in fighters. The message here isn't, "Your spellcasters need to be higher-powered," it is "your monsters/villains could benefit from access to more powerful combat magic (or psionics or what-have-you)," and that would significantly help solve your problem.

 

But you've chosen to eliminate magic as an offsetting force in your campaign world. That's fine, but you've kind of robbed yourself of a valuable balancing tool of fantasy RPGs, including Fantasy HERO. You could restrict any game system this way and get the same results; I'm not sure that the Hero System is especially vulnerable here. Lots of GMs/groups decide to play in a low-magic setting without really thinking through the consequences of that choice, and when the consequences interfere with the campaign to the degree you describe, re-thinking that choice may have considerable merit.

 

But let's assume you don't want to do that. So what's left? Well, the other usual Hero System tools: limiting character points, establishing active point caps, and maybe even restricting/outlawing certain Talents/Powers.

 

Then there are the non-mechanical rememdies: making high-end fighting gear rarer or harder to acquire, either economically (it costs too many gold pieces, even for most seasoned adventurers), socially (the paranoid King forbids it in his realm), or practically (only one blacksmith in all the realm makes the good stuff).