Sougen

Re: Armour/Power Suit that can retract into a non-functional state.

Your idea #1 is the simplest and best approach, IMO. Place the OIHI on all non-perm powers / abilities. Leave it to special effect how they 'phase out' and 'phase in'. Worrying about trying to build something that is in essence the 'lack' of a power, is odd. The lack of having your power is best design by showing what it takes to get your power (putting on your suit, etc). All other designs to the opposite effect seem ill placed.

Re: Interview with Prometheus writer Jon Spaihts on io9

Personally, I just like my SciFi to be fun and entertaining. I guess I'm the weird one around here because I don't come with many other pre-conditions.

I'm not a fan of camp - no matter the genre- and Star Trek TOS struck me as being too much like that. I did like TNG but the lack of consistency and the last moment techno bable bits did annoy me. Enterprise was good for a lot of itself, but it did start to get a bit repetitive. B5 was one of my favorites; not because of its use of techno babble and whatnot, but because it had a consistent and progressive plot that took time to develop characters you felt you could fully invest in. This is also why I liked StarGate. But the eventual run on of mega villains and convoluted techno blah got to me. The reboot in Atlantis was also good because even if they used techno babble, it felt like we were part of it. That it came at a good time in their reasoning. All in all, a good show.

A lot of the harder scifi out there doesn't grab my attention because it really wants to focus on the strictness of how we understand physics now, and not on the compelling human story wrapped up in it. IT leads itself well to stories of person despair, distress, and the un-yielding environment we are all caught up in, but not much else, IMO. All the other story ideas don't really need the hard sci-fi. It doesn't seem to add to the value - just let certain people geek out about how 'realistic' it is. But to be honest, it is fiction. Its not even 'based on a real story' kind of fiction, it is whole clothe fiction. So, I'm okay with it as coming off as fiction. It shouldn't be ashamed of itself so much as to try and hide itself in the vestiges of 'believe-ability', only shine in the realm of 'compellingness' and 'relatability". ^^

Re: [Xenozoic Tales / Cadillacs and Dinosaurs] Lost technology idea needed.

Wow, it has been forever since I saw any mention of Cadillacs and Dinosaurs. I never played a game of C&D and only ever thumbed through the book at my friends place. So I can't say I got much of a 'feel' for the game but I don't think it ever struck me as pulpish. Also, I think you might get more traffic in the General roleplaying forum.

All that said, I think the undergrowned cities that were a mainstay of the C&D I remember had computers that still could run various functions in the city. Maybe if your city has one on the frits or has already gone down, a quest to find a replacement control program / AI might be good. Maybe they heard stories of a shutdown city that has a still working computer core just 'out yonder'. It gives the Players a environment challenge from the surface creatures. It gives them a since of distance and scarcity by being so far away from home. It also gives them the chance to 'interact' with the locals of the 'what should have been" abandoned city. What strange customs do they have? Maybe they aren't the original inhabitants. What happened to the fore generation? Were the new 'residents' innocent in the previous groups disappearance? How will the players know before it is too late?

As to tech, beyond the Comp Program, there could be a wealth of data that goes with it. There could also be access to various advanced weaponry or vehicles that are more than the gas guzzlers.

Just my two cents. It has been a long time since I saw any mention of the game setting, so my knowledge has all but been lost to the flow of time.

Re: Sign Language

Actually my point was that it is "Rules as Written".

I think your view of "RAW" would mean that anything is possible since the RAW also says the GM should modify any part of the rules they see fit. At this point the RAW gets so abstract as to not mean anything at all. But maintaining a strict view of what RAW means helps us better understand what isn't explicit in the rules. The above example of getting two languages (ish), being fairly clear example of what isn't RAW.

Re: Sign Language

The GM defines everyman Skills. When the character comes from the sub-culture of "Deaf English Speakers", then the GM can just define "thier" Everyman Skills the way you did.

 

Also the GM can delare things to be Free, if he thinks they have little impact. Exampels are Cellphones or Flashlights, but I don't see why this could not apply to a lot of Background skills as well.

Indeed. Although you said it in a less and more direct way than I, that is in essence my point. Is the above RAW? No. Does it absolutely have to be? By no means. GMs can grant any allowances they deem fit for their game given the full context of the character, the setting, and the other PCs.

Actually, the idea of a super hero team that uses sign languages is kind of entertaining.

Re: Sign Language

Thanx' date=' I am finding this informative. So ASL is acapable of funtioning as a "full language? And no base understatnding is needed? In that case...Yes I would consider it a language...though it still qualifys for a discount in my mind...no written form is there? Also no Dialects (AFAIK...) so a point or two off seems reasonable.[/quote']

 

Something more to take note of in the mechanics realm is that "literacy" in fantasy settings is often a point adder - not a subtracter. This is because language, properly understood, centers itself in the 'spoken' word more than any writing form. Moreover, I believe there is a written form to many of the sign languages (not sure which ones do or don't, mind you). As to dialects, I can almost guarantee that there are dialects. I was listening to a speech a couple years back on sign languages (among other things), and they talked about the "phonology" of it being represented in how the hands are moved exactly. Likewise, the use of particular facial expressions to accompany it have various regularize patters that add a personal uniqueness. Given that there are people who natively speak various sign languages, it would not surprise me in the least bit if there was indeed a dialectally standardized method of speech and various regional and social alterations / adaptations that lead to unique syntactic, lexical, phonological, and morphological variations.

 

All that is to say that I believe you will come to find that there is indeed dialects of sign as there is with practically every language on the planet.

 

Also, another option is to give a player the chance to also read and write the dominant language of their area (English, Spanish, French, Chinese, etc), while being able to 'speak' in Sign. To be honest, if I were a GM, I wouldn't think that such a 'grant' would unbalance the game as it still causes a hindrance to communication with everyone else.

 

So, to help clarify, I am imagining Deaf character Janice. The standard rules say that Janice would be allowed one free native level language fluency. Given that she is deaf and learned to speak in ESL, I say that she has a free 4pt lvl command of ESL (written and 'spoken'). But, given the difficulty of communication and the relative low impact I foresee on the campaign, I also give her a 3-4 pt fluency in English writing (obviously she lacks the spoken component). I instruct her that with the freebie I have given her, she would be able to understand and reproduce the content of these boards and practically anything else an educated adult could read and understand in English. She can not, however, read lips with it or anything else. It may even be a problem to grasp certain shortenings that are based on the phonetic structure of English, etc.

 

Is that the rules as written (raw), no. Is it unbalancing in most games? I think not.

Re: Avatar: The Legend of Korra

Found this on youtube just now and it gave me quite a laugh. Hope it does so for you all.

Also, it is most certainly NSFW

Re: Sign Language

If you feel its a full lang. (and it seems you do...) How many points would you charge? I took one semester of German and was able to communicate with' date=' and give complex directions to a German tourist who was lost. Was I a master of the lang.? No, but I could get by just fine....what does that prove? That I have a facility with Languages? Still not knowing what that says....[/quote']

 

Yeah, I am going with Lucius, Sign language (and each variation of them) are separate and full languages. They should be bought as such. There is no particularly good reason for them to be discounted more than any other language is. Now, if you have intimate knowledge of the grammar of the sign in question (syntax, morphology, etc), and you know that it parallels another language, I can see giving discounts to learners who already have high command of the language in question. But that would require a lot of intimate knowledge on the language in question. It is also a reason why I don't really like the "family tree" style of language discounting that HERO has because it forgets that just because two languages have historical connection does not mean they are relatively close to each other in grammar (syntax, morphology, phonetics, etc). And likewise, it completely ignores the fact that just because two languages are not daughter / mother or sister languages doesn't mean they can't share large amounts of familiarity. Japanese and Korean are largely alike in syntax and morphology - just phonetics and lexicon are truly different but they are each completely independent languages with no sisterhood or other such connection. Likewise, English and Sanskrit are sister languages but share nothing in common.

 

As for your ability to speak German, if you found yourself being able to fluidly communicate in German after only a semester of study, I would have suggested continued study. People with that kind of raw ability are few and far between and it could have been something to make a career of. Now, if per chance what you mean is that Germans were able to make sense of your only mildly coherent expressions, that is another thing. There is a wealth of difference between ordering off a menu and holding an actual conversation. I, now a year after I did my one year of Japanese could probably still order off a menu and, if the speaker was slow enough, understand and give directions. I can not under any circumstances read even a children's book. At least not without a bilingual dictionary and a lot of time.

Re: Evil doubles from another dimension

In one game we met not our evil doubles per se, but rather our evil post-apoc selves from the future. One of the characters does something to cause the apoc and the rest of the team apparently ended up turning on him (probably for good reason). Our team consisted of the guy who would cause the problem and two others. Their team consisted of of one of our current team, one of our teams past character (who left and was replaced with another PC - same player, though). And then one NPC who had just been introduced to the PC who causes all the troubles. It caused us worry that one of the current team was shown as being present in the future verse, too. But we never got a clear answer as to why. And the PC character that caused all the troubles was assumed dead in the future verse but no body was ever found so when he (our version) showed up, it caused a lot of alarm.

In retrospect, it was way too believable that the Player in question might cause an apoc. And after the story arc ended it, it stayed with him so that he was always trying to figure out exactly how he would cause it (probably leading him to be so paranoid as to actually cause it! ).

Anyway, that's my tidbit.

Re: A Thread for Random Videos

Well, its Saturday morning and rather than recovering from a late night, I seem to be up watching a lot of TED...

Anyway, here is another good vid:

http://www.ted.com/talks/amory_lovins_a_50_year_plan_for_energy.html

Re: Make Your Own Motivational Poster

I always ruin those jokes because I read the text first.

What? There was text? ^^

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

I can't remember, is the TSAR bomb the largest nuclear weapon ever detonated (well, largest weapon period, really)? Also, did anyone ever try to make anything larger with success?

Re: A Thread for Random Videos

Although I enjoyed the video, I really can't understand the appeal of vocaloids. Their voices are so hard to listen to.

Re: Beaks and Speech

I just tried every "I" sound I've ever heard in English or Japanese' date=' including dipthongs, and none of them absolutely require lips, or are even very difficult to do without moving your lips. I am now curious what sound some of you are attributing to the letter "i". Wish I could type using the phonetic alphabet from my phone...[/quote']

 

A defining characteristic of most vowel sounds is their low use of lips. The English vowels encoded with will very rarely require lips - indeed, the use of lips would generally cause the sound to no longer the the standard English version. Now, to accurately produce the English /o/, or /u/ (and another that I can't type on my comp), require the lips. In particular, they require the lips to be rounded so as to create the correct sound. Now, if you don't round them, you are indeed making a different sound than English normally tries for but because it is a sound without discrete value (phonemic value) in English, it will normalize to the closes acoustic sound that does exist in English. Thus, an unrounded /o/, no matter how different it is in reality, will still be heard as its rounded /o/ brethren.

Re: Sign Language

I'd call Most sign lang.s an Expanded Literacy 1 pt...you don't know a new lang...just a new "alphabet"....

To the best of my knowledge, you also know a new set of grammar too. I could be wrong (never studied sign lang), but to the best of my knowledge, American sign is as distinct from American English as English is from Spanish. Some things are indeed shared but the syntactic, morphological, and of course phonological rules are distinct and different.

Re: Beaks and Speech

The term you looking for here is Phonology, it's generally accepted that English has 24-25 Consonant and 19-23 Vowel sounds (depending on which linguist and which dialect is being presented), for a total in the range of 45-50 distinct sounds in the spoken language.

 

Not to be mixed up with the Phonetics, which is a different idea of speech transmission.

 

Also - you're confusing the conversation for what Birds Can Do and the OPs question of What Would A Race Of Beaked Creatures Sound Like;

Although I veered away from using the words phonology and phonetics and a whole host of other such words, I'm well aware of them given that my degree is in linguistics. And as a side note, English (at least American English) is accepted to have about 10/11 discrete (possessing phonemic distinction) vowel sounds. There is some variation but rarely does it drop below 10 nor rise above 11. Now, maybe someone is trying to account for dipthongs as being wholly different and also including simi-vowels, otherwise the 19-23 range would be hard to achieve.

As a side note, Phonetics is the study of sound production: a very mechanical field. Phonology is the study of a language's use of sounds: pattern / rule generation, acquisition, adaption, etc.

Last thought on this tangent of phonology, as an issue of phonology, humans have a tendency to 'hear' X sound and think it is Y sound because X doesn't exist in their native language but is relatively close to Y in acoustic value. This is why we also have a tendency to hear certain sounds from animals and think they are saying reasonably well formed words in our native language even though the acoustic values are quite different.

---

But at the end of the day, I was trying to echo the comments of the earlier posters on this thread about what sounds a bird like creature could make. Certain sounds would be generally absent from their speech. It would have a variety of other sounds, though. Many of which you make good point to note. It could also likely produce many of the sounds native to human speech (t, d, k, g, and r to name but a few). What the exact sounds that would exist would be determined by a lot of biological issues (glottis control, nasaling ability, fine motor control of tongue, exact specs on oral cavity). But then again, those would determine the upper max available, not what is actually used. English uses less than a forth of the total sounds available to humans (uses in the sense of discreteness - phonemic distinction), and other languages use a third of English's usage but still can convey the same level of information. There is no reason to assume birds would need more than a handful of discrete sounds nor that they couldn't use an extreme range either.

Perhaps the biggest determinate in a 'beaked races' sound production for language will be on how that language is used. Will they need to convey information over great distances or short? If the latter is true, low tone sounds more akin to human language will probably prevail. If the former is the case, high pitch squawks and sounds that can travel a distance before losing acoustic value will prevail. This would also have major effects on the culture of the race, too.

Re: Beaks and Speech

In the Ruleset of Hero, the difference is not to take a complication.

 

And we were talking about "how would a species of sentients with beaks" communicate, both for the rules aspect and how to modify their speech.

Christopher, I do not think you and I are talking even remotely about the same thing here. I'm now quite confused why you have been quoting me at all. I have from my first post never mentioned HERO or any rules therein. I have been talking about general biology and linguistics. You have quoted me and continued forth with saying I shouldn't make assumptions about dolphins and whales to which I responded; once again without ever referencing HERO. So you'll excuse me if I'm a tad bit perplexed by this sudden move to talking about HERO.

Re: Beaks and Speech

You mean the same distance as between a Bird and a species of Sentient beings with Beaks?

No, there is a light year of difference between animal communication and actual language.

Re: Beaks and Speech

You seem to operating on the idea that bird sounds are somehow extremely mysterious to us. By looking at bird heads we can know with great precision what sounds that can and can not hear. We can know with great precision what sounds they can and can not produce. And we have all the tech needed to record, measure, and analyze all those sounds with as much precision as any bird ear. But the noise being made hasn't been show to indicate discernible patters akin to language. Communication, yeah. Language, no. There is a light year of difference between the two.

Re: Beaks and Speech

But is that a function of ther limited ability to creat sound, or of lacking the brain parts/size needed for it?

 

Also, we have not fully analyzed Doplhin/Whale sounds yet. So don't go on makign asumptions about them talking about the past or future. And for making up new words: What exactly is a Bird doing to describe the Sound of the Bell of a Ice Mobile? Repeating them.

It isn't the limited nature of the sounds they can produce. Again, there are animals who can produce far far more than 10 discrete sounds but have no 'language', while there are human languages that only require ten sounds. It is a matter of the brain of any given species having the resources needed to develop a language center. The evolutionary process doesn't favor language. Communication, yes. Language, no.

Likewise, I'm not making any wild assumptions, I am communicating accepted fact in the linguistic community. There are indeed creatures who can break some of the barriers for gaining access to actual language, but no animal has been shown to break them all. Bees can move out of the limited nature of the now and talk about far off places. This is a functional aspect of all known bees and one that is necessary for their survival. The ability to create new words inside a single lifetime isn't, though. Bees lack this because it is not normally necessary for their flourishing. These issues with being able to acquire full language are rather tough challenges.

As to whales and Dolphins, I know their is a lot of myth surrounding them, I know there is a lot of love for the idea of the intelligent sea brethren, but there isn't enough evidence to support the idea that they have language. Complex communication is about as far as current research has gotten. And this isn't a matter of analyzing the 'sounds' they produce, it is a matter of analyzing what other members of the species do with the sounds they hear. How does it affect their behavior and is there honest reason to suggest that the sounds communicated in the complexity that is language. That is the weak link in the Dolphin and Whale font.

Many animals have complex communication, none but human has been shown to have language. Something that is inherently abstract / arbitrary, capable of communicating about events that have, are, and will happen; and of the here, there, and way over there; capable of formulating, expressing, and explaining new lexicon adders inside a single lifetime, and capable of the infinitely complex string of communication. Chimpanzees were once thought to have the ability to learn human sign as a language and not mere communication - many researches tried to press the idea that they were breaking the barriers and creating new thoughts and discussing non-now events. But at the end of the day, there wasn't the evidence to support it but a lot of bias on the part of the researches to question it.

As to the bird example you listed, I'm not sure what you were trying to convey. Is there a specific event you are talking about?

PS: although I've mentioned sound and that is the standard medium by which language is thought to be conveyed through, it isn't the only one. Bees use dance and chemicals. Chimpanzees were using sign. There is far more to language than just the medium chosen to convey it.

Re: Beaks and Speech

Yeah.... but imo to communicate complex' date=' abstract (or non-abstract) concepts, one needs a fully-realized language that would be more than "Whistles, with clicks for emphasis. Chortles. Clucks. Screeches".[/quote']

 

While I agree that language is the key foundation for communication of such ideas, I think it is a misnomer to think that language is define by the sounds made. English, for example, has around 35 discrete sounds (forgot the exact number). But there are languages with as few as 10 or so - heck one language has well over 100. But I find it hard to believe that English speakers have a harder time communicate than the others. What is classically considered important for something to pass the language threshold is the ability to Alter and create new "words" and thus not be limited to a generationally specific lexicon, for it to be able to reference concepts out of the 'now', thus being able to communicate about the past, the future, the here and the over their; and for it to be able to embed upon itself so as to have the ability to create infinitely complex and long streams of communication. For that reason, no animal communication has been seen to able to mach human language. Bees can talk about the "over their" but can't create new words and thus are limited to the lexicon they were given at maturation.

Re: Beaks and Speech

I'd have to side with all the people who already noted that they would sound the way they sound ^^. Certainly there are certain human produced sounds that would be difficult to imitate much less reproduce. Some sounds that require the existence of dynamically mobile lips would indeed be hard ( /M, B, P, W, U, O/ for example). Depending on the nature of their nasal cavities, things that require nasality would also be hard ( /N, M, Ng/ ). Also, I'm not sure if they have uvulas, but sounds that use the uvula would likewise be hard. Then there is just the general question if their oral cavity is set up in such away as to be able to create the sound compressions needed to generate the whole host of other sounds we produce. Or if their tongue has the level of mobility as ours. And wither or not they have a great deal of control of their glottis so that they can voice and unvoice various sounds.

So, could they mimic human speech? Probably not too well unless they were very strange beak bearers. Could they have their own oral language, yeah, easily. There would probably be a variety of vowels, several different kinds of fricatives and perhaps the interior plosives (stops). They could even make use of various clicks and such depending on the exact nature of their mouth. And then there will also be a whole host of sounds that they could possibly make that we don't. Then there would also be issues regarding the sensitivity of their hearing. If they can greater variance in sounds than us, then they could also have the ability to make fine distinctions in sounds that we don't already do (and to be honest, human ears have a great range for detecting difference given that we can make and detect well over 100 discrete sounds).

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Re: Make Your Own Motivational Poster

Ja' date=' blånn må då vara, fast I finn it åt levern![/quote']

 

That's what she said?

Re: Make Your Own Motivational Poster

Yeah' date=' me too. I'm actually in the process of learning Japanese for work. I work for a Japanese company, and while it isn't required to speak Japanese, it would make my life a lot easier if I did.[/quote']

 

Back when I tried to study Japanese, The Rose would help us out. If you want any help, send him a PM. He tends to like to help people trying to learn Japanese.

 

And good luck! I gave up after a year in college (then again, I only did it to fulfill a degree requirement).

Re: Sign Language

I have the same feeling about apply gestures and not usable in the dark. There are generally certain limitations on language that we just accept as 'standards' and not worthy of price reduction. Spoken language can't be done in vacuum or in truly loud places. Do we discount it for that? No, we just realize that is the nature of the beast. Likewise, we don't require incantations for it either. We just accept that they can't talk while performing incantations.